BlueSkyNick
Active member
Re: BTW
No but I can see the words on the screen, ya dimwit !
No but I can see the words on the screen, ya dimwit !
Why are bavarias so cheap?
- Thread starter max
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
I was trying (not very well) to avoid saying my more general thoughts on the subject because previous AWB thread experience shows that it's difficult to have a calm objective discussion. Rather than trying to make one or two wise-cracks, I should probably have shut up in the first place!
But I'm a sucker for taking a bait, so here goes! My general thoughts (which I tried to hint at indirectly with the car analogy) was that sailing is not just about getting best value for money - if we chose our boats purely on that basis then we would never go sailing at all, because sailing is not a logical, value-for-money activity.
I think that most people choose their boats tramping round boat shows and comparing the price tag to how dazzling the forecabins on offer are. I find myself falling into the same trap when wandering round boat shows, there's something hypnotic about them.
But in my book, it is more logical to choose the boat that will give you the best sailing and ownership experience. By that I mean be fun to sail, allow you to go out and enjoy sailing in conditions when other boats are struggling, that the boat looks after you in those conditions and gets you home, that the boat encourages you to reach far-off exotic ports that other boats would reach with less ease, that the boat gives pride of ownership and turns heads in harbours, and gives you a lump in the throat when you look at her.
Now I know that my book is not everyone's book, thank heavens, and that internal volume is important to some. But Boat Show Syndrome IMHO makes a lot of people myself included pay excessive importance to internal volume rather while forgetting about other reasons why we go sailing.
This is especially true of families - many owners of AWB's I have spoken to (in private, not so much on the forum) say something to the effect that they would love something more Contessa-like, but they need to keep the family happy. Well I sail with my family, and I don't believe that space is a major problem, at least for 4 or 5. The trick is not to introduce the family to sailing through charters in Beneteaus in warm climates, but rather first to the fun of dinghy sailing in wetsuits in cold climates. They'll be better and more enthusiastic sailors for it anyway. And after that, an MAB interior seems like boundless luxury, and the family will be more interested in appreciating its sailing qualities, glowing with pride when people compliment them on the boat, enjoying the ability of the boat to keep the family safe without scaring them etc. etc.
Now there are plenty of arguments in favour of AWB's, and for some people they are undoubtedly the thing. For a start, there are people who don't like sailing but perhaps just like to invite friends to 'stay on the boat' for a weekend. Then there are charter-type situations where there are two or three couples on board who want separate cabins. In those circs I'd probably charter an AWB in preference myself. And an awful lot of people have been introduced to sailing through charters, and perhaps they buy what they are accustomed to.
But I think that for most private buyers, judging a boat for cost-versus-volume is a flawed approach from the start. Better to work out what will give the most enjoyable and effective sailing experience, and work backwards from there. I'm not saying that everyone using that approach will end up with a Contessa (tho's quite a lot would! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), but I think the emphasis in yacht design has gone, and is remaining, too far at the other end of the spectrum:-
Interior accommodation + number of gadgets = price. Buy the one with the lowest price.
But I'm a sucker for taking a bait, so here goes! My general thoughts (which I tried to hint at indirectly with the car analogy) was that sailing is not just about getting best value for money - if we chose our boats purely on that basis then we would never go sailing at all, because sailing is not a logical, value-for-money activity.
I think that most people choose their boats tramping round boat shows and comparing the price tag to how dazzling the forecabins on offer are. I find myself falling into the same trap when wandering round boat shows, there's something hypnotic about them.
But in my book, it is more logical to choose the boat that will give you the best sailing and ownership experience. By that I mean be fun to sail, allow you to go out and enjoy sailing in conditions when other boats are struggling, that the boat looks after you in those conditions and gets you home, that the boat encourages you to reach far-off exotic ports that other boats would reach with less ease, that the boat gives pride of ownership and turns heads in harbours, and gives you a lump in the throat when you look at her.
Now I know that my book is not everyone's book, thank heavens, and that internal volume is important to some. But Boat Show Syndrome IMHO makes a lot of people myself included pay excessive importance to internal volume rather while forgetting about other reasons why we go sailing.
