Trip Debrief: What Went Right, Wrong, And What We Should Have Done Differently

[Loopy]

I always like learning from the experiences of others so I don't have to make all possible mistakes myself.

So we recently took our first overnight trip (21 hours, 120 miles). As this was a first for us and the forecast called for deteriorating conditions we engaged the services of a sailing school instructor to go with us as an instructor captain.

Forecast: At the time and place of departure called for conditions to be in the mid force 3 range, with some slight weakening late in the day and strengthing to force 4 about 3 hours before sunrise. Winds were forecast to be from the SSE with a swing to the SSW later in the forecast period. This change of direction never materialized, forecast wind strengths decreased as forecast and then increased to force 5 by the time of our arrival with the occasional higher gusts, though this happened late enough in the trip that the seas did not really have much time to build past about 5 feet.

We had the autopilot on and steering for the entire trip. Initially, we began the trip with full main and no headsail on a 310 course, and the main on a preventer secured to the starboard side of the boat. We were doing around 5-6 knots on a boat with a hull speed of 7.5 knots. As evening approached, we reached a waypoint that required a 25 degree turn to starboard, so we undid the preventer and gybed and now ran on a starboard tack on a very deep broad reach.

Mistake #1: Not re-rigging the preventer after our turn.

We did not accidentally gybe, but i ended up sheeting the mainsail in tight to reduce boom travel if we had. Still the initial part of the overnight sail was reasonably comfortable. Winds had decreased enough that we motorsailed for about 6 hours.

Mistake #2: Letting the sun set with a full main hoisted and a deteriorating forecast.

Around 2am the winds started to build significantly and 3am we began to see boat speeds approaching hull speed on main only. We woke up our pro to get some additional advice. He recommended we turn into the wind and attempt to reef the mainsail - particularly given the starboard turn at the next waypoint that would bring us onto a beam reach.

So we turned into the wind, now pounding into roughly five foot seas. He abandoned the idea to raise a reefed main and recommended we continue on our roller furling Genoa only as we could reduce that sail easily when sailing downwind and we would not run the risk of an accidental gybe on an unprevented main.

So we dropped the main and unrolled the genoa and continued on our way. The ride seemed to deteriorate dramatically with this strategy with port and starboard yawing +/- 20 degrees bringing the apparent wind from our stern to almost a beam reach at times. A few hours before morning, we noticed the boat wallowing in the troughs with a decrease in boat speed to the mid 4.5 knot range, with accelerations to the 9-12 knot range surfing down waves.

Fortunately as the wind and seas were all from the same direction we had no significant breaking waves to contend with.

We reduced our genoa, reached our next waypoint and turned to starboard, now running on a beam reach to destination. This reduced our yaw, but increased roll as we took the larger seas on the beam. After entering the bay we turned into the wind, doused the sails, and motored to destination.

I had been up 24 hours straight not wanting to leave my wife on watch alone and so asked pro to take us into the channel. He promptly not only ignored the channel markers, but also the bread crumbs on the chartplotter display (which I specifically told him about and asked him to follow) indicating our previous successful exit from the channel and tracked the charted channel inbound. Touched bottom, did not ground hard. Frankly, this sort of rookie mistake - which even I know not to do - surprised me from someone who had the stated experience he had.

So. What should we have done differently? Set the third reef in the main and continue on main and headsail at sunset so we could easily reduce sail area by furling the headsail on the roller as we proceeded downwind? Should we have set a preventer for the starboard tack we were on given the forecast wind shift that never materialized? If the wind had shifted and we had a preventer set we would have had to undo it as a further turn to starboard would have turned us into the shoreline. Advice to reduce yawing which seems to be not only a particularly uncomfortable motion but somewhat risky given the large shifts in apparent wind and risk of accidental gybes? The autopilot has a track hold and a wind hold mode. The former lets it track the magenta line, and that is the mode we operated it throughout. Would it have been a wiser plan to run it in wind hold mode making it work (I'm assuming) like a wind vane? Or given the degree to which the sea state was changing the apparent wind would that have made things worse?

I'm a commercial pilot, and the boat's motion downwind under headsail alone seemed very much like a dutch roll (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_roll) which in an aircraft of course is something to be avoided at all costs lest you enter a realm of negative stability and suffer an upset. Aircraft actually have redundant computerized yaw dampers to prevent this. I would like to think that this concept of negative stability is less relevant in a keelboat, but the existence of a capsize screening formula makes me wonder.

This seems to be the catch 22 of sailing that no amount of fair weather practice can prepare you for: You don't know what to do when conditions deteriorate until you are out in said conditions without knowing what to do in them.

