Yachtsmen Carrying Knives (UK)

dunedin said:
As posted earlier, carrying the proscribed type of blade puts the onus on the carrier to prove to court that there is a good reason - with work, religious and national costume the only specific examples. Habit or hobby probably not.
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Maybe we are arguing semantics.
Proscribed blades are:
  • Switchblades, automatics or flick-knives
  • gravity knives
  • balisongs or butterfly knives
  • push daggers
  • belt buckle knives
  • sword canes
  • knuckle-duster knives
A locking, or fixed blade knife is not illegal, though carrying one in public can be. IIUC, the examples you cite are technically exemptions, not examples of reasonable excuse.
The legislation refers to "reasonable excuse" and while the onus does indeed lie with the carrier to prove that, if it came to court; you'd presumably need to behave unreasonably when challenged by a copper in order to have to do so...
A knife is only an "offensive weapon" if there's intent to use it as one, same as an umbrella or screwdriver.

There must be better examples than the yachtie above.
 
IIRC, the old offensive weapons legislation, which, btw, was perfectly adequate, says an offensive weapon is anything made, adapted or intended for use as an offensive weapon.

A chef's knife? not made or adapted, but if you're carrying it in a public place, you'd better have a good "reasonable excuse" that it's not intended, especially if you happen to be young or, worse of the wrong ethnicity. It's in a box of kitchen stuff and "I'm a chef going to cater for a private party", OK, "I forgot I had it on me" outside a dodgy club, not so much.
 
Whaup367 said:
We've been offered the opportunity to go back to the retail bit of an airport and post the offending article home in the past. You need to have a bit of time in hand before your flight for this to be practical, though! As above, it's not a problem if you are checking luggage in.
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It's easier in Geneva airport, there's a Victorinox shop selling swiss army knives in the departure lounge.
 
ylop said:
Had an interesting recent moment. My allegedly grown up son has recently acquired a kilt etc and for Christmas suggested we might buy him a Sgian Dubh. It’s part of his national dress so can, at least in theory, be worn quite legally. When I bought my Sgian Dubh back in the dark ages they virtually all were real knives, I had expected this to still be the case. Actually much harder to find one that has a real blade now. My son is the least aggressive person I’ve even met and I have zero concerns about him carrying a knife in his sock, but after some thought about this we decided that the fake knife was actually a better plan. He will never attack anyone, and if he was attacked probably wouldn’t have the presence of mind to pull the Sgian Dubh in a vague attempt at defence - but those who might be aggressive enough to try it on with him might well be stupid enough to end up with it in their hands and who knows after that. I suspect that the sort of venues he goes to are probably more sensitive to knives than those I occasionally frequent!
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A Sgian Brew is much more useful!!!
Though I have that or a proper Sgian Dubh to wear as I feel is required.
One problem with a Sgian Dubh is that although it's legal to carry throughout the UK, any premises may refuse your entry for carrying if they wish.

I carry four tool boxes in the landrover, with a variety of sharps in them
1 tool box for modelling at the Radar Museum, Home | RAF Air Defence Radar Museum currently working at 1/1000 scale which means tiny tools, but a planned project is 1/4 that will require bigger tools in the box.
1 tool box For railway modelling Broadland Model Railway Club 1/1600 scale modelling at the moment.
1 tool box for working on the boat. (Sailing mini keelboat)
And of course the landrover tool box.
As all three premises are fairly close to each other I often go from one to another.
 
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dunedin said:
Wow. These fairy tales about seat belts and airbags being unsafe are completely untrue, and probably from the same US conspiracy sites as claimed Covid was due to 5G or Bill Gates brain implants. It would be a waste of Avocet’s breath to try and put the enormous weight of actual crash data evidence to demonstrate the degree of nonsense.
But if you chose to carry an illegal knife, just be prepared for the consequences if you get a criminal record. Don’t do the crime if you won’t do the time (or more likely the legal, employment and social restrictions a criminal record might entail).
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Have you personally looked at the data - I have. Seat belts help in slow speed accidents and cause sudden death in many high speed accidents - and I feel the risk in slow speed is small compared the risk in high speed. I did a degree in Physiology and have been working in engineering all my life so I am not an idiot who is swayed by YouTube sites and who cannot read data sets or understand the physiological damage . I was also trained in high speed pursuit driving in the army by instructors I trusted and who all had very firm views about airbags

But hey, you choose how you drive and I'll choose how I do - I've done around well over a million miles of motoring so far without injury (in a car, my motorcycling career is not injury free) so I'm happy with my choices.
 
