Time for more regulations ????

[Sandyman]

Reading the thread tonight about the RNLI reminded me of someone, who in the near future, is highly likely to be in need of their services.

The 'someone' I refer to has recently purchased himself a 30' ish wooden ketch dating from the 1930's. He has no experience whatsoever. Never been to seas before. Does not know how to read a chart or interpret a weather forecast, even if he knew how to get one.
I learn today that he intends sailing his yacht from Gosport to South Wales in the next few weeks, because he cannot afford the marina fees here.

I do not consider the boat seaworthy. Far from it, to do such a passage this time of year.
Without going into great detail, but to set the scene, I can say the standing rigging is in a desperate state with strands of wire broke on a number of shrouds, and the standing rigging must be 25 years old, if not even older. I wont even mention the condition of the sails. The engine has a number of leaks such that the bilge pump operates every 15 mins or so. Yes its that bad. The hull itself looks basically sound. There is no safety equipment.

When he returns to his boat this weekend I will of course advise him in no uncertain terms
that in my opinion it would madness to take the boat to sea, and point out to him the reasons why & the dangers he will be putting himself in. He is however, a very head strong character & I have doubt he will listen to me.

So in the interests of safety whats to be done? For my part I will be contacting QHM to advise of my concerns in the hope they will impound the boat. Nothing more I can do.

The above is a classic example of why I believe it is time that there was a legal requirement in force such that all pleasure boat owners /skippers going to sea had to have some form of qualifications.

Comments................

 

[tcm]

No

I can’t justify everyone needing qualifications - just cos of a few tw*ts intent on killing themselves. Note - they kill themselves. Not anyone else. Ok so the rnli go out - they’re volunteers, so their choice too.

Note that even with regulation... the tw*ts who don’t read forecasts ... also wdn’t know about the need for qualifications! So they’d still go out, illegally this time but what’s the difference....while the rest of us ponce about getting qualified at extra expense.

Tell you what - at YOUR expense YOU teach him all aboiut sailing and forecasts. See? Can’t be bothered can yer? But that’s what tax is - it’s your time/money.

 

[DaveS]

I have to say I'm with TCM here. Ultimately if an idiot wishes to kill himself, well, what are we supposed to do about it? I'd rather someone took to sea in an unseaworthy boat than drove down a motorway the wrong way killing others or jumped in front of a train causing chaos for thousands. So he doesn't know enough to realise he's in danger? Well he'll maybe learn, but if it does all go wrong, to be brutal about it the human species is hardly endangered - quite the contrary in fact - so one individual removing himself from the gene pool is no big deal.

 

[onesea]

Reading the thread tonight about the RNLI reminded me of someone, who in the near future, is highly likely to be in need of their services......

The above is a classic example of why I believe it is time that there was a legal requirement in force such that all pleasure boat owners /skippers going to sea had to have some form of qualifications.

Comments................

No No and No...

How do you expect it to be implemented? A man coming down to MOT the boat each year? Cost £300-£400 pounds a year? Before maintaining your gear.

Can you not see the test?
Your boat has 8 berths but only 4 life jackets? (you normally only take 4 people or keep a couple in the car for sailing with friends) . So your boat is only capable of taking 4 people? Mid season you take 2 extra life Jackets you have to apply to have 6 people onboard?

You can see it coming, has this life-jacket been professionally serviced in the last 12 months?

What safety gear do you need?
Are we going have to state each year what category your boat is in?
Then when the wind is a nice N3 and your mates are setting of to Poole in a rally you cannot go as you do not have the Classification to do so?

Every publication on-board kept corrected and up-to-date? All machinery and equipment serviced to manufactures recommendations?

Gas serviced by CORGI man regularly.

Rigging replaced in full every 5-10 years every chafing rope replaced annually? Any changes to boats design approved?

Maintenance records to prove that all maintenance has been carried out appropriately.

Basically all boats would eventually become coded...


Or do you have a tick-list of:
Navigation lights, sea cocks, fire extinguishers, fire blanket, Flares, Radio, EPIRB, PLB, Man-overboard light, anchor, Life-raft.

Oh but most of those are to call for people or wait for people when in distress, so you do not solve the problem?

As for "someone" suggest they take a crew, recommend why you will not be that man. If I have the time I would before setting off fix leaks etc.

Remember that some that are considered great sailor now set of without much better knowledge. They have scared themselves and have taught themselves and in one or 2 cases they may have killed themselves, but that is rare.

If you feel that strongly report him to QHM.

What's likely to happen if he sails? First day Cowes? maybe long day getting there if he does not know about tides. Or he ends up in Ryde boat sitting on side? He goes aground, it gets rough, misty, a big ship hoots him he scares himself heads to port?

Yes there are many other worst case scenarios but I would say sailing will "not be for him" before to long. Or he will take to boating and live the dream... Its possible he knows his boat better than allot who would pay to have the boat certified. He patches up as he see's the faults and gets buy...

If he is that big a numpty he would need lifeboat with or without a certified boat.

 

[uxb]

Sandyman, let Darwinism take it's course..

Hopefully he'll make it OK with plenty of tales for the pub and no 'Captain Calamity' media rubbish.

 

[PhillM]

Souds like lack of money is making him desperate. In his heart-of-heart he prob knows that he cannot afford to keep the boat, but he really wants to. So, he is looking at short cuts so he gets to keep his boat.

You need to make him see that he is going to need to get the work done sooner or later, so its best to do it sooner and before he sets to sea.

You could offer to help him with the passage BUT you will only do so when you feel his craft is up to the standard that it needs to be.

