Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[billskip]

You have correctly summarised the paradox! But that is what the letter of the law says. Consider for example that a boat made in the US and CE marked at the time (to the old directive), sailed there and then brought across the pond cannot be imported to either France or the U.K. even although sister ships may have arrived before the directive changed and can legitimately be here and sold on (but not moved between the U.K. and EU anymore!). Old boats don’t get condemned they remain in their existing market under grandfather rights, but each market defines its own rules on what arrivals are permitted (i believe they called it “taking back control”!). Of course each market can also decide how much effort to put into enforcing such rules. You could of course bring the HR in, pay the vat on it and get a post construction assessment to bring the paperwork up to date (potentially requiring a reengine) but the price difference isn’t usually that good to make that viable.

Ok but my concern is that the French owner can temp import into UK and use it.
This is bordering on discrimination between owners, and the noted clime down on manufacturer ce acceptance was obviously also due to discrimination.
The import of other items such as cars is different, ( ok I know boats are boats and cars are cars.)..It would be helpful if a know example,and paperwork from the gov.uk of an application refusal subject to..eg...was available.

 

[dunedin]

Why don't you read the Act yourself, it's fairly easy to understand. It's not just me saying it, and if you look at the RYA website, they say exactly the same, but are a bit behind the newer updates.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

*This article was originally published in June 2021, before being updated in February 2022, and then again in November 2022, to reflect timeframe changes made by the UK government. The latest update was in August 2023, following the announcement that the CE mark will be recognised indefinitely.

Of course, there has now been further update accepting the CE mark until 2027.

Why do you keep quoting that article by a broker. It isn’t the Act you refer to. It’s a broker giving their views.
And not seen anything in there that contradicts what Tranona and others said, or my post #93.

 

[dunedin]

Ok but my concern is that the French owner can temp import into UK and use it.
This is bordering on discrimination between owners, and the noted clime down on manufacturer ce acceptance was obviously also due to discrimination.
The import of other items such as cars is different, ( ok I know boats are boats and cars are cars.)..It would be helpful if a know example,and paperwork from the gov.uk of an application refusal subject to..eg...was available.

I don’t think your assumption on the climb down re UKCA being due to “discrimination” is correct.

I believe this was due to complaints by UK manufacturers that the costs of having to comply with UK CA and CE was making UK businesses uneconomic post Brexit (note this is a boating industry comment, not political). UK markets were too small, so to export they need to do CE certification - otherwise can’t sell into huge EU market. So to sell in UK and EU would need to dual certify. Whilst the UKCA rules currently are a “cut and paste” of CE it still needed dual certification costs - and as CE / RCD evolves the differences would emerge.
Plus there was only one UKCA certification body. This all made UK businesses exporting to EU have higher costs than EU based businesses - all to no real advantage, as the rules largely the same.

Hence manufacturers asked for and gained their approval to continue doing CE certification - and the period was extended.

But like it has been for a private individual importing an overseas boat (eg from USA) for decades, an individual importing a boat for their use would need to already be current CE compliant.

 

[westernman]

I don’t think your assumption on the climb down re UKCA being due to “discrimination” is correct.

I believe this was due to complaints by UK manufacturers that the costs of having to comply with UK CA and CE was making UK businesses uneconomic post Brexit (note this is a boating industry comment, not political). UK markets were too small, so to export they need to do CE certification - otherwise can’t sell into huge EU market. So to sell in UK and EU would need to dual certify. Whilst the UKCA rules currently are a “cut and paste” of CE it still needed dual certification costs - and as CE / RCD evolves the differences would emerge.
Plus there was only one UKCA certification body. This all made UK businesses exporting to EU have higher costs than EU based businesses - all to no real advantage, as the rules largely the same.

Hence manufacturers asked for and gained their approval to continue doing CE certification - and the period was extended.

But like it has been for a private individual importing an overseas boat (eg from USA) for decades, an individual importing a boat for their use would need to already be current CE compliant.

I believe in part it was due to the fact there there were hardly any organizations qualified to do UK CA certification.

None of this would have mattered if there had not been a new version of the EU RCD which was made in 2013 and became obligatory in 2017. (I.e. after the B thing).