This is especially true of families - many owners of AWB's I have spoken to (in private, not so much on the forum) say something to the effect that they would love something more Contessa-like, but they need to keep the family happy. Well I sail with my family, and I don't believe that space is a major problem, at least for 4 or 5. The trick is not to introduce the family to sailing through charters in Beneteaus in warm climates, but rather first to the fun of dinghy sailing in wetsuits in cold climates. They'll be better and more enthusiastic sailors for it anyway. And after that, an MAB interior seems like boundless luxury, and the family will be more interested in appreciating its sailing qualities, glowing with pride when people compliment them on the boat, enjoying the ability of the boat to keep the family safe without scaring them etc. etc.
Now there are plenty of arguments in favour of AWB's, and for some people they are undoubtedly the thing. For a start, there are people who don't like sailing but perhaps just like to invite friends to 'stay on the boat' for a weekend. Then there are charter-type situations where there are two or three couples on board who want separate cabins. In those circs I'd probably charter an AWB in preference myself. And an awful lot of people have been introduced to sailing through charters, and perhaps they buy what they are accustomed to.
But I think that for most private buyers, judging a boat for cost-versus-volume is a flawed approach from the start. Better to work out what will give the most enjoyable and effective sailing experience, and work backwards from there. I'm not saying that everyone using that approach will end up with a Contessa (tho's quite a lot would! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif), but I think the emphasis in yacht design has gone, and is remaining, too far at the other end of the spectrum:-
Interior accommodation + number of gadgets = price. Buy the one with the lowest price.
G
Guest
Guest
Probably my attempt at humour misfired, and my reaction re thought police was probably uncalled for: it's just things always seem to get a bit repressive when AWB discussions arise. About cars, I was trying to say that value for money is not everything in a boat, or we'd never go sailing in the first place!
On the specific merits of Bavarias vs other AWB's I can't comment, except to say that I don't like the blue stripe very much, and I didn't like the photos of the way the keel seemed to be bolted on!
But I'm glad I'm not on your ignore list yet! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
On the specific merits of Bavarias vs other AWB's I can't comment, except to say that I don't like the blue stripe very much, and I didn't like the photos of the way the keel seemed to be bolted on!
But I'm glad I'm not on your ignore list yet! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
G
Guest
Guest
Re: BTW
Can't argue with that. And I also quite like the look of the OOD 34, it looks positively sleek compared to some other boats... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The only thing is that I think a lot of people don't really know what they want their boat to do until after they've bought it. Especially as entry level boats are now getting pretty big.
Can't argue with that. And I also quite like the look of the OOD 34, it looks positively sleek compared to some other boats... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The only thing is that I think a lot of people don't really know what they want their boat to do until after they've bought it. Especially as entry level boats are now getting pretty big.
G
Guest
Guest
Generally I agree with Simon ...
But I also tend to think that a large portion of the boating world gets forgotten in these debates ....
There are many like me who cannot afford a Bav 36, 40 etc. but despite that handicap actually may have something to say based on knowledge, observation or other - even if its second-hand info.
The trick is to enter the debate and get to the decision one-self which ias accepted or not as reasonable info. Each persons view will be different - even those who like the same boat ...
Now a post earlier had a clever comment that struck me as rather astute observation .... near all posts by Bav / Legend etc. AWB owners are "defending" the boat by saying that they didn't buy to go deep-sea, that the boat serves what they want etc. etc. It's as if they are agreeing with a lot of the economy criticism but wriggling free ....
Strange isn't it .... A HR owner wouldn't generally bother to justify his choice of boat ... he would be accepted as knowing what he wants ... but a Bav owner is like the VW Golf entering the car park ......
Sorry - and I really do mean sorry - I am not trying to offend ... just putting down in type the perception that comes across many posts from both Bav owners and non-owners ...
Me - I have a boat that I know will survive most that I can throw at it ... whether right or wrong - my inside says - if I hit that pontoon ... I am most likely to get away with it maybe with a ding or scratch in the gelcoat. For some reason I don't feel I would have the same result if doing same force with a Bav .... but again it is feeling and perception - not based on observation or fact ... I don't honestly know ... I use my gut reaction to having looked over boats for clients / myself etc.
We can all recite horror stories for many different models of boat .... Westerly's have had their Penny-Washer sagas with keel fixings. Weak structure to carry repeated grounding on bilge keels etc. etc.
Starlight's with faults ...... Sadlers etc. They have all had their Monday morning examples ....
