Yachtsmen Carrying Knives (UK)

[Trident]

Having spent part of my career conducting and analysing automotive crash tests I have evidence that contradicts your opinion.

If you spent part of your time reading this thread you would see that others have already pointed out the the data sets I was looking at are US not Euro and even then probably out of date so I have already accepted your point...

I should note that much evidence, peer reviewed in the 90s from wide ranging accident reports in the US made the argument based on fact so my "opinion" came from that peer reviewed empirical evidence.

 

[Juan Twothree]

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I'm not sure he is a troll.
I've got an uneasy feeling that he might be serious.

 

[Trident]

View attachment 173298

If you read the thread you would see I was not trolling but expressing a view based on peer reviewed data. As noted several times now, those with more up to date and detailed information than I had in the 90s say this is no longer the case and I have accepted that and will no longer suggest to others that seat belts cause more injury in high speed crashes. (Until I have had a chance to review the more up to date designs and data sets as whilst I will accept what people say on here it is just a forum and for my own choices I will look at the data in the raw myself) Personally whether I choose to use them in future is a matter only for me

 

[Trident]

I'm not sure he is a troll.
I've got an uneasy feeling that he might be serious.

Read my reply above yours - the data I looked at was pretty unequivocal when it comes to high speed crashes but I have accepted that it is now out of date and related to US designs which I have been told differed to Euro standard ones. So yes I was very serious for very good reason. I will not repeat my view based on this and will research the Euro data when I have time before I decide for myself how I will react.

As a motorcycle racer and car racer, and having been through a number of very serious high speed and pursuit driving courses I am not unfamiliar with the effects of crashes and yet based on the information available I made a choice . You seem to want to come across as an expert in the subject so I assume you have read the research that came out in the US (and caused several law suits and rethinks of seat belt policy in some states at the time ) and had differing data sets to counter the peer reviewed research that showed seat belts were safer at lower speeds but often counter productive at higher speed collisions.

As a normal member of the public, I am not in the habit of checking regularly for updates to statistics on accidents in automobiles - why would I be? Should I simply accept the introduction of a law that came from a government that still bases a driving test and speed limits on a 1973 car data set? Should I accept what car manufacturers say when they have been fined for lying and basis recalls on a cost of law suit from deaths or injuries to cost of recall basis rather than on the moral principle of doing right?

I'm fully vaccinated, have seen evidence of man visiting the moon and don't even know my star sign ... but not every accept norm is actually right.

 

[nevis768]

Read my reply above yours - the data I looked at was pretty unequivocal when it comes to high speed crashes but I have accepted that it is now out of date and related to US designs which I have been told differed to Euro standard ones. So yes I was very serious for very good reason. I will not repeat my view based on this and will research the Euro data when I have time before I decide for myself how I will react.

As a motorcycle racer and car racer, and having been through a number of very serious high speed and pursuit driving courses I am not unfamiliar with the effects of crashes and yet based on the information available I made a choice . You seem to want to come across as an expert in the subject so I assume you have read the research that came out in the US (and caused several law suits and rethinks of seat belt policy in some states at the time ) and had differing data sets to counter the peer reviewed research that showed seat belts were safer at lower speeds but often counter productive at higher speed collisions.

As a normal member of the public, I am not in the habit of checking regularly for updates to statistics on accidents in automobiles - why would I be? Should I simply accept the introduction of a law that came from a government that still bases a driving test and speed limits on a 1973 car data set? Should I accept what car manufacturers say when they have been fined for lying and basis recalls on a cost of law suit from deaths or injuries to cost of recall basis rather than on the moral principle of doing right?

I'm fully vaccinated, have seen evidence of man visiting the moon and don't even know my star sign ... but not every accept norm is actually right.

I think the above is complete crap because the only people who can undertake 'very serious high speed and pursuit driving courses' are the police, and only those engaged in that type of police work. Some other agencies receive police advanced driver training, which is totally different from the Advanced driving the public can undertake, but those agencies do not do pursuit training. The courses are also not known as 'very serious ' either. They are actually good fun, and not serious at all, as you would know if you had ever really done one. Also, you only do one of these, not a number, as you say. You would be the first police person I've ever met who decries seatbelts because people in that line of work see the result of NOT wearing one first hand. It is also strange you don't understand the law relating to knife carrying, so I think you are just another of these unfortunate individuals who post rubbish on the internet, and make ridiculous claims.

