8 x 200ah batteries die after 18 months

HelgeA

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Good evening
I have a SQ58/2012, I suppose the electrical system of the SQ65 is more or less the same. If so you have 2 batteries for starting the P engine, 2x for the SB engine and 4x domestic. If you have really 8 batts for domestic then you should have 12 in total.

In your engine room at the heavy duty 24V panel should be a Victron battery monitor. Not the best place to see the actual status, it is used to indicate via a LED at the lower helm to charge the batteries.

The batteries are all connected together via a controller form Energy Solutions. When the voltage goes down to a certain value (25.?V if I remember well, I can check if needed), the starter batteries are isolated from the domestic bank. Then only the domestic bank delivers energy. When staring an engine, the domestic bank is connected for some seconds to support the starter bank.

The SQ58 has originally 4x starter and 4x domestic(all 200Ah), I have added 2x domestic with the stern thruster. That gives me 600Ah domestic + 400Ah supportive starter. I can recalc the actual energy when I find the exact trigger voltage when the starter bank is isolated. I was not too happy with the Battery monitor in the engine room, so I installed additionally a Philippi BTM which sees only the domestic bank and gives me a more precise information about the real charge status.


Power consumption: When you drain 20A at anchor you should be able to reduce significantly without loosing comfort. I need 5-10A with 2 fridges, TV‘s on standby, WIFI and always something charging. My wife does not like the generator, so I installed a fuel cell which delivers 4.4A = 100Ah in 24h. As described in former posts, with the standard charger you can't get this in one hour generator time. Espresso is done with the Inverter, for all other higher power needs I just start the generator. For several days at anchor I do not need to start the genny just for charging(but of course for cooking) and I never drain the batteries below 70%. My batteries are now 5 seasons, and I do not see a degradation yet. So they should last one more year, then I consider a change.

My batteries are originally installed by Fairline (+2 by EBY with the stern thruster) , same type. Anyway, they look the same, and I suppose they are AGM, but there is not any label on top. I need to take out one and see if there is an indication. Does anybody have an idea which batteries could be installed?
Greetings
Helge

PS: Just see your post that you are a host for 8-10 persons on board. That, of course, changes everything. My consumption is for 2 only.
PPS: I am surprised that you hear your genny only in the master cabin. I am quite unhappy with my installation: sound, vibration and smell.
 

jfm

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Milo I find that I want the stabs on at anchor most days so the genset runs all the time, hence of course battery charging is a non issue because they're always 100%. When the wind dies in the evening I turn genset off for some peace and quiet, but the batteries can easily cover that couple of hours.
IMHO this whole concern about running the genset at low load is worrying about nothing. Sure, it can glaze the bores after a LOT of low load running, but do you really care? Ever suffered a glazed bore? What does it really mean? Does it give you a toothache or what? A whole new Kubota engine for your genset is three grand or something and would almost fit in your suitcase. This glazed bore thing is a complete non issue imho
 

jrudge

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Really? Okay that's good to know, thanks...

The standard set up is 8 batteries at the bottom of the lazarette.

2 port, 2 stbd and 4 house.

Bugger to get to if you have lots of crap in the Lazarette!

Where are your batteries? I assume you have 4 additional ones placed somewhere ?

This thread is drifting and I have contributed to that, but I suppose the issue is why your installation is failing.

The answers are along the lines of ....

a. it just will because of an inverter ( maybe, but if this is the case then the real issue coming out of this thread seems to be battery charging and % drain more than anything else - but still huge loads will probably take their toll)

b. faulty kit. This is possible but the odds of 8 batteries going is relatively low. But that said I had 4 go!

c. The installation . design. This could cover a multitude of sins from how much charging capacity was installed, how the batteries are physically wired ( i did not think it mattered but the Anna Geek battery threat put us all right on that - and with a huge bank and big current draw this will i assume be more critical), where they were cited ( JFM has air conditioned batteries ( did we really expect anything less!) so if yours are spread all over the place ( wiring issue) and get hot ( location issue) that could be a cause also. Did Fairline hoof it of did they get Victron to design the system ?