An early 90s design, 12'8" at the beam, carries more of that aft than the extreme IOR boats but not as much as a modern design. Here she is by the numbers:

38', 32' LWL
S.A./Disp.: 16.46
Bal./Disp.: 34.35
Disp./Len.: 193.09
Comfort Ratio: 21.90
Capsize Screening Formula: 2.11

I think she's a good, solid boat I'm just not sure of the best way to keep her in the envelope so that she - and we - are equally happy.

 

[pcatterall]

I will be interested to read what some of our 'proper sailors' think.
It would be useful to know more about your yacht and the sail controls...………….Oh have you just added that info?
I would have set off with main and genoa deployed. If reducing the main is difficult with your set up I would have reduced the main in daylight.
You should always try to get your head down when you can, could you not kip when the expert was on watch, tiredness leads to bad decisions!

 

[Loopy]

Single line reefing, all halyards and lines led aft. Big genoa on a roller furler, main on a track in a stack pack. She does have a detachable inner forestay for a hanked on storm sail. I've used 15 knot peak gusts as sort of a yardstick to set reef 1 in the main, and used less than 2 foot seas with 15-17 peak gusts and a 2:1 period to wave height ratio as conditions that I was willing to be out in at our experience level. Which has worked reasonably well and kept us out of trouble.

The boat is far more capable than I am, her prior owners crossed the atlantic on the downwind passage from Europe to the Caribbean.

 

[neilf39]

My only comment would be that when sailing with the wave direction in largish waves, especially at an angle it's probably better to hand steer and not use the autopilot. You can anticipate the waves as they come and keep on a much straighter course than any autopilots I know (you steer to counteract the yaw just as it starts). I get a lot of yaw with my autopilot and it can get overwhelmed by a largish following sea.

 

[doug748]

Thanks for the post, and detail, I enjoyed the question.

Perhaps you put too much faith in the helper, as he turned out to be a duffer and only made things worse. Putting a reef in at force 5 should be made easy, if you doubt your present arrangements you can probably easily sort it.
In truth it was an unpleasant rather than a dangerous sail, it happens even when you expect an easy time.
Your confidence in the boat will no doubt grow and you will smile at your present doubts

 

[Skylark]

An interesting post I guess the acid test of a successful trip is if your wife plans to sail with you again?

I’m intrigued about the grounding. Why did the instructor / pro ignore the channel markers? Did he/she claim to have local knowledge?

My boat is current generation with a fat backside. She has very swept-back spreaders so I risk sail chafe with wind much abaft the beam. She is reasonably well balanced with two sails, reefed as needed. She’s happy to broad(ish) reach and gybe rather than run. A preventer is a good idea, depending upon how deep you sail.

In open seas. I set my autopilot to follow magnetic, having made allowance for tide. I rarely follow a route as it’s too prescriptive.

I strongly agree that getting rest on a rota passage is very important.

What’s next?

 

[Sandy]

I always reef before it gets dark, perhaps two given the forecast in this case.

Get as much sleep as you can, snoozing is recommended if you can't get your head down.

Lots of tea/coffee/soup

 

[flaming]

First of all, congratulations on a trip completed with no real issues. Don't underestimate the achievement that completing your first overnight sail is.

Your mistake 1 I agree with, when on passage I would rig a preventer as a matter of course. It's well worth thinking about your setup and tweaking it to allow this to be done easily. On my dad's old boat we had it set up so that you did not have to leave the cockpit to release the old preventer, gybe and pull on the new preventer. That was the gold standard of preventer that I highly recommend. Your mistake 2, I wouldn't class as a mistake. It might be my racing background but I wouldn't worry about exceeding hull speed.

Tough to say what I would have done differently without being there, but my initial thoughts are that I would have had both sails set at the start of the trip. Hopefully this would have reduced the need to motor sail. If I then decided that I needed to reduce sail I would have dropped the main if on a downwind course. I understand why this is sometimes uncomfortable when you have to turn round to reef and pound into the waves. (btw... I am suspecting that you are understating the wind, as I wouldn't expect to have 5 foot seas until the very top of a 4, more like a 5) Though with the expected turn to a reach I'd have given thought to reefing the main. Would depend on the crew experience and how easy it is to reef the boat.

Autopilot wise, I'd have done exactly what you did. Set to waypoint mode. The conditions you are describing aren't dangerous enough to worry about needing to hold a specific wind angle - especially once just on the genoa. So assuming that following the line exactly is the best course for the trip (i.e not a cross tide with an expected change of tide before you arrive at the waypoint) then why not make things easy for yourself?

