8 x 200ah batteries die after 18 months

[WhiskeyTownRacer]

Hurricane, I've done some reading on the subject of Lithium batteries recently and based on your post they seem, at least initially, to offer a potential solution.

I'd bookmarked the following links that you may find useful or interesting, a little 'light' reading for you!

https://marazuladventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/diy-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries8.pdf

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html All 365 pages of it

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/board-power-made-easy-28564.html

http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/

As for "I think I could fit about 600watts of solar panels to our eyebrow." "Using the correct type of controller, I think that I could get a peak charging current of 25a (at 24v)" that output would appear a little optimistic based on some other articles I've come across, when taking into account shading/efficiency losses. An example here of some actual usage/performance figures http://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-1-cochise-solar-update/

I feel obliged to add that I have no expertise in this field, I'm just an interested observer.

 

[Hurricane]

Good point John, I've known Mike just leave the door open, no wonder the battery goes flat!
Note to forum - this is an 'in' jest - sorry

Ha - bloody ha

BTW - we flew over Fridge Door Corner this morning on the way home.

For those who don't understand the joke - we hit some rough weather off Barcelona this summer and JW literally "took off"
Only damage was the fridge door fell off.

Oh yes - and the port engine shut down!!!
I have those cork balls on the ignition keys and the force of the incident caused the port ignition key to whizz round and switch itself off!!

It must have been quite a big splash because some of the hatches (under the carpets) on the lower deck moved.

 

[Hurricane]

Hurricane, I've done some reading on the subject of Lithium batteries recently and based on your post they seem, at least initially, to offer a potential solution.

I'd bookmarked the following links that you may find useful or interesting, a little 'light' reading for you!

https://marazuladventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/diy-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries8.pdf

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html All 365 pages of it

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/board-power-made-easy-28564.html

http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/

As for "I think I could fit about 600watts of solar panels to our eyebrow." "Using the correct type of controller, I think that I could get a peak charging current of 25a (at 24v)" that output would appear a little optimistic based on some other articles I've come across, when taking into account shading/efficiency losses. An example here of some actual usage/performance figures http://www.setsail.com/fpb-78-1-cochise-solar-update/

I feel obliged to add that I have no expertise in this field, I'm just an interested observer.

Thanks for that, I'll have a good read of your links.

As for the optimistic view of the solar - I fully appreciate your comments.
I've been trying to judge the overall effect from yachtie friends who use solar so your link there will also be interesting
Thanks for posting

EDIT
I read your first link a couple of months ago but I haven't seen the others - Cruiser Forums are usually full of good stuff.
Thanks

 

[John100156]

I would think that 600w would be easily achievable, shading should not be a significant issue, cloud cover might slightly diminish output but there should be no other shading, orientation too in the position Mike suggests would not be a significant issue, so a good quality panel should achieve maximum design output for most of the day in the Med. A typical roof mounted PV panel should be capable of 250w and he has good area over which they can be employed.

So 600w/24v gives an optimum 25A an hour - most useful. Even at 50% efficiency over 10 hours would give a potential 125A available. I reckon he will come up with a couple of CT's and a Raspberry Pi program to monitor energy use and to switch the array on/off as needed it will probably even talk to you ' the amount of energy consumed over the last hour is 300w the PV array has been energised and will terminate in 30 minutes......'

 

[jfm]

I typed my post #15 without having read Hurricane's #19 as they crossed. hurricane I think we agree that Milo isn't charging his batteries enough. But you are using lead acids, right? Their charge acceptance is pathetic, so you're always going to have to run your genset for hours and hours to get them up to a very high charge %. You need AGM or gel in this application, because their charge acceptance is much higher and faster.

Thus the bottom line here is that AGM/Gel PLUS a big battery charger spec (100amps per 200Ah, roughly) let you achieve a high charge % in a low number of hours, which in turns means you have low genset run time while still being kind to the batteries, which is the whole point of this exercise so far as Milo is concerned.

Therefore I stick to my view, disagreeing with your #2 Hurricane, that Milo needs more battery charger current than his existing 100amps.

