Time for more regulations ????

[electrosys]

Reading the thread tonight about the RNLI reminded me of someone, who in the near future, is highly likely to be in need of their services.

The 'someone' I refer to has recently purchased himself a 30' ish wooden ketch dating from the 1930's. He has no experience whatsoever. Never been to seas before. Does not know how to read a chart or interpret a weather forecast, even if he knew how to get one.
I learn today that he intends sailing his yacht from Gosport to South Wales in the next few weeks, because he cannot afford the marina fees here.

Suggestion 1: Mind your own business. What's it got to do with you anyway ?

Suggestion 2: Ok, so you've decided to take on the role of 'my brother's keeper' - so what's the best strategy to adopt ?

One of my favourite sayings in life is: "you don't know, what you don't know." Put into context, this guy sounds as if there are things that he doesn't even know that he ought to know about - so where's the motivation for him to find out ?
If he does know that there are things he ought to know about, but ignores them, then he's an idjut. But right now, it sounds as if he's simply completely ignorant of the reality of being out on the water.

So - my suggestion is for you to figure out some way of getting this guy offshore for a day or two: somebody needing a hand to crew, or whatever. You may find that a hefty dose of reality will get him to re-evaluate his ideas.

 

[Tranona]

Neither is a car registration document- it records the 'keeper'.

That doesn't stop it from being the means of taxation!

That is my point. The car registration system is designed to record the person responsible for the liabilities including tax that arise from the car. Ships registers are not. Quite possible to design a register for boats, but a nightmare to implement as you have hundreds of thousands of boats that would need identifying, inspecting to confirm their existence and establishing the individual responsible for them.

 

[Tranona]

Not quite sure about this. My Part 1 Registration is 'Certificate of British Registration - Particulars of Ship', and at the bottom ' Details of Ownership'.

The difference at the moment (from car registration and land registration for example) is that Part 1 only regsiters title and records ownership. Any financial liabilities accrue to the ship not to the owners. If you were going to make this a basis for taxation then the register would need to identify an individual or corporate body as the equivalent of the keeper.

Similarly, the SSR is not a register of anything other than a confirmation that the (self declared) boat is British. Not all boats that are based in Britain, and you might want to tax are actually British, or can't be registered because of the status of the owner, and there are many British registered boats that are not in the UK and never have been.

So, if you want a register for tax purposes it has to be designed for that purpose, identifying what sort of boat qualifies for the register, identifying and confirming all boats that meet the requirement and define a person responsible. Fine if you are starting from scratch with no boats in existence, but imposing on the curent boat population would be a massive task.

 

[Appledore]

So, if you want a register for tax purposes it has to be designed for that purpose, identifying what sort of boat qualifies for the register, identifying and confirming all boats that meet the requirement and define a person responsible. Fine if you are starting from scratch with no boats in existence, but imposing on the curent boat population would be a massive task.

'Drawing lines' and 'Lengths of string' come to mind here

Where would one start? Let's hope it never happens.

 

[davidej]

I don't see the problem.

If the govt wanted to, it could slip a clause in a finance bill making all registered yachts pay an annual levy. It would be your problem if you were registered as the 'owner' of a boat that didn't actually belong to you.

Now if they wanted to tax dinghys/ windsurfers/ ribs etc, that would be difficult

 

[jimbaerselman]

There is a beautiful irony in this discussion.

The British Isles and the Irish Republic have some of the most challenging cruising conditions in the world, including some of the busiest commercial traffic.

Yet local sailors do not have to register ownership of any leisure craft, and those craft do not have to meet any seaworthiness criteria or carry any special kit. Since the craft do not (officially) exist, no driving licences are needed. There are a few rules of conduct, which if broken, may raise a fine (speed limits, TSS rules).

And throughout the rest of Europe, where cruising conditions are quite benign by comparison (with the honourable exceptions of N France and Norway), ever more strict regulations control:

Registration of craft (as short as 2.4m in some places)
Equipment carried by the above
Where they may be sailed
Who may sail them
What licences are needed to be in charge

One can only assume that foolish Brits, Irish and Vikings perished or scared themselves stiff when they started out (the Darwinian theory), thus leaving only the careful and knowledgeable to sally forth. No need for further filters.

