Yachtsmen Carrying Knives (UK)

[Trident]

And why the hell does anyone want to hide a knife in a belt buckle?

Hide? - Because when in my youth I was in the army I was obliged to always be armed in parts of NI and in certain cases a sidearm was impossible and a hidden blade seemed a good idea.

Store/Sheath/Keep? In yachting life it means whenever I have trousers on, which is most of the time when sailing, I have within reach of my hands a cutting edge to free myself from a line etc.

I think the problem people have is the idea that knives are weapons is firmly in their heads. I have had cause to defend myself in civilian life on a number of occasions including things like someone trying to mug me with a knife themselves, and on each occasion , despite having probably two knives on my person I have never considered using one. I would only consider doing so if confronted with a firearm which is thankfully very rare in the UK at least.

To me a knife is a tool and can be a lifesaving tool in many situations and there is no reason as a law abiding citizen not to have one. I can genuinely say it is a tool I have probably used every day of my adult life even if sometimes as a nail trimmer or a screwdriver etc which is slightly unforgivable. I also have a big scar on my hand from stupidly using it to pry open a tin of antifoul instead of finding a screwdriver so I'm not saying my decision making is always great in this respect

 

[pretzel_logic]

1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.

I have never lent or hired and have no intention of doing so - thus they are not in my possession for that purpose thus not illegal under S141.

Hi. it's not just for hire. The legislation states:

s.46(2)(1A)(a) of Offensive Weapons Act 2019 sets out the following;

“Any person who possesses a weapon, to which this section applies, in private is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment to a term not exceeding 51 weeks, to a fine or to both.”

Those items are (from what you said earlier) and belt buckle knife and a butterfly knife (amongst many others).

It came in around 2021 from memory. So just having them around the house means that you commit an offence.

(I make no judgement, just assisting with the law).

 

[mjcoon]

I am aware of this but the data from US accidents and EMT reports and ER rooms bears out what I have said. There is certainly no good method of safety - the seat belt has one set of risks that is highly unlikely to be survivable in a high speed crash and no seat belt has a huge number of risks of injury but is more likely statistically to be survivable - thus I can make a choice based on the likelihoods and decide which is "safer" though neither is safe.

There is also the psychological aspect which has been shown that drivers in seta belts and with air bags feel safer and thus drive less safely and defensively.

Suggest reading wikipedia.org/John_Stapp

 

[Trident]

Hi. it's not just for hire. The legislation states:

s.46(2)(1A)(a) of Offensive Weapons Act 2019 sets out the following;

“Any person who possesses a weapon, to which this section applies, in private is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment to a term not exceeding 51 weeks, to a fine or to both.”

Those items are (from what you said earlier) and belt buckle knife and a butterfly knife (amongst many others).

It came in around 2021 from memory. So just having them around the house means that you commit an offence.

(I make no judgement, just assisting with the law).

Ah I have not kept up with modern amendments and fortunately no longer live in the UK - thank you for the up to date information. I feel uneasy with a government who do nothing to actually tackle the problem of knife crime proscribing what a man may have in his private residence but I suppose the same could be said if I wanted drugs and guns in my own home so ...

 

[mjcoon]

... - detached from the spine is of course inaccurate but its a good way to think of what is happening.

It's also a good way of rubbishing the idea that you know anything about Physiology!

 

[dunedin]

I am aware of this but the data from US accidents and EMT reports and ER rooms bears out what I have said. There is certainly no good method of safety - the seat belt has one set of risks that is highly unlikely to be survivable in a high speed crash and no seat belt has a huge number of risks of injury but is more likely statistically to be survivable - thus I can make a choice based on the likelihoods and decide which is "safer" though neither is safe.

There is also the psychological aspect which has been shown that drivers in seta belts and with air bags feel safer and thus drive less safely and defensively.

Oh I see, so you are of the “safer if mount a spike on the steering wheel hub” mindset?

Even if you are looking at genuine and peer reviewed data from the USA, which sounds extremely unlikely, I suspect this would not be applicable to European spec cars - as in USA people (told lies?) were initially reluctant to wear seatbelts, and hence fitted much bigger and more powerful airbags than Euro spec. Avocet will know if this has now changed.

But also seat belts and Euro airbags are very carefully designed specifically to manage the deceleration to minimise internal injuries. An massively more progressive deceleration than flying free and then stopping instantly on an A pillar, steering wheel or going through the windscreen.

All proper evidence shows it is massively safer in a high speed accident with seatbelt and airbags. Indeed, it is almost certain Princess Diana would have lived, and probably not been badly injured, if wearing seatbelt in the back of the S Class.
Very sad - for Diana and family …….. and for any conspiracy believers that think seatbelts don’t massively improve survivability in car accidents.