 

[Portofino]

As you add more batteries without adding a proportionate amount of charge capacity (that being 100amps of charger per 200Ah of battery, very roughly) you just end up destroying them by not recharging them enough, unless you run the genset lots, which is the polar opposite of what you're trying to do. A battery has charge acceptance limits that are enough of a PITA on their own without you adding to the problem by not even giving them enough charge rate to hit that limit.

And for sure never do the false economy of using ordinary lead acid batteries - their charge acceptance is much much smaller than gel or agm. Because of the understandable desire to get the genset turned off asap you will never get a decent percentage of charge into them. You must get AGM or gel.
.[/QUOTE] JFM

Exactly - That's why we "top up" our domestic 180 ah x2 in less than 1-2 hrs -at pm with 1/2 h at Lunch and 1/2 h at Breakfast
Infact I think it's a 100 ah not 80 ah ,not sure ! As we called the sparkie out for an intermittent fridge issue to find it was a decaying charger .
He fitted a spare 80ah from his van there an then. Then returned a few days later with a new 100ah Dophin ( made in France ) ?
€1000 fix .
As said we don,t have lead acid .
So agree you need a v big charger + bats ( not lead acid ) that will accept the said charge the fastest .

I think all boat fridges have low v cut out threshold ? -so Hurricane can,t blame them -
So I would ck out the charger -it's not up the task

How ever after a full night afloat I reckon we are ball park 1/4 down ish on the doms ,as said we Geny up 1/2 h or so breakfast , lunch and 2 hrs at evening -we are fine .

For Med Millo - I think you just have to accept a certain amount of "Geny up " -just fit /weave it into your day at anchor .
I don,t know how noisey a big 23 Kv set is .
Can you add extra sound proofing ? Perhaps remount it ,if you feel vibtrations? , fit a super silent exhaust -water seperator mindfull of water exit position .
Perhaps as JFM suggests up the charger out put and change batts to rapid charge type ( not lead acid ) .
Then factor 2 hrs Geny run in the evening for family devices on 220 V chargers -

Suppose returning to smaller dedicated Geny of 3-5 Kv -idea ---
Seems a bit silly to run this ( with extra sound proofing and correct vib less damping + silent exhaust out kit ) most of the time at anchor just to power up a weak ish charger (s) -- just to keep the bats up to powering the inverter to create some 220v .
If you are creating 220 v via a Geny -then use that direct like we do to cook etc and Charge /top up .

Any how many ways to skin a cat
Back to how you actually use the boat -but you don,t want be worrying about power at anchor in a new ish boat - something not right !

I think the solar route is cul d sac in a MoBo --- you are lugging a Geny about ---- use it --or rephrased optimise it !

 

[Hurricane]

I typed my post #15 without having read Hurricane's #19 as they crossed. hurricane I think we agree that Milo isn't charging his batteries enough. But you are using lead acids, right? Their charge acceptance is pathetic, so you're always going to have to run your genset for hours and hours to get them up to a very high charge %. You need AGM or gel in this application, because their charge acceptance is much higher and faster.

Thus the bottom line here is that AGM/Gel PLUS a big battery charger spec (100amps per 200Ah, roughly) let you achieve a high charge % in a low number of hours, which in turns means you have low genset run time while still being kind to the batteries, which is the whole point of this exercise so far as Milo is concerned.

Therefore I stick to my view, disagreeing with your #2 Hurricane, that Milo needs more battery charger current than his existing 100amps.

I didn't mean to comment on Milo's charging system.

However, I have looked at AGMs
There is a problem here.
Everything I've read indicates that AGMs should not be allowed to get hot - hot being in excess of 40 deg C
Essentially, they are sealed batteries and it seems that it isn't good to let the pressure build up.
Thats what I've read.
Anyway, my battery banks are in the engine room where it easily gets to 40 deg C.
There is also some evidence that at the higher temps, AGMs don't charge as quickly as you are saying which brings me back to standard wet lead acids.
Only what I've read though.
What do you think?

 

[John100156]

I think the solar route is cul d sac in a MoBo --- you are lugging a Geny about ---- use it --or rephrased optimise it !

