Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[obmij]

You might think that but there is a long history on this subject dating from the 1998 legislation that made certification compulsory. It clearly was the intention to apply to private imports of older boats and effectively stopped such activity dead. There have been several articles in the yachting press over the years by people explaining how they had complied with the requirements when importing boats. If anything it was potentially easier to ignore pre Brexit when there were virtually no border checks, Now it is a legal requirement to report all entries by pleasure craft and obtain clearance and if you read the law on certification it is the private importer's responsibility to comply before using the boat in the UK. Penalties for non compliance range from confiscation to imprisonment. All government guidance is clear about this.

Not scaremongering - and I am sure there are some people who might risk sneaking in and merging into the scenery as there are no routine checks on boats actually in the UK. However the secondary consideration is what happens when the importer tries to sell? No reputable broker would touch a boat if there is evidence it is in the country illegally. Nor would any knowledgeable buyer consider such the purchase of a boat with an incomplete history.

It has been suggested several times in this thread that in practice this may be a non issue as imports have now become economically unviable once the 25% VAT is applied to the value of the boat.

The importer, when selling the vessel would presumably have evidence of VAT paid on arrival and the same documentation as every other boat of similar age in the marina.

I've read the articles by TC and the hoops he had to jump through when importing a boat from the US. That is a different kettle of fish though and the kind of situation that the quoted legislation was written for..

 

[westernman]

Fair enough, but that is very " middle of the road" would be better sensibly defined in layman's terms imho.(the legislation I mean not your post)
As much as manufacturers are being helped by deferring , I woud consider other business such as UK yacht brokers should be helped as in not restricting their ability to market second hand boats in the UK for sale in the EU provided that product has been previously marketed in the UK
..(if they are..) but it seems that Val Wyat
gives the impression older CE boats do not require updating to latest CE requirements.

If they are already legally in the UK then this is perfectly correct.

This was always the case with boats. Once legally placed onto the market and/or used in the UK (with the then current CE requirements e.g. RCD 1994 or if older than 1998 then nothing at all), it was OK going forward and did not and does not require updating to the current requirements and do not need to be UKCA marked (or even CE marked if older than 1998).

The current legislation says that for imports anything CE marked to the current RCD is ok and this status (i.e. not requiring UKCA is likely to continue for quite some time).

Most boats built after 2013 conform to the current RCD 2013. All boats legally sold after 2017 in the UK and EU conform to RCD 2013. Most boats built before 2013 will not conform. Mostly due to the updated emissions requirements (noise requirements were updated as well).

An import has to be assessed (PCA - post construction assessment) as to whether it confirms to RCD 2013. If it was CE marked and built after 2017, then this is just a rubber stamp. As it is for most imports.
[ Although in theory the engine could be tested to ensure that is it not completely knackered and still meets the updated emissions targets ].

Unfortunately if the boat was built before 2013 (and after 1950), it needs to be checked more thoroughly and is unlikely to fully conform. The most likely big issue is with the engine emission certification. If the engine is a modern design, it is possible that it would conform and then an emissions test should be all that is needed. An older engine may need replacing.

There is a let out for historic boats. This seems to be pre 1950s boats or their replicas.

Is this reasonable? May be not. But this is the way it is, and is the way it is for most stuff which is being imported. Most stuff has to conform to current standards. Not to the standards as they were when the products were made.

It is unfortunate that the wording subjects a private importer to all the same requirements as a professional. It is even more unfortunate, that a boat which was once in the UK in say 2000, exported to France, and has changed hands and the new UK owner wants to bring the boat back he has kept in the med for the last 15 years needs to pay VAT on import and re-certify the boat. If it had stayed in the UK the whole time no VAT would need to be paid and not certification would need to be done.

I guess that it was too complicated to work out the wording to enable private people to do this without letting professionals getting away with murder importing older substandard stuff.

It seems that with RGR, you can bypass all this and import any old crap with no testing at all (subject to you returning your place of residence from the EU to the UK and all the old crap has been yours for at least the last 6 months).

 

[nevis768]

If they are already legally in the UK then this is perfectly correct.

This was always the case with boats. Once legally placed onto the market and/or used in the UK (with the then current CE requirements e.g. RCD 1994 or if older than 1998 then nothing at all), it was OK going forward and did not and does not require updating to the current requirements and do not need to be UKCA marked (or even CE marked if older than 1998).

The current legislation says that for imports anything CE marked to the current RCD is ok and this status (i.e. not requiring UKCA is likely to continue for quite some time).