 

[Pete7]

I am struggling to remember a time when I needed a knife quickly whilst sailing, that couldn't be met with something sharp from the galley. Different underwater, there were just a couple of occasions in 4000 dives that needed a knife. Fishing line being the normal use. Once a large blade strapped to your leg was vogue, but now replaced with something small but much sharper and kept in a pocket on a lanyard whilst diving.

 

[Trident]

I think the above is complete crap because the only people who can undertake 'very serious high speed and pursuit driving courses' are the police, and only those engaged in that type of police work. Some other agencies receive police advanced driver training, which is totally different from the Advanced driving the public can undertake, but those agencies do not do pursuit training. The courses are also not known as 'very serious ' either. They are actually good fun, and not serious at all, as you would know if you had ever really done one. Also, you only do one of these, not a number, as you say. You would be the first police person I've ever met who decries seatbelts because people in that line of work see the result of NOT wearing one first hand. It is also strange you don't understand the law relating to knife carrying, so I think you are just another of these unfortunate individuals who post rubbish on the internet, and make ridiculous claims.

The army did the highest quality courses in the world in Northern Ireland where I was posted for several years and was required to do two - I think you’re one of these people who thinks he knows about stuff from reading the internet and doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

I have made my feelings on the police very clear on many occasions- mostly due to having worked with them in NI and would certainly never want to be among their ranks

It’s a long time ago so my memory is not perfect but I’m fairly sure my army instructors were quite scathing of the police driving courses which I recall arguing about in a good natured way because my father who was a racing driver had actually been a contributing writer of the police green book

 

[Juan Twothree]

You seem to want to come across as an expert in the subject so I assume you have read the research that came out in the US

I'd never claim to be an expert, but I do have first hand knowledge and experience of what happens to unrestrained people following a sudden deceleration. It's obviously never happened to me, as I'm still here to write this, but I've had to deal with the aftermath.

However I haven't read the data sets that you have, so I'll have to bow to your vastly superior knowledge of the subject.

 

[Trident]

I'd never claim to be an expert, but I do have first hand knowledge and experience of what happens to unrestrained people following a sudden deceleration. It's obviously never happened to me, as I'm still here to write this, but I've had to deal with the aftermath.

However I haven't read the data sets that you have, so I'll have to bow to your vastly superior knowledge of the subject.

Dude can’t you just try to be polite- I’ve already said it seems that I’m wrong and the data I had is out of date - I don’t claim vastly superior knowledge but your attitude was so strong in the idea that I was wrong I assumed you were in the business or at least in possession of better information. If you’d therefore read the data I had I asked why you disregarded it when I did not.

If you’re just going to be sarcastic and not add anything to the discussion I’ll not bother to interact with you any further.

 

[capnsensible]

The army did the highest quality courses in the world in Northern Ireland where I was posted for several years and was required to do two - I think you’re one of these people who thinks he knows about stuff from reading the internet and doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

I have made my feelings on the police very clear on many occasions- mostly due to having worked with them in NI and would certainly never want to be among their ranks

It’s a long time ago so my memory is not perfect but I’m fairly sure my army instructors were quite scathing of the police driving courses which I recall arguing about in a good natured way because my father who was a racing driver had actually been a contributing writer of the police green book

Sail Navy

Drive Army

Walk Sideways.....

 

[billskip]

I assumed

This is the problem......

 

[Trident]

This is the problem......

To quote Ellen Ripley “did IQs just drop sharply while I was away”

 

[colind3782]

During 32 years as a Paramedic I have never seen anyone seriously injured after rolling their car IF they were wearing a seatbelt. I have no statistics to hand, just observation experience.