Those easier areas where people don't get scared by fog, rocks don't play hide and seek, and currents don't sweep you backwards, don't enjoy this Darwinian filter. Logic breaks down now.

Theoretically, lower accident rates mean less need for intervention. But bureaucrats were invented to invent rules. So regulations rule in the Med . . .

 

[fergie_mac66]

Not quite sure about this. My Part 1 Registration is 'Certificate of British Registration - Particulars of Ship', and at the bottom ' Details of Ownership'.






IIRC the RYA used to be responsible for SSR until forced to hand it over to the DVLA. First stages of compulsion??? I see no validity in having to be registered twice. It would cost me twice as much for no gain! Registration is nice to have, and perhaps compulsory for some European countries, but for the poor guy starting out, there are better things to spend money on when going to sea.

I hope it doesn't come to pass!!!!

With regard to SSR they would need one list, which would simplify the colletion . Unless they have a few bands like cars then they could charge 2ce as much for part1's

 

[onesea]

One can only assume that foolish Brits, Irish and Vikings perished or scared themselves stiff when they started out (the Darwinian theory), thus leaving only the careful and knowledgeable to sally forth. No need for further filters.

Those easier areas where people don't get scared by fog, rocks don't play hide and seek, and currents don't sweep you backwards, don't enjoy this Darwinian filter. Logic breaks down now.

Theoretically, lower accident rates mean less need for intervention. But bureaucrats were invented to invent rules. So regulations rule in the Med . . .

Or people realise that "sailing is not for them" much quicker in these conditions...

 

[fergie_mac66]

The difference at the moment (from car registration and land registration for example) is that Part 1 only regsiters title and records ownership. Any financial liabilities accrue to the ship not to the owners. If you were going to make this a basis for taxation then the register would need to identify an individual or corporate body as the equivalent of the keeper.

Similarly, the SSR is not a register of anything other than a confirmation that the (self declared) boat is British. Not all boats that are based in Britain, and you might want to tax are actually British, or can't be registered because of the status of the owner, and there are many British registered boats that are not in the UK and never have been.

So, if you want a register for tax purposes it has to be designed for that purpose, identifying what sort of boat qualifies for the register, identifying and confirming all boats that meet the requirement and define a person responsible. Fine if you are starting from scratch with no boats in existence, but imposing on the curent boat population would be a massive task.

SSR records length and type of vessel.The point being once it was compulsory to be registered and have a disc displayed.Local councils would get a cut and they could/would sweep local marinas, moorings very quickly any not displaying would get fines.Usage of maritime law, writs nailed to mast etc, they could sweep perhaps 60/70% of vessels quite quickly. Some would escape, still would be a lot of money collected.The vast majority pay their taxes without being pushed. Those that remain would have to "hide" and would still be subject to UKBA while on undisclosed trips . Already have charges in many harbours in addition to mooring fees .

 

[savageseadog]

I can see it leading to compulsory SOON notifications (Statutory Off Ocean Notification). We have already got to the point where we can't keep an old banger on the drive without a load of nonsense.

Seriously, compulsory registration, is, regretfully, on its way sometime reasonably soon together with wealth taxes and other annual charges, in commission or not. We should treasure our last few years of freedom because I don't see how it will be resisted. Look at how e-borders is going.

 

[Searush]

(snip) Look at how e-borders is going.

Sure, but they haven't tried implementing it yet have they?


Give over this guff will you, please or some idiot will try to do it & it will end up costing us & the tax payers a fortune, cos it won't generate enough to cover the costs of the quango required to implement it.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Sure, but they haven't tried implementing it yet have they?


Give over this guff will you, please or some idiot will try to do it & it will end up costing us & the tax payers a fortune, cos it won't generate enough to cover the costs of the quango required to implement it.

yep thats certain, it will generate some more bonuses for some fat cats

 

[Arigatou]

How old is this person? If he's an adult (as I assume) then I'm sure he's big enough to make his own decisions. If he makes stupid decisions then so be it.

 

[Tranona]

SSR records length and type of vessel.The point being once it was compulsory to be registered and have a disc displayed.