Whilst I agree of course our Gennies are essential, they often allow us to use our AC on the hook which is power hungry, we can still utilise them, but why not take advantage of free solar energy too, to top up our battery banks in the Med sunshine! They are getting cheaper and more efficient by the day, are very light and easy to control and use no diesel fuel..! I will refrain from mentioning carbon savings, as a boat owner myself, that would be just a tad hypocritical....

 

[jfm]

@hurricane, ah ok, I didn't realise your batts were in the e/room. That isn't good - mine are in an air conditioned space (a corner of the crew cabin).

OK so yours are not going to take a fast charge, but if they weren't in the e/room they would if they were gel or agm. Remember you don't have to worry about this because your batt charger should have a temp sensor connected to the centre (hottest) battery and it should regulate the charge if the batts get too hot. Mine rarely need to regulate: as I say I regularly squirt 175 amps into my (small) bank of 400Ah gel batteries and they accept that without overheating, but that's in a cooler part of the boat than yours. Imho it's rather naughty of princess to put the boats in e/room on a big long legged boat like yours but as we all know there are loads of compromises on boats. Bottom line is that you are never going to get a fast charge acceptance unless you're at anchor a few days when the e/room gets cooler

Off top of head I do not know which is faster charge acceptance out of AGM and gel. We need Annageek. Mine are gel - they are the originals and still going strong, and I believe that's because I don't often commit the sin of recharging them to only 75% or so.

I still think solution to medmilo's problem is that he has too little battery charge. He needs 3 x 100amp mastervolts all ganged up in parallel. That's a non trivial job but the BCU cala d'or team can do it of course under supervision of Nick and/or Pete

 

[petem]

I met Pete the other day. Very nice and knowledgeable chap.

 

[runningman]

An interesting discussion.

This is my set up:

A sailing boat with a 480AH deep cycle gel battery bank (12volt), Mastervolt 80amp charger, 6.5KV diesel generator and 400watts of solar panels wired through an MPPT solar charge controller. Fridge, freezer, all LED lighting, always charging phones, tablets, laptops, etc. The solar panels were only recently purchased and are not yet permanently set up, but to make use of them they were laid on deck during September and early October in the UK. A few observations and points:

As stated above, gel/AGM batteries accept a higher rate of charge compared to wet lead acid batteries, so it's quicker to put back in what you take out, providing your charging system is up to the task and is configured correctly.

The Mastervolt charger on my boat has a separate connection for sensing battery voltage. So, heavy wire gauge main charging cables + separate thin wires to sense voltage at the battery bank to regulate the charging mode - Bulk, Absorption and Float. The charger is manually configured with micro switches for different battery types and the gel setting charges at a higher voltage compared to standard wet lead acid batteries. There is also a temperature sensor at the battery bank wired back to the Mastervolt charger. It might be worth the op checking that his Mastervolt charger has all voltage and temperature sensing cables installed and is configured correctly.

The battery voltage sensing wires were not installed when I bought my boat, but reading the Mastervolt manual the facility was there on the charger so I wired it up. Prior to doing this the most I ever saw the charger put into the battery bank was 60 or so amps. After installing the voltage sensing wires the difference was night and day and I now regularly see 75 or so amps for a few minutes when charging first begins and it has made a big difference to how long I have to run the generator. Even so, using a generator to power a charger to charge the batteries gets less and less efficient as the battery bank becomes more charged.

This is where the solar panels come in. On sunny days in the UK in early September I was sometimes able to not run the generator at all. On other less sunny days I was able to run the generator for just an hour or so first thing in the morning to whack the bulk of the charge into the batteries, then the solar panels picked up from where the generator/charger left off and gradually brought the battery bank up to fully charged (Float mode on the MPPT controller) during the day. This was with the fridge, freezer, laptops, etc running. Typical daytime load is approximately 10 amps and maximum approximately 15 amps. Less through the night. The 400watts of solar panels were regularly producing well over 20 amps, even lying on deck on a yacht with shading from various things at different times of day. Mounting them permanently higher up without so much shading should produce better results. Being further south, in the Med, etc would produce even better results. Winter anywhere is a different matter of course.