One man or family has a slightly different criteria in boat to the next ... me ? I wanted max boat for my few £'s ... and I feel I got it .... she has done me proud ... but I also know that thousands out there wouldn't give her a second look. Fine by me.
Let me just say one thing .... I was spoken too rather badly and looked down upon by a AWB "skipper" when on Cowes refuel dock ... - he had squeezed in behind me - just as I was about to depart making it not so easy to leave ... so I took great delight in giving him an anxious moment ... he thought I was going to hit his lovely boat when leaving ... what he didn't know - I have an engine probably 2x his .... and I stop on the sixpence ... no joke ! I don't know why he had that attitude, nothing had ben done or warranted it .... Before anyone says it - it has not coloured my post here nor given me a complex about AWB's etc ..... but its to illustrate that we are all different and look upon our boats etc. in OUR own way ...
My 10K boat manky as she is .... is my pride and joy ... just the same as anyone elses here that costs 10x, 100x as much .....
I apologise for my long rant ....
But I also tend to think that a large portion of the boating world gets forgotten in these debates ....
There are many like me who cannot afford a Bav 36, 40 etc. but despite that handicap actually may have something to say based on knowledge, observation or other - even if its second-hand info.
The trick is to enter the debate and get to the decision one-self which ias accepted or not as reasonable info. Each persons view will be different - even those who like the same boat ...
Now a post earlier had a clever comment that struck me as rather astute observation .... near all posts by Bav / Legend etc. AWB owners are "defending" the boat by saying that they didn't buy to go deep-sea, that the boat serves what they want etc. etc. It's as if they are agreeing with a lot of the economy criticism but wriggling free ....
Strange isn't it .... A HR owner wouldn't generally bother to justify his choice of boat ... he would be accepted as knowing what he wants ... but a Bav owner is like the VW Golf entering the car park ......
Sorry - and I really do mean sorry - I am not trying to offend ... just putting down in type the perception that comes across many posts from both Bav owners and non-owners ...
Me - I have a boat that I know will survive most that I can throw at it ... whether right or wrong - my inside says - if I hit that pontoon ... I am most likely to get away with it maybe with a ding or scratch in the gelcoat. For some reason I don't feel I would have the same result if doing same force with a Bav .... but again it is feeling and perception - not based on observation or fact ... I don't honestly know ... I use my gut reaction to having looked over boats for clients / myself etc.
We can all recite horror stories for many different models of boat .... Westerly's have had their Penny-Washer sagas with keel fixings. Weak structure to carry repeated grounding on bilge keels etc. etc.
Starlight's with faults ...... Sadlers etc. They have all had their Monday morning examples ....
One man or family has a slightly different criteria in boat to the next ... me ? I wanted max boat for my few £'s ... and I feel I got it .... she has done me proud ... but I also know that thousands out there wouldn't give her a second look. Fine by me.
Let me just say one thing .... I was spoken too rather badly and looked down upon by a AWB "skipper" when on Cowes refuel dock ... - he had squeezed in behind me - just as I was about to depart making it not so easy to leave ... so I took great delight in giving him an anxious moment ... he thought I was going to hit his lovely boat when leaving ... what he didn't know - I have an engine probably 2x his .... and I stop on the sixpence ... no joke ! I don't know why he had that attitude, nothing had ben done or warranted it .... Before anyone says it - it has not coloured my post here nor given me a complex about AWB's etc ..... but its to illustrate that we are all different and look upon our boats etc. in OUR own way ...
My 10K boat manky as she is .... is my pride and joy ... just the same as anyone elses here that costs 10x, 100x as much .....
I apologise for my long rant ....
zefender
Active member
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
You make a good point - it's not just about the money. Many of those hereabouts who sneer constantly at AWBs often have boats, albeit with a so called premium brand name, worth considerably less than a new AWB, even a Bav! Of course sailing and boat choice isn't just about money. It does cost a lot so if a boat can be found that ticks many of the boxes of needs and costs less than another that might tick a few too, it would be logical to buy the one at lower cost.