Another aproach could be to suggest that for his own safety he gets a FREE RNLI sea check done. They will visit and give him unbiased advice. Perhaps hearing from the RNLI will make him see sense.

Last, resort tell his wife what you think and let them sort it out!

 

[Iliade]

After mentioning your concerns, you could offer to coach him in met. & nav. and even to sail in company with him, assuming that your vessel has no defects ;0)

A lovely sail at this time of year, little risk to you and a nice warm feeling at having helped someone out...

 

[Mark-1]

No

I can’t justify everyone needing qualifications - just cos of a few tw*ts intent on killing themselves. Note - they kill themselves. Not anyone else. Ok so the rnli go out - they’re volunteers, so their choice too.

Note that even with regulation... the tw*ts who don’t read forecasts ... also wdn’t know about the need for qualifications! So they’d still go out, illegally this time but what’s the difference....while the rest of us ponce about getting qualified at extra expense.

Tell you what - at YOUR expense YOU teach him all aboiut sailing and forecasts. See? Can’t be bothered can yer? But that’s what tax is - it’s your time/money.

+1.

It isn't rocket science so he'll probably make it or safely give up somewhere
along the way. If not, it's his life.

 

[Appledore]

Sandyman is now in a quandary. The 'what if' and the 'if only' situation. The what if I don't now do something about it, and he disappears forever, and therefore the 'if only I had done something, he might still be here'.

However, RYA courses do NOT give anyone a qualification to do anything. The courses give you a Certificate of Competence at a certain level. I am not in favour of all water users having to be 'legally trained', but I would not be too happy if anyone who perhaps did not have boat insurance smacked into my own boat! Really, it is up to the individual to know his/her capabilities, but also to listen to good advice from friends and perhaps club members.

If it were me, I would perhaps chat to said sailor, and, as others have suggested, go through a safety inventory check, perhaps go out with him for a couple of hours and assess his handling skills. Then give him my personal opinion about everything. If anything then went wrong, at least you can say that you tried your best.

 

[little_roundtop]

Freedom

I think this thread touches the very heart of what we call "freedom". I have always believed that we are all free to do as we please - as long as our actions do not impact others.

So this person has every right to exercise his personal freedom to put to sea in an unsound boat and with zero knowledge and experience.

The heroes at the RNLI also have the freedom to choose whether to go and save the fool when he gets into trouble.

 

[Litotes]

Hard cases make bad law.

In any case, there is very little, if any, evidence to suggest that more regulation (even if it were practicable) would prevent these occasional "idiocies".

I would want to see some very solid evidence indeed to justify the loss of freedom and great expenses and upheavals to the vast majority that would be involved in trying to contain the "idiocies" of the tiny minority.

 

[Twister_Ken]

We bemoan the cost and waste and time taken up by 'bureaucracy', yet there are those who want to add to it.

 

[rickym]

I also strongly disagree with legislation, it will not make boating safer.

Perhaps as others have suggested you get him to have a RNLI safety check as he is so new to sailing. Lend him a few good books to help his learning saying something like "I found these useful when I started"

Ask him to share his plans with you, it will soon be obvious if he hasn't thought about tides or has suitable charts for the voyage. Have a discussion about engines and sails and weather. An anecdote "when I was off windy point wind against tide in a F6 broached twice and bust the lower futtock shroud" might have him think again.

If he determined then let him go suggest he waits for good weather and lets the coastguard know of his plans then wave him a cheery goodbye!

 

[fergie_mac66]

Guess you would have stopped Shane Acton

 

[Appledore]

If he determined then let him go suggest he waits for good weather and lets the coastguard know of his plans then wave him a cheery goodbye!

Yes

 

[Thistle]

+1 for telling him about the RNLI safety check (which is both helpful and free.) What about lending (or giving) him copies of a chart for the start of his voyage, Col Regs and the RYA booklets on Day Skipper and Cruising Yacht Safety?

 

[nevis]

surley if the cost of a marina berth is the main reason for his proposed trip,would it not be a good idea to advise him that there are places in the Solant area where you can keep a boat at a very reasonable cost ie mud berth or half tide these are advertised regularley in PBO

 

[Robin]

There are unqualified twats and fully qualified twats. There are boats bristling with all the new gadgets and gizmos and those with nothing much at all, either could get into trouble.

Many years ago French regulations insisted on French boats carrying certain gear in order to go more than a set distance from a safe harbour and this probably still applies. It doesn't say anywhere that you must know how to use the equipment, just that you have it on board. Anyone here like to say French boats are less likely to need help as a result?

I know a few qualified Yachtmasters that I would not sail any distance with, just as I know many people that have no qualifications at all that I would be very happy to cross oceans with. Who taught the first teachers of the RYA word I wonder? Did God create the first Yachtmaster Instructors to start things off? We bought our last boat from a fully qualified Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor, who told me there was no deviation on the main compass and hence no deviation card was needed. I swung the compass and found 9 degrees of deviation, yet this boat had done the Azores and Back race and been all round the Med, ah the wonders of modern electronics.

Most idiots like this one appears to be will discover their big yellow streak soon after leaving harbour and will give up. Someone once said to me they would rather charter their boat to a relative newbie than to a bunch of gung ho Yachtmasters for weekend booze run and determined to sail at all costs.

 

[Tintin]

I'm with UXB - let natural selection take its course

 

[Mark-1]

Good idea, Thistle. I've got a copy of "Yachtmaster" he can have for nothing and an old copy of Reeds which will be better than nothing as long as he gets tide times from elsewhere. I can drop off at Gosport any time. My details are in my profile.