 

[dunedin]

I believe in part it was due to the fact there there were hardly any organizations qualified to do UK CA certification.

None of this would have mattered if there had not been a new version of the EU RCD which was made in 2013 and became obligatory in 2017. (I.e. after the B thing).

As noted in my post you replied to, for boats there was just one UK CA certifying body

 

[ylop]

Ok but my concern is that the French owner can temp import into UK and use it.
This is bordering on discrimination between owners,

Ok depends what you mean by “French owner” and temp import?

If you mean a French citizen sailing a boat here as a tourist and cruising our waters before returning home, then yes you are right. (The same works in reverse - a Brit can take their boat to Europe as a temporary visitor even if a Frenchman would need to jump through hoops and import it). If you mean a French citizen who actually lives in the U.K. and wants to import a boat - then the legislation doesn’t make a distinction on nationality or citizenship: it uses the slightly odd phrase “a person who established in the United Kingdom”.

The import of other items such as cars is different, ( ok I know boats are boats and cars are cars.).

I’ve never looked at car imports - I thought it was similar: a tourist can bring a car here, but if you want to keep it here “permanently” you need to officially import it and that can mean going through the IVA process?

.It would be helpful if a know example,and paperwork from the gov.uk of an application refusal subject to..eg...was available.

I agree - although there isn’t an application process as such, and so there isn’t a “refusal”. Very few people import old boats at all, even fewer are likely to draw attention to the fact if they have managed sneak under the radar.

 

[ylop]

As noted in my post you replied to, for boats there was just one UK CA certifying body

It’s a similar problem across many CE product categories. Most of them aren’t bought and sold second hand though so boats are bit too special, and government officials sorting the mess out are likely as confused as everyone else. Bear in mind that the RCD isn’t really about safety, its purpose is to harmonise the standards across a market to make it simpler for the Ben/Jen/Bavs etc to sell into 27 countries without having to navigate 27 different technical standards and stop each country inventing its own rule book to protect its own particular boatbuilders. The people with clout and influence at the Whitehall table are not private importers but businesses employing people either manufacturing new boats or selling imported new ones have much stronger arguments than “Jimmy at the sailing club won’t be able to bring in an old boat without putting a less polluting engine in it and paying to get it certified”.

 

[billskip]

Ok depends what you mean by “French owner” and temp import?

If you mean a French citizen sailing a boat here as a tourist and cruising our waters before returning home, then yes you are right. (The same works in reverse - a Brit can take their boat to Europe as a temporary visitor even if a Frenchman would need to jump through hoops and import it). If you mean a French citizen who actually lives in the U.K. and wants to import a boat - then the legislation doesn’t make a distinction on nationality or citizenship: it uses the slightly odd phrase “a person who established in the United Kingdom”.

I’ve never looked at car imports - I thought it was similar: a tourist can bring a car here, but if you want to keep it here “permanently” you need to officially import it and that can mean going through the IVA process?

I agree - although there isn’t an application process as such, and so there isn’t a “refusal”. Very few people import old boats at all, even fewer are likely to draw attention to the fact if they have managed sneak under the radar.

I mean for example a French owner that is resident in France can bring a boat to the UK and it can stay and be used, the same as an English boat can go into EU and stay for 18 months.

As for the cars, I remember the Lada (Fiat 124 lookalike) being band from import due to not meeting the requirements but existing Lada's continued to be accepted.

 

[Tranona]

Ok but my concern is that the French owner can temp import into UK and use it.
This is bordering on discrimination between owners, and the noted clime down on manufacturer ce acceptance was obviously also due to discrimination.
The import of other items such as cars is different, ( ok I know boats are boats and cars are cars.)..It would be helpful if a know example,and paperwork from the gov.uk of an application refusal subject to..eg...was available.

You need to understand that the EU and the UK are now separate customs and regulatory areas. Visitors have always been able to enter the EU or UK under the temporary admission rules. That applied when we were in the EU - visitors from the US , Australia Switzerland and so on could always visit with boats that did not meet our regulations, and avoid paying VAT. However if they wanted to sell min the EU/UK the boat needs certifying and VAT paying.