Whaup367 said:
Maybe we are arguing semantics.
Proscribed blades are:
  • Switchblades, automatics or flick-knives
  • gravity knives
  • balisongs or butterfly knives
  • push daggers
  • belt buckle knives
  • sword canes
  • knuckle-duster knives
A locking, or fixed blade knife is not illegal, though carrying one in public can be. IIUC, the examples you cite are technically exemptions, not examples of reasonable excuse.
The legislation refers to "reasonable excuse" and while the onus does indeed lie with the carrier to prove that, if it came to court; you'd presumably need to behave unreasonably when challenged by a copper in order to have to do so...
A knife is only an "offensive weapon" if there's intent to use it as one, same as an umbrella or screwdriver.

There must be better examples than the yachtie above.
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As the owner of two balisong, a push dagger and a push dagger belt buckle knife (apologies that you now have to take your belt off at an airport - that was my fault having worn my belt through a scanner and only on my return home realised that I had flown with a knife - so I contact the appropriate authorities to explain that a belt buckle knife did not ping the metal detectors - next flight a year later they had change the system) I should point out these are not illegal to own, only to take outside the house.

The whole thing is ludicrous when most assaults are with kitchen knives, planes have glass bottles and razor sharp aluminium cans freely available, a wave knife (that opens from a small clip on the back of the blade snagging the pocket and you pull it out) is faster to open one handed than a balisong (which I can use very quickly ) or a flick knife . It's again just sticking plaster politics -ban something that has made the press this week and do nothing about underlying causes of knife crime.

From June IIRC the Post Office will no long carry any bladed items to try and stop kids buying knives by mail order because the age verification laws failed to actually verify age - and of course they assume no hands will have anyone over 18 who might buy a knife for the others.
 
Trident said:
Have you personally looked at the data - I have. Seat belts help in slow speed accidents and cause sudden death in many high speed accidents - and I feel the risk in slow speed is small compared the risk in high speed. I did a degree in Physiology and have been working in engineering all my life so I am not an idiot who is swayed by YouTube sites and who cannot read data sets or understand the physiological damage . I was also trained in high speed pursuit driving in the army by instructors I trusted and who all had very firm views about airbags

But hey, you choose how you drive and I'll choose how I do - I've done around well over a million miles of motoring so far without injury (in a car, my motorcycling career is not injury free) so I'm happy with my choices.
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Where is your reference to this published data?
 
dunedin said:
As posted earlier, carrying the proscribed type of blade puts the onus on the carrier to prove to court that there is a good reason - with work, religious and national costume the only specific examples. Habit or hobby probably not.
Click to expand...
Little bit of confusion here. What the law says in relation to blades is that a non-locking knife with a blade length of less than 3" is fine (folding pocket knives) and wouldn't fall under the legislation (Pointed and bladed articles). Any other knife is subject to the rules no matter what length. Then reasonable excuse or lawful authority is required. There are specific defences - such as mentioned, however that is not exhaustive and hobbies would generally be fine (if reasonable). Carrying a knife on way to the boat, dive site etc is fine. Carrying it to the pub afterwards is probably not.

However if the person has any knife (even a Swiss Army Knife) and intends to use it to harm someone then that would clearly be an offence (under different law).
 
Stemar said:
IIRC, the old offensive weapons legislation, which, btw, was perfectly adequate, says an offensive weapon is anything made, adapted or intended for use as an offensive weapon.

A chef's knife? not made or adapted, but if you're carrying it in a public place, you'd better have a good "reasonable excuse" that it's not intended, especially if you happen to be young or, worse of the wrong ethnicity. It's in a box of kitchen stuff and "I'm a chef going to cater for a private party", OK, "I forgot I had it on me" outside a dodgy club, not so much.
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Thats actually why the "old" legislation wasn't effective - the crown had to prove your "sometimes legitimate" item was in this circumstance offensive; which meant proving intent which is hard for an item in your pocket/bag. Of course using legislation to fix a cultural problem is never a good solution - those most likely to be stabbed have had this legislation their entire life and its not stopping them.
 
pretzel_logic said:
Little bit of confusion here. What the law says in relation to blades is that a non-locking knife with a blade length of less than 3" is fine (folding pocket knives) and wouldn't fall under the legislation (Pointed and bladed articles). Any other knife is subject to the rules no matter what length. Then reasonable excuse or lawful authority is required. There are specific defences - such as mentioned, however that is not exhaustive and hobbies would generally be fine (if reasonable). Carrying a knife on way to the boat, dive site etc is fine. Carrying it to the pub afterwards is probably not.