Given the time you spend on Anchor I can see on reflection that a small geni might do something - but it probably has more to do with redundancy than anything else ( we had 5 days of gen issues in the summer and could not really move far until it was fixed ... no cooking, no AC, no water maker, no battery charging etc. ....)

Post some pics and lets take a look at how it is all put together.
 

jrudge

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Hi Jeremy

I really just want my 8 x 200ah gel battery bank to provide daytime 'background' 240v power for low consumption applications as worked very successfully on my last boat. I just don't understand why all 8 of them have died so quickly!!


Who designed and installed the S58 setup, and what is different? Battery location? Kit? Etc.
 

Hurricane

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The standard set up is 8 batteries at the bottom of the lazarette.

2 port, 2 stbd and 4 house.

Bugger to get to if you have lots of crap in the Lazarette!

Where are your batteries? I assume you have 4 additional ones placed somewhere ?

This thread is drifting and I have contributed to that, but I suppose the issue is why your installation is failing.

The answers are along the lines of ....

a. it just will because of an inverter ( maybe, but if this is the case then the real issue coming out of this thread seems to be battery charging and % drain more than anything else - but still huge loads will probably take their toll)

b. faulty kit. This is possible but the odds of 8 batteries going is relatively low. But that said I had 4 go!

c. The installation . design. This could cover a multitude of sins from how much charging capacity was installed, how the batteries are physically wired ( i did not think it mattered but the Anna Geek battery threat put us all right on that - and with a huge bank and big current draw this will i assume be more critical), where they were cited ( JFM has air conditioned batteries ( did we really expect anything less!) so if yours are spread all over the place ( wiring issue) and get hot ( location issue) that could be a cause also. Did Fairline hoof it of did they get Victron to design the system ?

Given the time you spend on Anchor I can see on reflection that a small geni might do something - but it probably has more to do with redundancy than anything else ( we had 5 days of gen issues in the summer and could not really move far until it was fixed ... no cooking, no AC, no water maker, no battery charging etc. ....)

Post some pics and lets take a look at how it is all put together.

I agree with you.
All this doesn't "stack up"
Our boat is virtually the same size with similar requirements and similar equipment drain.

All our batteries are in battery boxes in the engine room.
Total of 10 batteries.
4 batteries connected as 2 banks of 2 - independently start both engines.
The other 6 are house batteries and are connected as 3 banks of 2 giving (in theory) 187.5ah (50% of 3 banks at 125ah)
As I have said before, it is very easy to run the service batteries down and damage them - I've done it several times.

There is one more stand alone battery for the generator (start battery) but that doesn't count in any of these calcs.

I am now seriously considering solar panels to help the batteries recover from an overnight discharge.
Yes, the solution IS to run the generator for longer but I just don't want to - it isn't the noise per se - it is just that I don't like leaving it running.
When you are anchored in a nice quiet bay, swimming around the boat etc, you don't really want a smelly diesel engine running.
Just try leaving your dinghy by the generator exhaust and you will see how much soot is coming out.

Maybe this is a problem more akin to boats of our size - i.e. not big enough for us to think like JFM and MYAG but big boats enough to have big fridges, freezers and other electrically hungry kit that the smaller boats don't have.
More of an ethos problem.
 

John100156

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Yep John
Those were my calcs as well.
I've not given up on this idea yet but the Raspberry Pi idea doesn't work when there are so many really good controllers out there.

Come on Mike, that's boring, I bet you haven't found a PV controller that talks to you.....!