The solar panels are monocrystaline (better than polycrystaline) and the charge controller is a Victron 100/50 MPPT. I also installed a Victron Bluetooth smart dongle to monitor the panels on a Victron smartphone app.

No connection to any of the above companies other than as an end user of the products.

Sorry for this being a bit long winded but hopefully it might be of use.

Edited to add, also have an inverter but only use it for small loads and power up the generator if needing 230volt mains for large loads or for any length of time.

 

[jfm]

I met Pete the other day. Very nice and knowledgeable chap.

Yup. Highly top bloke. I've done many sea miles with him over the years. He is like family

 

[petem]

Yup. Highly top bloke. I've done many sea miles with him over the years. He is like family

I was hoping to buy a boat from them but wasn't to be this time. Hey ho.

 

[Hurricane]

An interesting discussion.

This is my set up:

A sailing boat with a 480AH deep cycle gel battery bank (12volt), Mastervolt 80amp charger, 6.5KV diesel generator and 400watts of solar panels wired through an MPPT solar charge controller. Fridge, freezer, all LED lighting, always charging phones, tablets, laptops, etc. The solar panels were only recently purchased and are not yet permanently set up, but to make use of them they were laid on deck during September and early October in the UK. A few observations and points:

As stated above, gel/AGM batteries accept a higher rate of charge compared to wet lead acid batteries, so it's quicker to put back in what you take out, providing your charging system is up to the task and is configured correctly.

The Mastervolt charger on my boat has a separate connection for sensing battery voltage. So, heavy wire gauge main charging cables + separate thin wires to sense voltage at the battery bank to regulate the charging mode - Bulk, Absorption and Float. The charger is manually configured with micro switches for different battery types and the gel setting charges at a higher voltage compared to standard wet lead acid batteries. There is also a temperature sensor at the battery bank wired back to the Mastervolt charger. It might be worth the op checking that his Mastervolt charger has all voltage and temperature sensing cables installed and is configured correctly.

The battery voltage sensing wires were not installed when I bought my boat, but reading the Mastervolt manual the facility was there on the charger so I wired it up. Prior to doing this the most I ever saw the charger put into the battery bank was 60 or so amps. After installing the voltage sensing wires the difference was night and day and I now regularly see 75 or so amps for a few minutes when charging first begins and it has made a big difference to how long I have to run the generator. Even so, using a generator to power a charger to charge the batteries gets less and less efficient as the battery bank becomes more charged.

This is where the solar panels come in. On sunny days in the UK in early September I was sometimes able to not run the generator at all. On other less sunny days I was able to run the generator for just an hour or so first thing in the morning to whack the bulk of the charge into the batteries, then the solar panels picked up from where the generator/charger left off and gradually brought the battery bank up to fully charged (Float mode on the MPPT controller) during the day. This was with the fridge, freezer, laptops, etc running. Typical daytime load is approximately 10 amps and maximum approximately 15 amps. Less through the night. The 400watts of solar panels were regularly producing well over 20 amps, even lying on deck on a yacht with shading from various things at different times of day. Mounting them permanently higher up without so much shading should produce better results. Being further south, in the Med, etc would produce even better results. Winter anywhere is a different matter of course.

The solar panels are monocrystaline (better than polycrystaline) and the charge controller is a Victron 100/50 MPPT. I also installed a Victron Bluetooth smart dongle to monitor the panels on a Victron smartphone app.

No connection to any of the above companies other than as an end user of the products.

Sorry for this being a bit long winded but hopefully it might be of use.

Edited to add, also have an inverter but only use it for small loads and power up the generator if needing 230volt mains for large loads or for any length of time.

Really helpful - thanks for posting
Yep - I had singled out the Victron MPPT for further investigation.

 

[Hurricane]

That's a non trivial job but the BCU cala d'or team can do it of course under supervision of Nick and/or Pete

Actually, I have a Mastervolt manual specifically written for connecting multiple chargers.
The wiring in actually quite simple and well documented.
The actual mechanical fixing might be more challenging.