You are also right to point out that for some, interior space is more important to others. It's important to me because the British climate is wet and often cold. If I drag my family down to Portsmouth and it pisses with rain all day then we'd all spend the weekend squeezed into a tiny soloon, wet in the cockpit or huddling in MacDonalds (perish the though!). They then won't want to come sailing so I end up spending my weekends trailing round shopping centres, not sailing. I wanted a new boat because it would need less maintanence than an older one, probably. A new boat with similar space in a premium brand would have pushed my budget and caused me to cut back on all sorts of useful and totally irresponsible toys. A bigger boat would let me travel further, be faster, be less tippy etc etc. All perfectly respectable reasons for buying what I did. I don't feel I need to defend them per se but some people, as you say, need to recognise that their reasons for their boat purchase may not be the only permissable reasons. If I had the money, I'd probably buy a Grand Soleil 50 (more space, faster and beautiful too) but not a MAB design. But I might change as my choice factors change. I'm open-minded y'see!
You make a good point - it's not just about the money. Many of those hereabouts who sneer constantly at AWBs often have boats, albeit with a so called premium brand name, worth considerably less than a new AWB, even a Bav! Of course sailing and boat choice isn't just about money. It does cost a lot so if a boat can be found that ticks many of the boxes of needs and costs less than another that might tick a few too, it would be logical to buy the one at lower cost.
You are also right to point out that for some, interior space is more important to others. It's important to me because the British climate is wet and often cold. If I drag my family down to Portsmouth and it pisses with rain all day then we'd all spend the weekend squeezed into a tiny soloon, wet in the cockpit or huddling in MacDonalds (perish the though!). They then won't want to come sailing so I end up spending my weekends trailing round shopping centres, not sailing. I wanted a new boat because it would need less maintanence than an older one, probably. A new boat with similar space in a premium brand would have pushed my budget and caused me to cut back on all sorts of useful and totally irresponsible toys. A bigger boat would let me travel further, be faster, be less tippy etc etc. All perfectly respectable reasons for buying what I did. I don't feel I need to defend them per se but some people, as you say, need to recognise that their reasons for their boat purchase may not be the only permissable reasons. If I had the money, I'd probably buy a Grand Soleil 50 (more space, faster and beautiful too) but not a MAB design. But I might change as my choice factors change. I'm open-minded y'see!
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
No there is no need to apologise.
I have read, as many others will have various posts about the subject above.
Whatever boat you own large or small, AWB, classic or even mobo, if you love it rather than abuse it. If you use it rather than leave it in the marina or on its mooring to waste. If you show respect for other sea users, then there is nothing wrong with you or your boat.
I suspect that if someone is interested enough in boats, the sea and sailing to subscribe to this forum then they will deep down respect any boat, in varying degrees.
The AWB owner who looked down on you in Cowes is not a true yachtsman or boater, he will own a boat, 'cos its the thing to do, next year it will be a holiday villa in Spain etc. He should be treated as a passer by, not as one of us. Often making our way back up toward Northney on a sunday eve, you will see a whole collection of boats of differing size. Its a fair bet that the family with all the kids with their fishing nets and buckets, singing away will have had as much fun at East Head as the chap in the newish 40ft AWB will have had at Yarmouth.
If you like a Bav and it suits you, buy one. If you want a classic, that is your choice. If you must, get a mobo. Important thing is enjoy it.
It would make a very boring forum if we all liked the same boats!
No there is no need to apologise.
I have read, as many others will have various posts about the subject above.
Whatever boat you own large or small, AWB, classic or even mobo, if you love it rather than abuse it. If you use it rather than leave it in the marina or on its mooring to waste. If you show respect for other sea users, then there is nothing wrong with you or your boat.
I suspect that if someone is interested enough in boats, the sea and sailing to subscribe to this forum then they will deep down respect any boat, in varying degrees.
The AWB owner who looked down on you in Cowes is not a true yachtsman or boater, he will own a boat, 'cos its the thing to do, next year it will be a holiday villa in Spain etc. He should be treated as a passer by, not as one of us. Often making our way back up toward Northney on a sunday eve, you will see a whole collection of boats of differing size. Its a fair bet that the family with all the kids with their fishing nets and buckets, singing away will have had as much fun at East Head as the chap in the newish 40ft AWB will have had at Yarmouth.
If you like a Bav and it suits you, buy one. If you want a classic, that is your choice. If you must, get a mobo. Important thing is enjoy it.
It would make a very boring forum if we all liked the same boats!
trouville
N/A
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
I think this thread is way off.
Owneing a "baveria" is like owning a BMW X5 just a joke on theam! The X5 is the 4X4 that dosent have reduction gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I pulled one out of the snow while sking in Switzerland, the overdressed Chiness economy ski gear and the peroxide bloned! Thats the Baveria owner!!