Most boats built after 2013 conform to the current RCD 2013. All boats legally sold after 2017 in the UK and EU conform to RCD 2013. Most boats built before 2013 will not conform. Mostly due to the updated emissions requirements (noise requirements were updated as well).

An import has to be assessed (PCA - post construction assessment) as to whether it confirms to RCD 2013. If it was CE marked and built after 2017, then this is just a rubber stamp. As it is for most imports.
[ Although in theory the engine could be tested to ensure that is it not completely knackered and still meets the updated emissions targets ].

Unfortunately if the boat was built before 2013 (and after 1950), it needs to be checked more thoroughly and is unlikely to fully conform. The most likely big issue is with the engine emission certification. If the engine is a modern design, it is possible that it would conform and then an emissions test should be all that is needed. An older engine may need replacing.

There is a let out for historic boats. This seems to be pre 1950s boats or their replicas.

Is this reasonable? May be not. But this is the way it is, and is the way it is for most stuff which is being imported. Most stuff has to conform to current standards. Not to the standards as they were when the products were made.

It is unfortunate that the wording subjects a private importer to all the same requirements as a professional. It is even more unfortunate, that a boat which was once in the UK in say 2000, exported to France, and has changed hands and the new UK owner wants to bring the boat back he has kept in the med for the last 15 years needs to pay VAT on import and re-certify the boat. If it had stayed in the UK the whole time no VAT would need to be paid and not certification would need to be done.

I guess that it was too complicated to work out the wording to enable private people to do this without letting professionals getting away with murder importing older substandard stuff.

It seems that with RGR, you can bypass all this and import any old crap with no testing at all (subject to you returning your place of residence from the EU to the UK and all the old crap has been yours for at least the last 6 months).

Think you are completely wrong on many points here, and note it is all opinion.

Here is the actual legislation. A Private Importer is only subject to any requirements if he puts the boat into service, here's the definitions from the Act
“private importer” means a person established within the EU who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a third country into the EU with the intention of putting it into service for that person’s own use;
“product” means a product to which these Regulations apply, in accordance with regulation 3;
“propulsion engine” means any spark or compression ignition internal combustion engine used directly or indirectly for propulsion purposes;
“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

So nothing here applies to private buyers, and of course, we aren't in the EU market now.

Apart from that, the Statutory instrument now states that a CE mark is acceptable instead UKCA marking. The CE mark came in 1985 on some boats.

Your comment that Val Wyatt gives the impression that older boats with CE mark don't require UKCA marks is not correct, Val Wyat doesnt give the impression, they are categorically saying that, which is contrary to your opinion.
This is because of this paragraph in the 2017 Statutory Guidance which refers to a Private Importer

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

So in effect for a private importer to fall under this Act, they would have to import a product (yacht int his case)which has not previously been placed on the UK market. Note the word 'product', they are not saying that person's second hand yacht. The rest of the Legislation follows on here, so if you don't contravene the first para, you don't contravene any of it.
Because the definition of the offence wouldn't be complete. That's how the law works.
It is quite clear that Private Importer is a term inserted in the Act to catch somebody importing on a scale, then claiming to be a private importer, not a punter buying a second hand yacht in France.

Hence the prosecuting authority, Trading Standards do not prosecute private buyers.
We know that because there have never been any cases. I rang them and they did not have a clue what I was talking about.

 

[billskip]

Your comment that Val Wyatt gives the impression that older boats with CE mark don't require UKCA marks is not correct,

That was me not westernman

 

[benjenbav]

Think you are completely wrong on many points here, and note it is all opinion.

Here is the actual legislation. A Private Importer is only subject to any requirements if he puts the boat into service, here's the definitions from the Act
“private importer” means a person established within the EU who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a third country into the EU with the intention of putting it into service for that person’s own use;
“product” means a product to which these Regulations apply, in accordance with regulation 3;
“propulsion engine” means any spark or compression ignition internal combustion engine used directly or indirectly for propulsion purposes;
“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

So nothing here applies to private buyers, and of course, we aren't in the EU market now.

Apart from that, the Statutory instrument now states that a CE mark is acceptable instead UKCA marking. The CE mark came in 1985 on some boats.

Your comment that Val Wyatt gives the impression that older boats with CE mark don't require UKCA marks is not correct, Val Wyat doesnt give the impression, they are categorically saying that, which is contrary to your opinion.
This is because of this paragraph in the 2017 Statutory Guidance which refers to a Private Importer

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

So in effect for a private importer to fall under this Act, they would have to import a product (yacht int his case)which has not previously been placed on the UK market. Note the word 'product', they are not saying that person's second hand yacht. The rest of the Legislation follows on here, so if you don't contravene the first para, you don't contravene any of it.
Because the definition of the offence wouldn't be complete. That's how the law works.
It is quite clear that Private Importer is a term inserted in the Act to catch somebody importing on a scale, then claiming to be a private importer, not a punter buying a second hand yacht in France.