Seriously though, there are some high-efficiency panels in development, that incorporate a bio-film that refracts light increasing absorption but we a few years away yet. I have designed a couple of 200 panel arrays, one for Anglian Water in Peterborough, at the time there was some serious investment in R&D, Samsung, Mitsubishi and Panasonic, but when the Government changed the Feed-In Tariffs, which increased payback beyond 10-12 years for a typical 4kW array most pulled-out which is a real shame. I believe Panasonic have some HIT(?) panels out that looked good when I last needed to gen-up.


If you are intending to spend a lot of time on the hook, its a no-brainer in my opinion. Lots of benefits, with very few drawbacks (I do accept that with AC and like, you will of course need the gennies on). Particularly when leaving the boat to go ashore, when you would likely switch the gennies off...!
 

Portofino

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JRudge is right @# 65 --- there's something wrong ---big time --it should all work without knackering the bats in 18 M .
Remember the Op says he genys up at night for the AC .

Deep discharges vs light discharge

It's a number game for example and it's just a mathematical illustration -don,t flame me for it but ---
You could have 1200 discharges to 75-80% light or as low a 3-400 deep say less than 50 %
40-50 to even lower 30 %
Or less 5-10 down to flat ie only 2% left .
It's not linear .
So what we mean by "knackered " is they have -imagine a graph- been discharged enough times .
So in 18 months with 12-14 weeks afloat usage ,some at anchor ,realise not all-they must have had maybe only a few as low as 20-30 deep ish to below 40-50 % -bearing in mind a 100ah charger for 800h is not enough its 1-8 should be at least -so even with charger on all night (with the AC ) they never really had a chance !
1to 4/5 for acid or 1to 3/4 for AGM .-JFM suggested stacking 3x100ah to try and get this ratio restored -with bat temp sensors as well -good call
The inverters are for want of a better expression ripping the shit out of not fully charged bats during the day .

Pink elephant in the corner is fraid is run the Geny more .
Change your day time power use
Or a allready said ---
Re spec more charger ah with faster grabbing -none lead acid bats .
You could fit a divice like Bart has ---to auto Geny up @ preset bat drainage -say 60-70 %
The higher % the longer they last -you set it
18 M is a bit short
 

MedMilo

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IMG_6160.jpgIMG_6165.jpgIMG_6163.jpg

Okay here are a few pics of the installation. The white box in the first pic is the custom built box on the top of which are four of the domestic bank - the second pic shows the other four domestic batteries. Together these make up the eight domestic batteries. The engine start batteries are between the engines under the floor plate - there's still some debate as to whether only one engine has a dedicated starter battery or both of them do - BUK are investigating!

Not sure whether the pics help to explain much but one thing that seems likely is that there'll be multiple cable lengths etc to the chargers are heavy duty breaker panel and certainly one of the banks is in the ER so temperature might be an issue.

BUK's current thinking is that the white box is replaced with a small 5kw Onan genny - so we'd have that and the bank of four domestic batts in the port stern quarter only - and they'd change these from gel to AGM/lead acid. The batts weigh c60kgs each so removing four and replacing them with a 170kg genny isn't really an issue. Apparently the starters shouldn't be gel anyway (due to the big hit when you crank the engine which is better suited to lead acid?) so the whole battery set up would be lead acid and therefore the chargers can be set accordingly (on the basis that you can't charge a mixed gel / lead acid bank with one charger).

Not sure whether that helps or hinders but for the record I'm enormously gratefully for all the detailed and carefully considered posts submitted thus far!
 

Hurricane

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View attachment 60938View attachment 60939View attachment 60940

Okay here are a few pics of the installation. The white box in the first pic is the custom built box on the top of which are four of the domestic bank - the second pic shows the other four domestic batteries. Together these make up the eight domestic batteries. The engine start batteries are between the engines under the floor plate - there's still some debate as to whether only one engine has a dedicated starter battery or both of them do - BUK are investigating!

Not sure whether the pics help to explain much but one thing that seems likely is that there'll be multiple cable lengths etc to the chargers are heavy duty breaker panel and certainly one of the banks is in the ER so temperature might be an issue.