 

[Trident]

On the other hand I had a good female friend who had burn scars up one arm gained during the time it took to cut off the seatbelt she was stuck under in an over turned Saab 900

I also have met a guy who as a child almost drowned due to a stuck seatbelt after a crash but a farmer intervened and had some form of knife and cut him free

These may be outliers but they do happen so it’s always about playing the odds

 

[billskip]

To quote Ellen Ripley “did IQs just drop sharply while I was away”

Quoting a fictional character is on par with your fictional posts.

 

[Biggles Wader]

During 32 years as a Paramedic I have never seen anyone seriously injured after rolling their car IF they were wearing a seatbelt. I have no statistics to hand, just observation experience.

An anecdote to back that up--------Three builders driving home in their van lose control on the motorway at about 70 MPH and vehicle hits central reservation then skids across all lanes onto the grassy area where it flips several times. Driver and left passenger(seatbelts worn) have a few cuts and bruises and a broken arm. The passenger sitting in the middle (no seat belt) is ejected through the windscreen and dies almost instantly.

 

[nevis768]

The army did the highest quality courses in the world in Northern Ireland where I was posted for several years and was required to do two - I think you’re one of these people who thinks he knows about stuff from reading the internet and doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

I have made my feelings on the police very clear on many occasions- mostly due to having worked with them in NI and would certainly never want to be among their ranks

It’s a long time ago so my memory is not perfect but I’m fairly sure my army instructors were quite scathing of the police driving courses which I recall arguing about in a good natured way because my father who was a racing driver had actually been a contributing writer of the police green book

The army didn't do those 'high speed courses' to which you allude in your post. The reason for that is , legally, the only organisations who can exceed the speed limit are the police, fire, ambulance, and lately, NCA, but not the army. So, you might have done an army driving course but it wasn't a pursuit course or course which involved exceeding the speed limit. Army/forces personnel requiring that kind of training came to the police because only the police can do it. Pursuit training was not included, because the armed forces do not have marked vehicles equipped for that, and are not allowed to do it, so what would be the point? Possibly, changing your user name to Walter mitty be appropriate.

 

[benjenbav]

I believe that seatbelts/harnesses help prevent injuries but I have seen an outlying incident where the reverse was true. Acting as pit crew for a friend I was in the holding area for the next race at Silverstone several years ago (2016 or thereabouts) and watching the vintage Bentley race. 100m in front of where I stood two of these monsters touched wheels at Aintree corner and one flipped up in the air throwing the unrestrained driver free. He was taken to hospital by helicopter and survived. I don’t think he would have done had he been strapped in and crushed by 2 tons of vintage Bentley.

But I appreciate that’s a very specialised set of circumstances and I would much rather take my chances with a seatbelt and a set of airbags.

Also, I would take care not to carry a knife rather than having to prove I had a proper excuse for carrying it. There’s too much horrible knife crime these days without the police having to waste time worrying about elderly sailors and their leatherman knives.

 

[Trident]

The army didn't do those 'high speed courses' to which you allude in your post. The reason for that is , legally, the only organisations who can exceed the speed limit are the police, fire, ambulance, and lately, NCA, but not the army. So, you might have done an army driving course but it wasn't a pursuit course or course which involved exceeding the speed limit. Army/forces personnel requiring that kind of training came to the police because only the police can do it. Pursuit training was not included, because the armed forces do not have marked vehicles equipped for that, and are not allowed to do it, so what would be the point? Possibly, changing your user name to Walter mitty be appropriate.

Oh dear ...
if you say so

 

[The Q]

The army didn't do those 'high speed courses' to which you allude in your post. The reason for that is , legally, the only organisations who can exceed the speed limit are the police, fire, ambulance, and lately, NCA, but not the army. So, you might have done an army driving course but it wasn't a pursuit course or course which involved exceeding the speed limit. Army/forces personnel requiring that kind of training came to the police because only the police can do it. Pursuit training was not included, because the armed forces do not have marked vehicles equipped for that, and are not allowed to do it, so what would be the point? Possibly, changing your user name to Walter mitty be appropriate.

The army train for what is needed in time of war, not in peacetime, certain people eg the SAS, and no doubt others will have been trained in things not needed on UK roads.