Hence the prosecuting authority, Trading Standards do not prosecute private buyers.
We know that because there have never been any cases. I rang them and they did not have a clue what I was talking about.

That’s actually an out-of-date definition of ‘private importer’.

Current text is:

F18“private importer” means a person who—

(a)
is established in the United Kingdom; and
(b)
imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a country outside of the United Kingdom into the United Kingdom with the intention of putting it into service for the person's own use;”

Footnote F18 reads:

F18Words in reg. 2(1) substituted (E.W.S.) (31.12.2020) by The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (S.I. 2019/696), reg. 1, Sch. 28 para. 2(2)(s) (with Sch. 28 para. 41) (as amended by S.I. 2020/676, regs. 1(1), 2); 2020 c. 1, Sch. 5 para. 1(1)

 

[st599]

Apart from that, the Statutory instrument now states that a CE mark is acceptable instead UKCA marking. The CE mark came in 1985 on some boats.

No it doesn't. It says a CE mark issued in accordance with the Directive and defines the Directive as the RCD 2013.

 

[Tranona]

The importer, when selling the vessel would presumably have evidence of VAT paid on arrival and the same documentation as every other boat of similar age in the marina.

I've read the articles by TC and the hoops he had to jump through when importing a boat from the US. That is a different kettle of fish though and the kind of situation that the quoted legislation was written for..

What has changed since Brexit is that any boats from outside the UK need to go through the same process including from the EU even if they have a CE mark prior to the latest RCD/RCR which became law in 2017. Boats built earlier from 2013 when the latest RCD was published may well comply at least in part. Boats built prior to that and certified under the first version of the RCD will not.

That is how the law is written. What is unclear is whether that is actually what is being applied in practice.

 

[riverliver]

Great Posts to keep us happy over the winter lay up. Got through many a box of popcorn watching from the sidelines! I thought it interesting that it took until post 181 before anyone mentioned the only really relevant issue: Is it insurable? If not everything else is moot? I assume the OP if ever inclined to dip his toe in the water will get specific confirmation of insurability before doing anything.

PS FWW HNK have similar wording to that quoted in 183. I would be surprised if all the rest dont follow the herd.

 

[doug748]

Think you are completely wrong on many points here, and note it is all opinion.

Here is the actual legislation. A Private Importer is only subject to any requirements if he puts the boat into service, here's the definitions from the Act
“private importer” means a person established within the EU who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a third country into the EU with the intention of putting it into service for that person’s own use;
“product” means a product to which these Regulations apply, in accordance with regulation 3;
“propulsion engine” means any spark or compression ignition internal combustion engine used directly or indirectly for propulsion purposes;
“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the EU market by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

So nothing here applies to private buyers, and of course, we aren't in the EU market now.

Apart from that, the Statutory instrument now states that a CE mark is acceptable instead UKCA marking. The CE mark came in 1985 on some boats.

Your comment that Val Wyatt gives the impression that older boats with CE mark don't require UKCA marks is not correct, Val Wyat doesnt give the impression, they are categorically saying that, which is contrary to your opinion.
This is because of this paragraph in the 2017 Statutory Guidance which refers to a Private Importer

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

So in effect for a private importer to fall under this Act, they would have to import a product (yacht int his case)which has not previously been placed on the UK market. Note the word 'product', they are not saying that person's second hand yacht. The rest of the Legislation follows on here, so if you don't contravene the first para, you don't contravene any of it.
Because the definition of the offence wouldn't be complete. That's how the law works.
It is quite clear that Private Importer is a term inserted in the Act to catch somebody importing on a scale, then claiming to be a private importer, not a punter buying a second hand yacht in France.

Hence the prosecuting authority, Trading Standards do not prosecute private buyers.
We know that because there have never been any cases. I rang them and they did not have a clue what I was talking about.

Well, I had my doubts nevis. However I have contacted the relevant authorities with a genuine question about a boat I was considering a little time ago.

I have had a reply that categorically states that a used boat of the type we are considering, largely unmodified, would not be subject to any further certification process on import: "as it predates June 1998".

So there we have it.

.

 

[Tranona]

Well, I had my doubts nevis. However I have contacted the relevant authorities with a genuine question about a boat I was considering a little time ago.