 

[Trident]

Suggest reading wikipedia.org/John_Stapp

Interesting - though that led me to the Wiki human tolerances page which says 50g will pretty much kill you and the g forces of car at 45mph in to brick wall they say are 62g and 100g in 70mph crash which would tend to bear out what I was saying - at high speed a seat belt causing an instant deceleration will probably kill you; without you may well be flung through a windscreen and decelerate more slowly and survive. Whether you will want to live thereafter is of course a separate question.

Best simply not to crash

 

[Beelzebub]

When I was at school, carrying a pen-knife was encouraged. (Pencil sharpeners were deemed to be the spawn of the devil).

At university I was taught "all proper engineers carry a knife".

 

[Trident]

Oh I see, so you are of the “safer if mount a spike on the steering wheel hub” mindset?

Even if you are looking at genuine and peer reviewed data from the USA, which sounds extremely unlikely, I suspect this would not be applicable to European spec cars - as in USA people (told lies?) were initially reluctant to wear seatbelts, and hence fitted much bigger and more powerful airbags than Euro spec. Avocet will know if this has now changed.

But also seat belts and Euro airbags are very carefully designed specifically to manage the deceleration to minimise internal injuries. An massively more progressive deceleration than flying free and then stopping instantly on an A pillar, steering wheel or going through the windscreen.

All proper evidence shows it is massively safer in a high speed accident with seatbelt and airbags. Indeed, it is almost certain Princess Diana would have lived, and probably not been badly injured, if wearing seatbelt in the back of the S Class.
Very sad - for Diana and family …….. and for any conspiracy believers that think seatbelts don’t massively improve survivability in car accidents.

I was certainly reading peer reviewed papers in the US and not junk from the internet (as it didn't even exist in public in those days in the UK ) but I accept Euro designs may well be different. I shall make sure to do more up to date and Euro relevant research if i ever buy another car - as it is now sailing and walking are my only forms of transport around the world and of course when taking taxis etc in the countries I visit I wear seat belts if asked by the driver .

You seem very passionate about this subject - is it something that is relevant to you (ie are you a paramedic or an accident investigator etc) - I'm certainly not a safer if you mount a spike type but I took particular interest in the psychological research on motorcycles about helmets and leathers which of course showed that both were incredibly important for safety but also that when removed subjects rode more slowly and carefully and were less likely to have accidents (the conclusion being of course to wear the safety gear and try to remind yourself that they do not make you invulnerable )

It's certainly a subject I shall read more on as technology marches on and in this crowd certainly won't mention that my life jacket hasn't been out of the locker in the last 11 years and 30,000 miles...

 

[bikedaft]

I am aware of this but the data from US accidents and EMT reports and ER rooms bears out what I have said. There is certainly no good method of safety - the seat belt has one set of risks that is highly unlikely to be survivable in a high speed crash and no seat belt has a huge number of risks of injury but is more likely statistically to be survivable - thus I can make a choice based on the likelihoods and decide which is "safer" though neither is safe.

There is also the psychological aspect which has been shown that drivers in seta belts and with air bags feel safer and thus drive less safely and defensively.

You are aware that you cannot compare data from US with here? Their airbags are designed to stop vehicle occupants who are not wearing seat belts (as so many do not over there).

European airbags are designed to reduce injuries of occupants who are wearing a seat belt...

Just saying...

 

[Trident]

You are aware that you cannot compare data from US with here? Their airbags are designed to stop vehicle occupants who are not wearing seat belts (as so many do not over there).

European airbags are designed to reduce injuries of occupants who are wearing a seat belt...

Just saying...

My data was not about airbags but seatbelts - I take your point though as has also been made above about the US/Euro differences ad accept I need to learn more about current UK standards

I disconnect airbags here for completely different reasons to safety

 

[Rappey]

Im a multi trade and have had all sorts of boats over the past 40 years. I,ve owned a multi tool for 25yrs but is always at home unused as i have much better tools for every task.
I cant see any reason to carry any knife unless its while conducting a legitimate activity.
A boats galley often has knives that are suitable for any boat task and a tool box contains other bladed items.

 

[Whaup367]

Ah I have not kept up with modern amendments and fortunately no longer live in the UK ... I feel uneasy with a government who do nothing to actually tackle the problem of knife crime...

I take it you didn't bother reading the article linked above, describing how a government backed initiative was successfully reducing knife crime in Glasgow, then?

 

[Rappey]

without you may well be flung through a windscreen and decelerate more slowly and survive.

But then surely a few milliseconds later once the windscreen has been cleared you have the very same brick wall that stopped the car dead to contend with ?