BUK's current thinking is that the white box is replaced with a small 5kw Onan genny - so we'd have that and the bank of four domestic batts in the port stern quarter only - and they'd change these from gel to AGM/lead acid. The batts weigh c60kgs each so removing four and replacing them with a 170kg genny isn't really an issue. Apparently the starters shouldn't be gel anyway (due to the big hit when you crank the engine which is better suited to lead acid?) so the whole battery set up would be lead acid and therefore the chargers can be set accordingly (on the basis that you can't charge a mixed gel / lead acid bank with one charger).

Not sure whether that helps or hinders but for the record I'm enormously gratefully for all the detailed and carefully considered posts submitted thus far!

Have you thought about solar panels?
Thats my favored route - can't see the point of another (smaller) genset.
 

Portofino

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Did not realise you had two 100ah if they work correctly then that's a1-4 charge /cap ratio in theory -but they never really put in what's on the label only a % of 100 each .
How ever with a cut down from 800 house to 400 house then that ratio is looking better -if I understand correctly the proposed plan is to 1/2 house bat cap?
Here's a link from Dolphin see pages 22-26 re install and wire size and L
http://www.dolphin-charger.com/en/p...es/produits/pdf/user-manual-dol-pro-fr-en.pdf
I know yours are different ,but I think the basic principles apply .
(ABS brakes work the same in Audi ,BMW and Merc for example )

Slightly confused re bat spec -there basic and cheap Lead acid ,which take ages to ram charge in -that's the point .
Then gel and AGM ,-the AGMs are actually best for really deep cranking ,big stuff it's the choise for heavey plant etc which share the 12-30 L diesel engines our boats have ---I think .
AGM s allow more rapid -stuffing of charge ,but are temp sensitive and the suggestion is to link temp sensors to charger or if poss as per JFM -relocate in a cooler place - which is not an option .
The charge -stuff rate only decrease marginally anyhow if in the E-Room ,but one has to accept ATBE they will last longer
Say guess 7y in a cooler spot than 5y in a hotter place -there's so many other variables like number of deep discharges and being left off float -that ultimately override bat life -rarther than where they are in real world use .

Normal arrangement re starters
We have two sets of AGM s in the E room only 2x 185ah bank -out board to the engines -the charger incidentally is less than 1/2 M away from the house bats above them .
It has 3 outlets -two are used ,one for each bank .
Port is dedicated engines st ,Stb the house .
The port start both engines -2x185 ah for MAN 13 L straight 6's .Assume v8, and v 12,s need more oomph to turn
There is a x-over switch called "Parallel " on the dash -this will connect the house bats (stb) temporarily to the starter( port)
It works I know as see another thread from Deleted User we had a charger issue and on a short trip the bats were struggling -they relied on a long alternator /cruise .
You could have your engines with two sep Bats for each side -but now 3 groups instead of two --why ??-more potential hassle re wire size /L issues --me thinks
I guess a x-over switch from each either way incase one fails ( for what ever reason ) Or a x-over from house ,so you can grab some of that ,.
You defo need some sort of x-over function .Are you sure there is not one ?
We also have a v small bosch dedicated Geny bat charger for 45 ah lead acid -car shop type -but we have a tiny 400cc Yanmar 3-5 Kv
Both chargers have seperate breakers on the pannal ---and there's a x -over switch in the E -room by the Geny to grab 12 v from the 24 V system ,should the Geny bat no work .
Sod law and boats go hand in hand ----I know that works .(left if diconected once )

So if you go down the smaller donkey Geny route -

--get them to fit a 24 to 12 x over ( cos Geny willbe 12 v ) for it .

Get then to fit a dedicated 12v bat and charger /float /conditioner €100 tops each

Do what Barts done fit a V sensor that auto starts it -to mitigate deeper than normal discharges -they recover,but you have shortened there life more than necessary .

Finally get or repair a main engines x-over .