You are still missing the point. The SSR depends on SELF DECLARATION. There is no means of checking that the boat or the person actually exist, never mind whether the details are correct. The only purpose of the SSR is to confirm to officials in other countries that the boat is confirmed as being a British Ship within the terms of the MSA.

 

[Babylon]

Reading the thread tonight about the RNLI reminded me of someone, who in the near future, is highly likely to be in need of their services.

When he returns to his boat this weekend I will of course advise him in no uncertain terms
that in my opinion it would madness to take the boat to sea, and point out to him the reasons why & the dangers he will be putting himself in. He is however, a very head strong character & I have doubt he will listen to me.

So in the interests of safety whats to be done? For my part I will be contacting QHM to advise of my concerns in the hope they will impound the boat. Nothing more I can do.

Sandyman

I applaud you for being concerned for the life of a fellow human being - idiot or otherwise. Although I'm not one for more regulation in yachting (I'm with VO5 on the need for education), I do think that we lose our humanity when we get to the point where we don't give a s**t about someone's life.

You've been put in a difficult position. Two options:

* Have a quiet word with QHM. By doing so you're effectively transferring up your unasked-for 'responsibility' to people who can make the approppriate decision and take action, if they deem it appropriate, using what powers are already available to them.

* Offer to take him out for a sail on your boat. BUT first get him sloshed the night before, feed him a greasy breakfast, and hide the Stugeron and anything containing ginger. Start off with a bit of downwind motoring so he gets the exhaust fumes deep into his lungs. Then - once you're in a nice bit of wind over tide or on the edge of some unpleasant overfalls, preferably overcanvassed - send him below to do a whole series of basic chartwork exercises like continually plotting your position, followed by working out some tidal heights, then send him below again to make some strong coffee. You might have to clean up his vomit, but you'll have taught his inner-child a most valuable lesson.

To those people who quote Darwinism as a reason for cackling at some poor soul's foolishness, I think they misunderstand the Theory of Evolution - which works at the level of the species over a great many generations rather than at the misfortune of one individual.

Personally I like to quote Isaac Beshevis Singer, who once said: "We have to believe in free will - we have no choice!"

 

[fergie_mac66]

You are still missing the point. The SSR depends on SELF DECLARATION. There is no means of checking that the boat or the person actually exist, never mind whether the details are correct. The only purpose of the SSR is to confirm to officials in other countries that the boat is confirmed as being a British Ship within the terms of the MSA.

Respectfully IMO That doesn't matter at all .If it is made compulsory then the large majority will pay , because they obey the law,they may object but would still obey, that is what the British do . The others without a disc in a marina, or on a harbor mooring will be sore thumbs or will have to get an illegal copy, any without would be subject to sanctions, confiscation at the extreme. If you were on a mooring and the tax inspector,council jobsworth comes to call you would have to justify your lack of disc or display of a copy . Sledghammer to crack a nut but all sort of officials could be given power and would enjoy it IE.UKBA ,would you argue with them

IF a boat has no disc and its not registered to anybody then there is nobody to complain when its sold to someone who will pay the tax .

The purpose of the SSR is whatever it is made to be.If it becomes compulsory same as a car.A lot of people don't have TV licenses but most do,A lot of money is still collected.

 

[Tranona]

I admire your simplistic view of what is possible. Suggest you look at the difficulties the Italians are having in establishing their proposed tax on boat ownership - and they already have a compulsory registration system in place for the boats they are targetting.

You are right, it is not difficult to define a simple registration system, but if the purpose is solely to raise revenues, there are much easier ways of doing it. Don't think in this climate any scheme which involves huge extra resources and places more power with people who don't currently have those powers will get much support.

 

[westernman]

I used to cross the bay near where I live in France with my Hobie Cat from time to time. My boat was not properly equipped for this as for a small part of this crossing I was more than 2nm from the coast in any direction.

There is a whole list of extra equipment I am supposed to have. Including an anchor - a fat load of good that is 2 miles from the beach.

 

[Mark-1]

So did he go? How did he get on?

 

[lenseman]

So did he go? How did he get on?

I hear that the red and white budgie rescued him but the yacht was lost to Chesil Beach. He was suffering from severe hypothermia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-17621743
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