I have had a reply that categorically states that a used boat of the type we are considering, largely unmodified, would not be subject to any further certification process on import: "as it predates June 1998".

So there we have it.

.

That is very interesting. However like a lot of the claims made here on this subject it lacks detail. It would be helpful if you could say what type of boat, where and when it was built and where it was coming from. The date the advice was given and by whom (relevant authority?) would of course help establish the accuracy of the advice, as would be some indication of the government source document that underpins it.

As has been posted several times the post Brexit legislation does not allow for this exemption, but that does not of course mean that individual officers are not continuing to quote the earlier (EU) legislation. However based on what you say this does not seem to be the case as the EU legislation was much more than what you have quoted. Specifically the exemption applied to 2 categories of boats. First, all boats in the EU on the qualifying date irrespective of where they were built, second all boats originally built in the EU/EEA prior to that date irrespective of where they were located. There was no mention of "unmodified" - the concept of "modification" in relation to recertification was not introduced until the 2013 RCD (which is now the current UK standard).

Obviously old EU legislation and regulations no longer apply in the UK unless they were brought into law on or after 1/1/2021 and those that were would have been changed to reflect the UK rather than EU

So there we have it - another piece of questionable hearsay

 

[dunedin]

Well, I had my doubts nevis. However I have contacted the relevant authorities with a genuine question about a boat I was considering a little time ago.

I have had a reply that categorically states that a used boat of the type we are considering, largely unmodified, would not be subject to any further certification process on import: "as it predates June 1998".

So there we have it.

.

Sounds interesting - please post the question and reply to aid forum members.

 

[doug748]

Sounds interesting - please post the question and reply to aid forum members.

I asked advice about buying and importing a specific design, located in Greece, manufactured in the UK in 1979 to the standards of that time.
I pointed out that there are examples of the design in regular use in the UK and that compliance to present standards would be difficult or impossible.

The answer was friendly, brief and to the point - it would be exempt as quoted above.

It does corroborate the oft quoted Val Wyatt advice, as it now seems little doubt that they are commenting from direct experience of importing and dealing with the regulators:

"What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas."

My interest in all this is because there are a couple of designs that I would consider which are not readily available in the UK and I have been keeping a look out for the past year. I will not be giving any direct quotes or names and addresses, that would be unfair and certainly bad manners. However if anyone is seriously considering an import I can put them on the right track.

No doubt the tap room barristers will still huff and puff but I have categorical advice and only have to worry about finding 20% VAT should the right boat appear.

.

 

[Birdseye]

Well, I had my doubts nevis. However I have contacted the relevant authorities with a genuine question about a boat I was considering a little time ago.

I have had a reply that categorically states that a used boat of the type we are considering, largely unmodified, would not be subject to any further certification process on import: "as it predates June 1998".

So there we have it.

.

As with similar sorts of advice from HMRC, you cannot rely on a letter or phone call or face to face advice. The person making the decision when the question arrises might take a different view and then the application of the law in your particular case will depend on what a court decides.

Hardly surprising since civil servants are just as fallible as the rest of us.

 

[westernman]

As with similar sorts of advice from HMRC, you cannot rely on a letter or phone call or face to face advice. The person making the decision when the question arrises might take a different view and then the application of the law in your particular case will depend on what a court decides.

Hardly surprising since civil servants are just as fallible as the rest of us.

And Nevis mis-interpretation would have been a perfectly reasonable way to write the law. But it was not. But is it consistently interpreted as we would think reasonable??

 

[doug748]

As with similar sorts of advice from HMRC, you cannot rely on a letter or phone call or face to face advice. The person making the decision when the question arrises might take a different view and then the application of the law in your particular case will depend on what a court decides.

Hardly surprising since civil servants are just as fallible as the rest of us.

This is useful:

Importing a boat from Europe, Trading Standards Response

.

 

[Tranona]

It does corroborate the oft quoted Val Wyatt advice, as it now seems little doubt that they are commenting from direct experience of importing and dealing with the regulators:

"What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas."



.

Whatever you say, that is not what the law says. While some of the exemptions you list do indeed appear in Section 3 of the regulations (and always have) the words about pre 1998 craft built in the EEA/EU DO NOT. As I have tried to explain this exemption is EU law which ceased to be in UK law on 1/1/2021.

Once again read Section 3 of the regulations www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain

Just because one dealer makes the same mistake does not change anything.

If you really want to act upon this "advice", ask the person giving it to provide you with a copy of the regulation that supports the advice.