Looking at the pic re little Geny install to min resonance they do not like being put on a flat surface .
Mines Mase - us in a gage rubber mounts fixed to bearers .Inside that gage is the Geny agian rubber mouted to the gage -kinda twin mounted .it's hollow underneath -as aircooled are the windings -so needs air from the bilge which v shape and thick GRP --I hope!-then sea
It works no vib of resonance -whole thing on the other sides and top has a sound proof box ,which I have installed extra lead self adhesive sound proofing .
In the previous boat the Fischer Panda was stud on a flat surface in its box this flat surface just acted as a resonator .
Sunseeker need a slap on the wrist for that .
There's also a super silent exhaust kit too as an extra and consideration should be given to positioning the water and gas outlets .
What ,iam trying to say here is that there's instal and "instal " of tiny genys .
As another layer of sound proofing I have thought about making a tea cosy out of something to drape over it to really kill off those last few decibels ?
 
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Portofino

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Have you thought about solar panels?
Thats my favored route - can't see the point of another (smaller) genset.

Is he not walking down a path to sq 1 ---- the inverters "ripping the shit " out of the bats? --having to fire up the "beast "
Busy boat guests wanting hot water etc and 220v for little things like divice chargers .
Assume will have some inverter ability ,but now 1/2 ed due to 1/2 house bat bank ?

As an aside Med Milo -from an earlier post here -- re you and wife drawing the short straw at night sleeping next to the Geny a great big 23 Kv thing ?
Will the proposed Onan --5kv or so --long shot --power the evening AC ?.
I suspect not .

Often see big boats with two genys Mismatched in size ,on big one small .
 

Portofino

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I agree with you.
All this doesn't "stack up"
Our boat is virtually the same size with similar requirements and similar equipment drain.

All our batteries are in battery boxes in the engine room.
Total of 10 batteries.
4 batteries connected as 2 banks of 2 - independently start both engines.
The other 6 are house batteries and are connected as 3 banks of 2 giving (in theory) 187.5ah (50% of 3 banks at 125ah)
As I have said before, it is very easy to run the service batteries down and damage them - I've done it several times.

.
5 bat banks ---hmmm ---there in lies I think your prob
All same charger (s) diff wire Lenghs for same batts ? Hmm
So how many outlets does your charger or chargers have .
How old is /are the chargers (s) --- I mean how smart are they ? Would imagine keeping 5 banks happy is gonna take an intelligent amount of "singing and dancing "
charger (s) need to be able to look after each bank indipendantly .
I think ,iam no expert but ---
Sulphating "-knackering " them occurs at both ends -undercharging them and possibly leaving them semi depleted ,but seemingly functional ? too long and overcharging them .
Interested to know how those 5 banks are managed .
Which bank (s) are thinking topping up with solar ?
 

Hurricane

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5 bat banks ---hmmm ---there in lies I think your prob
All same charger (s) diff wire Lenghs for same batts ? Hmm
So how many outlets does your charger or chargers have .
How old is /are the chargers (s) --- I mean how smart are they ? Would imagine keeping 5 banks happy is gonna take an intelligent amount of "singing and dancing "
charger (s) need to be able to look after each bank indipendantly .
I think ,iam no expert but ---
Sulphating "-knackering " them occurs at both ends -undercharging them and possibly leaving them semi depleted ,but seemingly functional ? too long and overcharging them .
Interested to know how those 5 banks are managed .
Which bank (s) are thinking topping up with solar ?

No, you have read it wrong - there are only 2 sets of batteries
The house set and the engine set

The engine set is 4 off 12v batteries (2 banks of 2 to give 24v)

The house set is 6 off batteries (3 banks of 2 to give 24v)

Each set is fed from each end - positive on one end negative on the other (pretty standard stuff)

Each set has its own battery charger - the engine set is a small Mastervolt trickle charger - the house set is a Mastervolt 24/100.

As I say, I know what my problem is - I'm not putting back what I take out - really simple maths.
 