What Brexit meant was that the EU joined the rest of the world in being outside the UK customs and regulatory areas - and the UK became outside the EU areas. This means that any boats moving from one to the other that do not qualify for TA must be imported. The timing and change of the RCD has no relevance to Brexit. The "climbdown" as I have explained many times is the UK government deciding to keep the RGR (the standard) the same as the RCD and subsequently agreeing to accept the CE marking rather than the UKCA marking. This did not change the need for all imports to meet the RCD/RGR - just removed the need for additionally convert all the RCD documentation to UKCA so saving importers of primarily new boats a lot of work and cost, Because the standard is the same since 2017 that would also apply to used boats with the correct CE mark and documentation. It may also apply to earlier boats from 2013 when the new standard was published as many builders used the new standards, particularly for new designs before they became compulsory. For somebody importing a pre 2017 boat this is what the PCA will determine - it will assess the boat and documentation against the 2017 regulation and determine whether it meets or needs changes.

Again as I have written many times, these transition arrangements are very different from the 1998 ones, in that the UK government did not retain the exemptions for EEA/EU built boats prior to the latest standards. That is why you get the anomaly you (and others) describe. Perfectly legal to use an older boat in the UK, but an identical boat in the EU cannot be used legally by a UK resident in the UK unless it is formally imported, VAT paid and certified like any other import. That is the law.

The reality is, however that even without the barrier of certification it is generally not economically viable to import a used boat from the EU into the UK. Not just because of the 25% VAT, but used boat prices are generally higher in £ sterling terms, and the transaction costs of finding, buying and transporting the boat to the UK just add more cost. The law says that certification must be done by a UK body, but there is only one such body now. That tells you how little activity there is in this type of trade.

 

[ylop]

I mean for example a French owner that is resident in France can bring a boat to the UK and it can stay and be used, the same as an English boat can go into EU and stay for 18 months.

So I’m not sure why you think that is discrimination. That seems a perfectly reasonable reciprocal arrangement to encourage/allow visitors to come by boat…

 

[nevis768]

Why do you keep quoting that article by a broker. It isn’t the Act you refer to. It’s a broker giving their views.
And not seen anything in there that contradicts what Tranona and others said, or my post #93.

They're giving their views on that legislation, which is opposite to your view

 

[Tranona]

They're giving their views on that legislation, which is opposite to your view

No they are not. They are simply stating what the legislation is. They have only added commentary for example about the difference between the categories and the implications when choosing a boat. As a dealer/importer they have also added how and why the boats they deal in fit into the standards. From an operational point of view the changes in the relationship between the RCD/CE and the RCR/UKCA has made their life easier - again just as I and others have observed.

This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread which is about importing boats that were not built to the current RCD standard (Wyatt does not even mention it) which if imported into the UK require a PCA against the current standard.

 

[gaylord694]

To me to you

 

[nevis768]

No they are not. They are simply stating what the legislation is. They have only added commentary for example about the difference between the categories and the implications when choosing a boat. As a dealer/importer they have also added how and why the boats they deal in fit into the standards. From an operational point of view the changes in the relationship between the RCD/CE and the RCR/UKCA has made their life easier - again just as I and others have observed.

This has nothing to do with the subject of this thread which is about importing boats that were not built to the current RCD standard (Wyatt does not even mention it) which if imported into the UK require a PCA against the current standard.

Here's a quote from Wyatt which appears to show you're talking more nonsense,

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article from where I have quoted the above paragraph showing you are talking absolute cobblers, and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[ylop]

Here's a quote from Wyatt which appears to show you're talking more nonsense,

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article from where I have quoted the above paragraph showing you are talking absolute cobblers, and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

As one who keeps banging on about quoting from “the act” you would think it would be time to go back to the regulations and look for where those exemptions are stated, because then you’d win your battle with Tranona convincingly…

You will find the exclusions in s4(1). The types of vessel listed in the second sentence are indeed exempt, as are diy build projects. But no mention of the pre1998 boats in circulation in the EU/EEA. That WAS the case before B-day because we were all one market, but is no longer the case.

The definitions of market were changed by this statutory instrument: The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 so the exemption for boats already in circulation in the EU market disappeared. (You don’t need to read that SI if you are reading the latest version of the Regs - because legislation.gov makes the updates for you).