 

[MapisM]

your batt charger should have a temp sensor

Since I swapped the original charger for a much more sophisticated Victron inverter/charger, I've also got that.
And indeed, I've seen a few times on the control panel the temp indicator flashing, when the e/r (where also my batteries are located) is hot.
All well and good, but I always wondered if it wouldn't be equally important to monitor the batteries temp and adjust the charging current accordingly also while under way - i.e. when the alternator (rather than the charger) is charging the battery bank.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have such setup?
The only alternators I'm aware of whose current regulator includes a temp sensor (btw, not only for the batteries, but also for the alternator itself) are made by Balmar.
But I've never seen them on any streamline production boat - I suppose because boatbuilders tend to buy the engines with whatever accessories the engine builders offer as standard...

 

[jfm]

Out of curiosity, does anyone have such setup?
The only alternators I'm aware of whose current regulator includes a temp sensor (btw, not only for the batteries, but also for the alternator itself) are made by Balmar.
But I've never seen them on any streamline production boat - I suppose because boatbuilders tend to buy the engines with whatever accessories the engine builders offer as standard...

I have that. In the standard spec of squad 78 the cat engines have the Mickey Mouse 50 amp alternators deleted and fairline install big fat mastervolt alternators of 150amps @24v (@low rpm) each. 7kilowatts for the pair- more than many gensets. Nicely extravagant. The alternators take their exciter signal from little mastervolt computers (alpha pro) that sense battery temp and also provide an output in the nice 3stage build up (bulk, absorb, float) method. Much better than a normal alternator set up. Obviously the 300 amps is rarely taken in full but when the domestic batts are say down to 60% it's nice to know that when you start the engines that the batteries are getting a serious amount of charge right up to their maximum acceptance. It's a nice system, especially as part of the standard spec.

 

[admillington]

Yup. Highly top bloke. I've done many sea miles with him over the years. He is like family

+1

 

[Portofino]

We have temp sensors fitted to I think AGM batts .
They are in the E room , which obviousley can get hot after shut down ,heak soak etc the Alternators are I think 55 A h ,but there's a voltage regulator ,
Interestingly on this Q+A ,it says a 5-1 ratio for ah charger /bat cap
Also the relative high temp seems to have a marginal charge rate effect .
I think it's a case of getting it all correctly set up ,there is a micro switch that needs adjusting at install --see fitting instructions for 100 ah 24 V
High temp tends to shorten EGM bat life in theory -but right now as I type they are in a cool ER on float -hopefully .
They ( domestic ) only are asked to "stuff charge " when hot -ie after a day @anchor a tiny proportion of there life .
It all works fine and 2x185 ah doms replaced in say 4y -cos they are in the ER ,as opposed to an extra couple of y if in cooler place ,
Assuming the dedicated E bats never really get low for any significant day time /evening "top up" ..I can see that via guages.
Our "Geny up " now and agian is just for the two domestic .
Charger has 3 outlets indipendant Doms ,engine ,(Geny a tiny 45 ah actually a trad lead acid from auto shop ) .
Here's I think usefull link Q+A
http://www.dolphin-charger.com/en/faq

Under the crew cabin bunk is a rack of spare props -- compromise - I,am happy with

 

[petem]

Since I swapped the original charger for a much more sophisticated Victron inverter/charger, I've also got that.
And indeed, I've seen a few times on the control panel the temp indicator flashing, when the e/r (where also my batteries are located) is hot.
All well and good, but I always wondered if it wouldn't be equally important to monitor the batteries temp and adjust the charging current accordingly also while under way - i.e. when the alternator (rather than the charger) is charging the battery bank.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have such setup?
The only alternators I'm aware of whose current regulator includes a temp sensor (btw, not only for the batteries, but also for the alternator itself) are made by Balmar.
But I've never seen them on any streamline production boat - I suppose because boatbuilders tend to buy the engines with whatever accessories the engine builders offer as standard...

P, before Jfm beats me to it, the word you were thinking of was 'mainstream' not 'streamline' I suspect.

Pete