I have no idea what a capsize screening forumla is... Anecdotally I have known a number of commercial pilots come at sailing with the same sort of highly methodical and detailed approach they take to their day job, and whilst in many respects it is to be commended, be careful of over thinking things and being too much "by the numbers". The conditions you describe are an exceedingly long way from being a risk to a well found 38 foot cruising boat. Capsizing a 38 foot boat is simply not going to happen until much, much further up the wind scale. The rule of thumb is that you need a breaking wave on the beam that is as tall as the boat is wide. So that's a breaking 12 foot wave. Put simply, just forget about the capsize risk, it's not real for the type of sailing you are describing.

The yawing you are experiencing under headsail is pretty normal, especially if your autopilot is from the same era as the boat. Worth seeing if it has a reaction rate that can be altered, turning that up can help the autopilot, but unless it's a fairly modern one with gyro compass then it will not be as good as a decent helmsperson in those conditions.

Entering the channel. Can only attribute that to someone who trusts the plotter a bit too much....

 

[Minchsailor]

"Getting rest is very important".

When passage making I start watches as soon as we leave port and the boat and navigation have settled down. Day watches are easier than night watches, and also allow the crew to get to know the boat. With a well equipped boat it is quite possible to sail with only one person on watch (and another on call), so even with only 3 on-board (my usual passage crewing) all can get good rest. I usually arrange watches so that I take the midnight to 0200 (or 0300) as I reckon this is probably the low point for crew.

My own boat is long keel/heavy displacement so probably has different handling characteristics to yours; but I like a balanced sail plan and it would be very unusual for me to sail under main only. I think having some jib up and reefing the main earlier may have helped.

It is easy enough to rig a preventer and I usually do when the wind is aft of the beam and there can be a bit of a sea. to prevent an accidental gybe Having a well reefed main may have helped with the rolling when you were only using the genoa.

As for the navigation - even with a 'professional' crew on-board, it is your vessel and you are the Captain. If you see something going wrong then it is your responsibility to take charge. This is often mentioned in MAIB reports when a commercial pilot has taken an action that the captain thought was inadvisable.

 

[LadyInBed]

I'm surprised that you had so much yaw running downwind on genoa alone. The force is pulling the boat along by the nose, so it should stay in a straight line. Maybe there was too much genoa out, did you have it out on a pole, if not, did it collapse at all?
My preferred rig for downwind is twin polled out headsails, I don't yaw, and that's with bilge keels!

 

[rotrax]

I'm surprised that you had so much yaw running downwind on genoa alone. The force is pulling the boat along by the nose, so it should stay in a straight line. Maybe there was too much genoa out, did you have it out on a pole, if not, did it collapse at all?
My preferred rig for downwind is twin polled out headsails, I don't yaw, and that's with bilge keels!

I was a little surprised at that too.

All our sailing boats have behaved well under genoa/jib downwind, usually without a pole if over F3.

In fact, our steel Hartley 32 which we sail in Windy Wellington is often to be found under genoa alone. She rolls a bit, but otherwise is fine. Always hand steered-the tiller pilot, like so many, is U/S.

Our 12 metre heavy motorsailer has a small rig and downwind in up to a F5 is happy but slow with the smallish self tacking jib on its Hoyt boom deployed. Our aft cockpit Island Packet 350 was really good with the 100% high cut yankee poled out to one side and the smaller staysail on its Hoyt boom the other when downwind. Rolling was acceptable, and speed-for a loaded heavy cruiser-was OK.

Well done for completing your first long overnight trip.

It sounds as if you were handicapped by your helper..............................

 

[Graham376]

Main point I think is to reef when you first suspect it may be necessary, easier to shake it out later than reef down when it's turned nasty. I'll sometimes drop the main as our boat sails well under genoa alone, particularly when my wife is on night watch. Long preventers via blocks and back to the cockpit can be rigged beforehand on both sides when sailing shorthanded. As far as running aground, it's your boat and you should have taken control if he didn't do as asked.

 

[Alskade]

This seems to be the catch 22 of sailing that no amount of fair weather practice can prepare you for: You don't know what to do when conditions deteriorate until you are out in said conditions without knowing what to do in them.

Hi Loopy

Great write-up and really appreciated. I think that you have hit the nail on the head with that sentence - it's really tricky isn't it. With each new situation you gain the next step-up in knowledge and skills base, but to get to that point sometimes it feels like a leap out of the comfort zone to get to it.