However if the person has any knife (even a Swiss Army Knife) and intends to use it to harm someone then that would clearly be an offence (under different law).
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Exactly. I always carry a Swiss Army Knife (unless I am going through airport security). Used it yesterday to open paint tins then cut open pack of biscuits. Used it this morning - more paint tins - , scraped the mud of my wellies with it and about to use it to open a bottle of beer. Might even use the corkscrew later if the boss wants wine with her tea.
 
doug748 said:
I do carry a Leatherman quite a lot for the pliers really,
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+1, pliers screwdriver etc, though mine has two locking blades.
I once forgot and went to a Police station while having it on my belt, the officer at the entrance just said "please leave it in this box, you'll pick it up as you leave"; had I had some curly black beard and muttered something sounding Arabic-ish I reckon my life expectancy would have been reduced to a few seconds. Many horrific acts of violence with knives during these past years in France.
 
Trident said:
Have you personally looked at the data - I have. Seat belts help in slow speed accidents and cause sudden death in many high speed accidents - and I feel the risk in slow speed is small compared the risk in high speed. I did a degree in Physiology and have been working in engineering all my life so I am not an idiot who is swayed by YouTube sites and who cannot read data sets or understand the physiological damage . I was also trained in high speed pursuit driving in the army by instructors I trusted and who all had very firm views about airbags

But hey, you choose how you drive and I'll choose how I do - I've done around well over a million miles of motoring so far without injury (in a car, my motorcycling career is not injury free) so I'm happy with my choices.
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What about the massive injuries caused to the chest by impact with the steering wheel, or head injuries when you go through the windscreen?

You might have driven a million miles without a scratch, but go and have a chat with your local fire and rescue crew, or paramedics at the ambulance station.

Obviously, they're not nearly as clever as you are with your physiology degree, but they could tell you a few stories about things they've seen.
 
ylop said:
I should point out you are wrong and have just admitted to 4 offences under s141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988:

The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988

s1(d), 1(e), 1(i)

S141 applies to possession in private.
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  1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 provides that it is an offence to manufacture, sell or hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire of or lending or giving to any other person certain specified weapons.

I have never lent or hired and have no intention of doing so - thus they are not in my possession for that purpose thus not illegal under S141.
 
Trident said:
Most evidence in the last few years coming out of US crashes shows that seat belts are more dangerous due to the detachment of organs from the spine with sudden deceleration which causes instant death rather than say a crush injury without a seat belt.
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One of the upshots of the compulsory wearing of seatbelts was a shortage of donor organs from people dying in road traffic accidents.

Why do you think that was?
Were the organs being damaged by becoming "detached from the spine"?
Or maybe because fewer people were being killed?

Where did you do your physiology degree? I'd be asking for my money back.
 
Juan Twothree said:
What about the massive injuries caused to the chest by impact with the steering wheel, or head injuries when you go through the windscreen?

You might have driven a million miles without a scratch, but go and have a chat with your local fire and rescue crew, or paramedics at the ambulance station.

Obviously, they're not nearly as clever as you are with your physiology degree, but they could tell you a few stories about things they've seen.
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I am aware of this but the data from US accidents and EMT reports and ER rooms bears out what I have said. There is certainly no good method of safety - the seat belt has one set of risks that is highly unlikely to be survivable in a high speed crash and no seat belt has a huge number of risks of injury but is more likely statistically to be survivable - thus I can make a choice based on the likelihoods and decide which is "safer" though neither is safe.

There is also the psychological aspect which has been shown that drivers in seta belts and with air bags feel safer and thus drive less safely and defensively.
 
Juan Twothree said:
One of the upshots of the compulsory wearing of seatbelts was a shortage of donor organs from people dying in road traffic accidents?

Why do you think that was?
Were the organs being damaged by becoming "detached from the spine"?

Where did you do your physiology degree? Id be asking for my money back.
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I was trying to make it understandable without going in to great detail - they are moving away from the back at high speed when the body is restrained but the very mobile organs have inertia - there are various tears, splits, blunt trauma as they hit the rib cage etc - detached from the spine is of course inaccurate but its a good way to think of what is happening.

if you disagree please continue to drive in whatever manner you think is safest . If you think I am wrong feel free to investigate the data for yourself and if your interpretation differs as to the risk analysis please let me know.
 
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