I pulled them out with my Landrover, And even after the rape of Rover by the Baverian auto company BMW. Range Rover And land rover are all super off road vehicals.
But not the Baveria
BMW
My landrover was a 1958 classic which glides along any road with finess my range rover even better with her diff lock but i cant aford her petrol habit!!Thus my frugal and trusty landrover.
God help weak thin fall apart at at a touch baveria owners
I think this thread is way off.
Owneing a "baveria" is like owning a BMW X5 just a joke on theam! The X5 is the 4X4 that dosent have reduction gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I pulled one out of the snow while sking in Switzerland, the overdressed Chiness economy ski gear and the peroxide bloned! Thats the Baveria owner!!
I pulled them out with my Landrover, And even after the rape of Rover by the Baverian auto company BMW. Range Rover And land rover are all super off road vehicals.
But not the Baveria
BMWMy landrover was a 1958 classic which glides along any road with finess my range rover even better with her diff lock but i cant aford her petrol habit!!Thus my frugal and trusty landrover.
God help weak thin fall apart at at a touch baveria owners
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
And I thought French was the international language used in diplomatic circles!? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
And I thought French was the international language used in diplomatic circles!? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Phoenix of Hamble
Active member
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
Trouville....
A touch of sensible, decent rational debate appears, with some well considered, and carefully worded opinions, demonstrating that this forum is indeed habited by intellectually competent individuals, who after a somewhat heated, but interesting discussion, have reached a mutual understanding, that pretty much everyone seems to concur with.....and then...
a completely inane, rather pointless piece of troublemaking.... bit daft don't you think.... and IMHO makes you look daft too......
Trouville....
A touch of sensible, decent rational debate appears, with some well considered, and carefully worded opinions, demonstrating that this forum is indeed habited by intellectually competent individuals, who after a somewhat heated, but interesting discussion, have reached a mutual understanding, that pretty much everyone seems to concur with.....and then...
a completely inane, rather pointless piece of troublemaking.... bit daft don't you think.... and IMHO makes you look daft too......
Heckler
Active member
Re: Song of a happy Bavaria owner
mesmo quesa todo mundo, munto trabahlo, poco dinero
luta continua
mesmo quesa todo mundo, munto trabahlo, poco dinero
luta continua
FullCircle
Well-known member
Re: Generally I agree with Simon ...
<<<My landrover was a 1958 classic which glides along any road with finess>>>
for example....
Oops. 0/10 for observation. I drove the Queens Landies for quite a while, and in no stretch of the imagination could they be reported as having finesse. They were and are a work horse of their time. You must be deaf with a wooden backside, and strong fillings in your teeth.
There, I just spoiled your day, and I dont feel any better for doing it.
As NAS said, I think your post was unworthy in what has been a lively debate with both thoughtful and unthoughtful comment throughout. However, I completely support your right to write what you want.
I dont own a Breton cap either, but I might one day....
<<<My landrover was a 1958 classic which glides along any road with finess>>>
for example....
Oops. 0/10 for observation. I drove the Queens Landies for quite a while, and in no stretch of the imagination could they be reported as having finesse. They were and are a work horse of their time. You must be deaf with a wooden backside, and strong fillings in your teeth.
There, I just spoiled your day, and I dont feel any better for doing it.
As NAS said, I think your post was unworthy in what has been a lively debate with both thoughtful and unthoughtful comment throughout. However, I completely support your right to write what you want.
I dont own a Breton cap either, but I might one day....
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Sh*t stirring question...
...but genuinely asked.
Do today's crop of Bavarii sail better upwind than the generation of Bavs that were being produced about 5 years back?
...but genuinely asked.
Do today's crop of Bavarii sail better upwind than the generation of Bavs that were being produced about 5 years back?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Sh*t stirring question...
I always thought that you liked AWBs in general and Bavarias in particular? And we had just created a caring, loving environment too!
I always thought that you liked AWBs in general and Bavarias in particular? And we had just created a caring, loving environment too!
ashanta
New member
If I was in a collision with a BAV I know which boat would come of worse and it it wouldn't be mine.
They are built at the extreme of technology and when you're sailing with the kids an missis you want to feel secure. You pay your money you take you're chance.