Thank you so much for passing on your thoughts and reflections on what went well and what didn't.

 

[RupertW]

There are a few that I would have done differently though not necessarily better and a lot depends on the boat.

Autopilot - if crossing a changing tidal stream then you get there quicker by setting to course rather than straight line to waypoint, assuming no obstacles in the s curve you will describe over the ground.

But one difference would be that as the wind increases so I no longer need all sails then if the wind is aft of 90 degrees then I keep reducing the main rather than the Genoa right down to full Genoa and no main, as this has two advantages- firstly that the danger of a boom sweeping across (or spending time on deck in the kill zone putting on preventers) decreases and secondly that gusts on a main can cause the boat to round up towards the wind and give extra work to the auto helm. Under Genoa the helm is a lot lighter and less power or fast response needed from the autohelm. So the good decision was dropping the main.

But the biggest difference is you staying up and not grabbing sleep - that leads to awful reactions and decisions and also means that your wife didn’t even get the chance to gain real responsibility and achievement compared to say you catnapping in full gear in the saloon with her told to call you. I don’t know how else my girlfriend, now wife, would ever have become my constant sailing companion if I hadn’t thrown her in at the deep end. Those who don’t find themselves sailing by themselves or unable to do many night passages or, deep horror, only sailing with like minded male crews.

 

[lw395]

In waves, I'd probably first try switching off the autopilot and sailing the boat.
I expect the autpilot was making things worse.
But then, that's just me. Most of the time if I'm on deck needing to keep watch, I prefer to be steering not jsut sat there. Personal choice.


5 foot waves are no problem if they are long, 5 foot of Solent chop is wet and messy, so it's hard to be sure how much of a problem you should have had.
I might have avoided sailing to a pre-planned track if deviating from it gave a better ride. E.g head more across the waves when the wind is against the tide, plan to bear off more or even gybe later when the tide changes. Not having the whole passage plan and forecasts it's hard to be specific.

I would not be reefing too early, there is a balance in favour of making good progress before the wind rises.
I would be looking to understand why reefing was hard and sort it, and also look at a preventer system that can be released and applied from the cockpit. We use the blocks and clutches intended for the spinaaker pole foreguy, but lines lead around a bow cleat and back to the stern cleat might do.

Absolutely get some sleep as early in the trip as you can. We would decide a watch system as soon as we were out of harbour. I imagine tiredness caused the errors entering port.

Getting a third person is a very good idea, it sounds like you may have chosen the wrong one.

But all in all, you've done well, you clearly understand there are things to improve, I think you are on the right track.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

First of all, congratulations on a trip completed with no real issues. Don't underestimate the achievement that completing your first overnight sail is.

Your mistake 1 I agree with, when on passage I would rig a preventer as a matter of course. It's well worth thinking about your setup and tweaking it to allow this to be done easily. On my dad's old boat we had it set up so that you did not have to leave the cockpit to release the old preventer, gybe and pull on the new preventer. That was the gold standard of preventer that I highly recommend. Your mistake 2, I wouldn't class as a mistake. It might be my racing background but I wouldn't worry about exceeding hull speed.

Tough to say what I would have done differently without being there, but my initial thoughts are that I would have had both sails set at the start of the trip. Hopefully this would have reduced the need to motor sail. If I then decided that I needed to reduce sail I would have dropped the main if on a downwind course. I understand why this is sometimes uncomfortable when you have to turn round to reef and pound into the waves. (btw... I am suspecting that you are understating the wind, as I wouldn't expect to have 5 foot seas until the very top of a 4, more like a 5) Though with the expected turn to a reach I'd have given thought to reefing the main. Would depend on the crew experience and how easy it is to reef the boat.

Autopilot wise, I'd have done exactly what you did. Set to waypoint mode. The conditions you are describing aren't dangerous enough to worry about needing to hold a specific wind angle - especially once just on the genoa. So assuming that following the line exactly is the best course for the trip (i.e not a cross tide with an expected change of tide before you arrive at the waypoint) then why not make things easy for yourself?

I have no idea what a capsize screening forumla is... Anecdotally I have known a number of commercial pilots come at sailing with the same sort of highly methodical and detailed approach they take to their day job, and whilst in many respects it is to be commended, be careful of over thinking things and being too much "by the numbers". The conditions you describe are an exceedingly long way from being a risk to a well found 38 foot cruising boat. Capsizing a 38 foot boat is simply not going to happen until much, much further up the wind scale. The rule of thumb is that you need a breaking wave on the beam that is as tall as the boat is wide. So that's a breaking 12 foot wave. Put simply, just forget about the capsize risk, it's not real for the type of sailing you are describing.