 

[Tranona]

Here's a quote from Wyatt which appears to show you're talking more nonsense,

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article from where I have quoted the above paragraph showing you are talking absolute cobblers, and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

Well, I missed that - and it is wrong in respect of pre 1998 boats. That exemption was removed on the 1/1/2021 Here are the current regulations www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain including a list of exemptions in section 3. All other imports of non exempt boats must comply with the 2017 regulations. It states that quite clearly.

This link has been posted more than once in this thread and I would have thought given your claim that you only believe official legislation you would recognise this rather than an unsupported and inaccurate statement from a dealer.

So I am afraid it is Wyatt like you that is talking nonsense

 

[doug748]

.......The import of other items such as cars is different, ( ok I know boats are boats and cars are cars.)..It would be helpful if a know example ,and paperwork from the gov.uk of an application refusal subject to..eg...was available.

The situation with Motorcycles, Cars and Aeroplanes is even more stark by comparison. A 30 year old example of those will most often attract only 5% VAT on import and no taxes:

Importing Classic Cars and Aircraft – 5% VAT and no Import Duty

I think we all agree that the situation is silly, the interpretations vague and the matter untested.
Most of us probably also feel it's not a measured policy stance or a conspiracy but a good old time cock up

.

 

[billskip]

the situation is silly, the interpretations vague and the matter untested.

Couldn't agree more...the matter untested
Is most important, because advise given here is not only a personal interpretation but also statements saying " you will have to" which doesn't seem to be the case, more like "you may have to" so be aware.
Even all I have read with links and gov.uk
it always seems to say "may"

 

[westernman]

The situation with Motorcycles, Cars and Aeroplanes is even more stark by comparison. A 30 year old example of those will most often attract only 5% VAT on import and no taxes:

Importing Classic Cars and Aircraft – 5% VAT and no Import Duty

I think we all agree that the situation is silly, the interpretations vague and the matter untested.
Most of us probably also feel it's not a measured policy stance or a conspiracy but a good old time cock up

.

The situation is silly.
However, the interpretation is simply and clear if you are a lawyer and used to reading this kind of stuff.

Very few people care. Very few boats of over 10 years old are imported into the UK.
Does HMRC care (once the VAT has been paid)? No idea. But the rules are clear to people used to dealing with this kind of stuff.

The only difficulty for certification is that an assessment has to be carried out (which has a cost, but presumably for a standard AWB this is not too high). The bummer is that potentially the engine(s) will need to be swapped out. This is also easy to do for a 20 year boat. New engines are readily available which will fit. It is just a question of paying. But if you are OK with paying VAT, paying another 3K or so for a PCA an 15K for an engine swap and an update of some minor stuff for UK RCR/EU RCD II is no problem for a boat which is interesting enough.

Note that a "new" engine may be just a later version of the engine you already have. It could be the same but with a slightly different ECU map.

For old boats, there is potentially the "historic" let out. I have yet to see the formal definition of historic which applies for this.

I sold my boat (built in Canada, but UK/EU VAT paid on arrival in Cowes, UK) a while ago in Spain to a French commercial operation. They re-registered it with French flag and commercial certification for 16 passengers. The original RCD (from 1998) was A/8. The RCD certificate was a big deal for the new owners. I did not have it, but they managed to get something good enough from the original certification authority from 1998 to satisfy the french authorities. No re-certification was required, although of course a survey was required for their insurers.

My boat is modeled on the UK Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. It is now a French historic ship. It is berthed in front of the town hall of Marseille in the centre of the Old Port.

Again, certification for an old boat to the current standards is generally do-able. It just has a cost which completely wipes out the price differential of buying a used boat in the EU. There are plenty of used boats in the UK.

For something really special the cost of certification and a new engine is not going to be a killer.

 

[Pye_End]

Here's a quote from Wyatt which appears to show you're talking more nonsense,

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article from where I have quoted the above paragraph showing you are talking absolute cobblers, and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

RYA does not support this assertion. Quite the opposite.

If you are a member look up 'Buying a boat Abroad', page 3, footnote 1. It is copyright else I would quote it.