MapisM

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The white box in the first pic is the custom built box on the top of which are four of the domestic bank
Custom built (and most importantly, designed) by whom, Fairline?
Sorry, but I can't think of any polite way to say that it strikes me as a rubbish design/placement... :ambivalence:
Where exactly are placed the (standard, I suppose?) four domestic batteries?
I can't figure it out from your second pic...
 

Portofino

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No, you have read it wrong - there are only 2 sets of batteries
The house set and the engine set

The engine set is 4 off 12v batteries (2 banks of 2 to give 24v)

The house set is 6 off batteries (3 banks of 2 to give 24v)

Each set is fed from each end - positive on one end negative on the other (pretty standard stuff)

Each set has its own battery charger - the engine set is a small Mastervolt trickle charger - the house set is a Mastervolt 24/100.

As I say, I know what my problem is - I'm not putting back what I take out - really simple maths.

Yes I realise two sets
The issue is the no of banks it's more than two per set which rely on "interconnects "
You have a charger / set. But each set consist of more than one bank .let's disregard the engine bank as you report no issues .
The whole set up of the house set three banks of two is dependant on the interconnects and the relative impedance differences -likely between the the three sets .
How does the single charger accurately apply to right phase of the 3 of its "smart " phases at the right time for each of the three pairs ?
Due to the interconnects each one of the three sets of the house might at some point be getting the wrong phase ,or not enough time @ the right phase ?
Bulk , absorption or float at wrong time could arguably shorten bat life ---therein lies one prob , as well as
The usage in / out calc s
It all depends how the 2x3pairs of house are interconnected

That what I was mearning by 5 sets and two chargers .
Ideally you need a charger per set -so that each one can be personally looked after .
This can be achieved by cutting down the no of batts ie 2xmuch bigger where space applies
2x for 24 V
Eg for 600 ah 2x300 is such exists for 24 v with one charger
Instead of 6 x 100ah with 3sets of 200 - relying on interconnects and potential impedance differences leading the three groups to be in different states .Poor interconnecting can lead to imbalance .
This potential interconnect imbalance is not there with a simple 2x12v set up .So the "smart "charger can read it correctly .
If you stay with the 3 banks of house
I think it may be possible via diodes to charge the 3x200 banks seperately ,but that will take 3 charge outlets working independently .
Ideally each set - house and start for 24 V should have two 12v bats each with a "smart "charger .
Realise bats need to be man handle able and bigger boats need more capacity --so they rely on interconnects .

Med milo in the other thread is exposed to 8 bats of house so 3 interconnects for 24 v -- one charger for these 4 sets
And from I can tell the arrangement is they are in two groups of 4 -so straight away the interconnect between the two 4 sets must be a different L to the ones between the pairs in the 4,s -if you get what I mean .
The proposal seems to be - get rid of one set of 4 and it's Loooong interconnect .
As it stands it seems to me a doomed set up re bat life .
 
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MedMilo

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Custom built (and most importantly, designed) by whom, Fairline?
Sorry, but I can't think of any polite way to say that it strikes me as a rubbish design/placement... :ambivalence:
Where exactly are placed the (standard, I suppose?) four domestic batteries?
I can't figure it out from your second pic...
I'm not sure where Fairline normally fit the four domestic batteries - from memory I think possibly in the lazarette. On my boat they reconfigured the battery locations as follows - four domestics in the custom box, four domestics in the port stern quarter and batteries for starting the engines under the tread plates in the er, between the engines (whether or not just for one engine tbc!).
 

jrudge

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I am away so on phone and just a brief comment. This design does not look great and I am not sure fairline have covered themselves in glory ( the same people who built it are still building the ones coming off the line now ).

Splitting batteries all over the place in a hot engine room ( how are they vented if some are in the bilge). What is in your lazarette??

Have you asked fairline for help given they built it ( different company i accept but same people !)
 
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