The yawing you are experiencing under headsail is pretty normal, especially if your autopilot is from the same era as the boat. Worth seeing if it has a reaction rate that can be altered, turning that up can help the autopilot, but unless it's a fairly modern one with gyro compass then it will not be as good as a decent helmsperson in those conditions.

Entering the channel. Can only attribute that to someone who trusts the plotter a bit too much....

+1 . Your use of the autopilot for the whole trip, I would think, is an indication of your day job. In those conditions hand steering would have produced a more favourable result. As to lack of sleep, my own personal strategy is to get my sack-time in early in the trip, during daylight , when the rest of the crew can be left to steer the boat. Some skippers only think to initiate a watch system as darkness approaches, but it is better to observe watches from the outset.
Your wife's confidence at the helm (and your confidence in her abilities!) would be enhanced by having a spell on the wheel as darkness approaches, so that she is gets used to night sailing gradually., and leave her to steer while you are below, and not looking over her shoulder.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

good read, its a hard one because unless you're there in those exact circumstances only you are best positioned to know what it was really like, no idea why the professional led you aground though that does sound very odd, you must have had a plan before even setting off, a sailing school instructor should know better

im also surprised he agreed to you staying up 24 hours while still being skipper and didn't have a watch system in place, i would have sent my crew below to rest, simple mistakes can happen after concentrating for extended periods without rest, especially at night.

you do acknowledge things i would have done on night passages i.e sticking in a reef prior to the sun setting, or sailing a reduced sail plan at night so you can be "off watch" and leave your wife and the "pro" on watch while you take a break, my personal preference but i sleep better being underpowered on the main and furling out more or less genoa as required as this is all done from the cockpit

With single line reefing and all lines led aft that should have been fairly straight forward even in a F5/6, so odd that you would abandon reefing and opt for genoa only, again this is just experience on my boat which sails better with both and is very easy to reef even if it means 5 minutes of uncomfortable head to wind / upwind sailing while its done, the boats never in any danger, just uncomfortable, perhaps your boat; Genoa only was the right decision

having just the genoa could cause an uncomfortable motion, again different boats behave differently so not a definitive answer, equally could be a setting on your autopilot, downwind in following seas i find its a nicer ride to hand steer and is very manageable with a decent watch system, especially with 3 on board so you can take short stints at the helm.

 

[lw395]

Main point I think is to reef when you first suspect it may be necessary, easier to shake it out later than reef down when it's turned nasty. I'll sometimes drop the main as our boat sails well under genoa alone, particularly when my wife is on night watch. Long preventers via blocks and back to the cockpit can be rigged beforehand on both sides when sailing shorthanded. As far as running aground, it's your boat and you should have taken control if he didn't do as asked.

 

[andyp]

I would certainly agree that reefing at night is not for the faint-hearted.

You said your "expert" advised heading into wind to reef, which is the classic approach. In any kind of rising wind or sea (basically whenever reefing at sea) I prefer to heave to for reefing - if sea-room permits. Then the genoa clew is not trying to decapitate me and the main can often be eased enough to easily pull down the luff to the next tack ring.

I think you said single-line reefing with lines lead aft? Should be even easier to do hove-to with only the halyard tended from the mast.

As you say, the only way to get experience is to be out there. Shame about your choice of "expert".

 

[zoidberg]

Most of the valid comments have been made.

You can arrange for preventers to be utilised, adjusted and released - all from the cockpit.

You can arrange for a 'boom brake' device to slow any tendency for a violent gybe ( caused by sudden wave action ) to cause damage - human and rig. This need not be expensive - I use a climbers' Figure Of Eight Descendeur to introduce the controllable friction....less than £20.

You need not be concerned about 'hull speed'. It is not VNE but a merely theoretic number created by mounting wave drag. We all enjoy beating the system now and then....

Yes, get all the sleep, power naps and snoozes you can. Routinely.

And don't forget that, unlike a Dreamliner, you CAN just stop the boat. Any time. That's invaluable when you want a cuppa tea, a pee, or simply a 'think about what next'. There are several ways, but I'd suggest an early training session, with a different 'pro', about Heaving-To. IMHO you and I both need that technique up our sleeves.

One further suggestion regarding a process with which you will be familiar. There is merit when looking to enter an unfamiliar harbour/marina/approach channel, to carry out a deliberate Approach to Minimums and then a Missed Approach Procedure...... Having a briefed Decision Point is sound practice.

Enjoi!