They are built at the extreme of technology and when you're sailing with the kids an missis you want to feel secure. You pay your money you take you're chance.
FullCircle
Well-known member
Re: Sh*t stirring question...
Who knows whether the change of design house were given a different design brief on being appointed.
After all when I am in pre programme meetings, we discuss attributes that are relevant to the perceived customer and market requirement. It may define predicted upwind performance, and all other points. It will also define desin minima and criteria to fit RCD for instance, not to mention accommodation and also affordability (to both manufacturer and to fit the market segment).
So, to try and answer your question, a Dragon sails upwind better (actually damn near INTO the wind)than most things, well done Neils Jeppesen in 1937. Does not mean nothing has moved on since, and todays 'extreme' sports boats can do ridiculous speeds downwind, because that was their design brief.
Who knows whether the change of design house were given a different design brief on being appointed.
After all when I am in pre programme meetings, we discuss attributes that are relevant to the perceived customer and market requirement. It may define predicted upwind performance, and all other points. It will also define desin minima and criteria to fit RCD for instance, not to mention accommodation and also affordability (to both manufacturer and to fit the market segment).
So, to try and answer your question, a Dragon sails upwind better (actually damn near INTO the wind)than most things, well done Neils Jeppesen in 1937. Does not mean nothing has moved on since, and todays 'extreme' sports boats can do ridiculous speeds downwind, because that was their design brief.
G
Guest
Guest
trouble with design briefs ...
serious bit :> They all get "rationalised" once the costs get worked out .....
Best intentions and all that ...
I can imagine the brief on AWB's :> (now please I am having some fun here ....)
a) Satisfy the lady of the house with ample bed and wide "arse" room.
b) Make sure that if boat heels - wide "arse-room" keeps her on-board.
c) Make it look like she's doing 20 kts .... but keep it sensible for the lady ...
d) Galley must have latest gizmo and minimal battery space - with lots of optional extras to keep operational.
e) Lots of volume to allow Lady to entertain, removing that grab post as that hinders the dance area... Make sure plenty of "arse-room"
f) Squeeze wheel steering right aft - allowing plenty of "arse-room" in fwd part of cockpit for entertaining.
g) Above all else - keep overall costs down ....
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
serious bit :> They all get "rationalised" once the costs get worked out .....
Best intentions and all that ...
I can imagine the brief on AWB's :> (now please I am having some fun here ....)
a) Satisfy the lady of the house with ample bed and wide "arse" room.
b) Make sure that if boat heels - wide "arse-room" keeps her on-board.
c) Make it look like she's doing 20 kts .... but keep it sensible for the lady ...
d) Galley must have latest gizmo and minimal battery space - with lots of optional extras to keep operational.
e) Lots of volume to allow Lady to entertain, removing that grab post as that hinders the dance area... Make sure plenty of "arse-room"
f) Squeeze wheel steering right aft - allowing plenty of "arse-room" in fwd part of cockpit for entertaining.
g) Above all else - keep overall costs down ....
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
zefender
Active member
Re: Sh*t stirring question...
I've no idea but since mine is approaching 5 years old, I will happily call it a MAB/classic, built before the latest crop of clearly dangerous fragile saucers
I'm still trying to recover from the idea of a 1958 Land Rover gliding along the road with finesse!
I've no idea but since mine is approaching 5 years old, I will happily call it a MAB/classic, built before the latest crop of clearly dangerous fragile saucers
I'm still trying to recover from the idea of a 1958 Land Rover gliding along the road with finesse!
gandy
Active member
Re: trouble with design briefs ...
Also ..
i) Enough arse room that she doesn't have to drop her pants in the saloon, before reversing into the heads.
Also ..
i) Enough arse room that she doesn't have to drop her pants in the saloon, before reversing into the heads.
StugeronSteve
New member
Re: Sh*t stirring question...
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to recover from the idea of a 1958 Land Rover gliding along the road with finesse!
[/ QUOTE ] Those 50s models must have been more refined than the early 70s jobs that I used to have to drive. They were competent, but "finesse" just doesn't adequately describe their functionality!
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still trying to recover from the idea of a 1958 Land Rover gliding along the road with finesse!
[/ QUOTE ] Those 50s models must have been more refined than the early 70s jobs that I used to have to drive. They were competent, but "finesse" just doesn't adequately describe their functionality!