When i was 20 and extremely stupid and drunk i hit a bank at 80 mph causing the car to roll multiple times over 150m distance.
I had a cut to the top of my head but was ok, my friend did not have a mark on him. A mk3 cortina and we both wore seatblets.
I now never drink if im going to be driving .

I had a mk2 daimler, no seatbelts. That harpoon with a wheel on it pointing right at my chest always worried me !

I have seen many videos where people fly out of a vehicle in a collision to be hit by another vehicle. They would have survived with seatbelts.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Hide? - Because when in my youth I was in the army I was obliged to always be armed in parts of NI and in certain cases a sidearm was impossible and a hidden blade seemed a good idea.

Store/Sheath/Keep? In yachting life it means whenever I have trousers on, which is most of the time when sailing, I have within reach of my hands a cutting edge to free myself from a line etc.

I think the problem people have is the idea that knives are weapons is firmly in their heads. I have had cause to defend myself in civilian life on a number of occasions including things like someone trying to mug me with a knife themselves, and on each occasion , despite having probably two knives on my person I have never considered using one. I would only consider doing so if confronted with a firearm which is thankfully very rare in the UK at least.

To me a knife is a tool and can be a lifesaving tool in many situations and there is no reason as a law abiding citizen not to have one. I can genuinely say it is a tool I have probably used every day of my adult life even if sometimes as a nail trimmer or a screwdriver etc which is slightly unforgivable. I also have a big scar on my hand from stupidly using it to pry open a tin of antifoul instead of finding a screwdriver so I'm not saying my decision making is always great in this respect

I carried a knife to rival Mr Dundee himself, in my branch of the forces. No longer, I don’t routinely even carry a swiss army knife unless hiking, sailing etc. There is every reason not to carry your kind of knife as a law abiding citizen. Namely, it’s aga8nst 5he law to do so. And, it will only ever get you into a bigger mess, not out of a small one.

 

[capnsensible]

I carried a knife to rival Mr Dundee himself, in my branch of the forces. No longer, I don’t routinely even carry a swiss army knife unless hiking, sailing etc. There is every reason not to carry your kind of knife as a law abiding citizen. Namely, it’s aga8nst 5he law to do so. And, it will only ever get you into a bigger mess, not out of a small one.

I carried an Allen key that fits high pressure air reducers and a small adjustable spanner.

 

[Trident]

I carried a knife to rival Mr Dundee himself, in my branch of the forces. No longer, I don’t routinely even carry a swiss army knife unless hiking, sailing etc. There is every reason not to carry your kind of knife as a law abiding citizen. Namely, it’s aga8nst 5he law to do so. And, it will only ever get you into a bigger mess, not out of a small one.

I wonder if anyone who has ever met me considers me a law abiding citizen

It's an interesting concept but to be so would require me not to have had alcohol before 18 or sex before 16 or to exceed 70 mph ever etc etc - we all break any law that we see fit and any man who says he has never broken a speed limit or bought alcohol under age etc is likely a liar. By 17 of course I gave up alcohol as I was driving more regularly and I never drink and drive but again, many people at one time or another may have exceeded the limit even if only slightly. Do people drive their car home from buying it and then get the tax online? oO they claim personal items for business expenses on their tax return, do they use the work photocopier to do personal things without asking and so commit theft in the eyes of the law. The list is endless and consequences vary (a telling off from the barman for sneaking in a pub, a ban from driving for being even a tiny amount over the limit , a fine if caught on camera a few mph over the limit.

I understand your viewpoint but not doing something because it's "against the law" is not something anyone honestly subscribes to .. as I say we all just choose which laws we decide to break and for what reasons.

 

[Trident]

I carried an Allen key that fits high pressure air reducers and a small adjustable spanner.

For a long time I always had a small adjustable spanner with me too until I lost it somewhere - so very useful day to day. I must get another

 

[ylop]

1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.

I have never lent or hired and have no intention of doing so - thus they are not in my possession for that purpose thus not illegal under S141.

But you need to read the whole of s141 not just para 1. After you’ve read subsection 1A you might want to rethink your assertions.

 

[Zing]

When I was at school, carrying a pen-knife was encouraged. (Pencil sharpeners were deemed to be the spawn of the devil).

At university I was taught "all proper engineers carry a knife".

Indeed. When I was at school, age 11 onwards EVERYONE carried a knife. It was utterly normal. Now it’s ss though if you were allowed to touch a knife terrible things would happen. Like whilst having your school lunch that all kids would be without self control and plunge the butter knife into the next kid’s heart, because that’s what you do if you have access to knives.

We are governed by morons.