Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[Tranona]

UK brokers also sell many boats based in Europe and elsewhere. Although many are advertised a VAT not paid, I've yet to see any warning about needing UK or EU compliance.

No reason why they should. While VAT/non VAT is a relatively common distinction, certification on used boats is very niche and only an issue for those intending to import from outside the EU/UK Even before Brexit such activity was marginal because the economics were generally against it. There were certain little gaps that opened up like importing used sportsboats such as Regal and Bayliner from the US into Europe. this arose because the builders made them to CE spec and sold through dealers at high prices. A favourable exchange rate made buying late model used boats in the US, doing the minor mods to convert from US to RCD spec and shipping to Europe a viable operation. Perfectly legal but after a few years changes in exchange rates and generally rising prices killed the trade.

For buyers buying in the EU or UK it is a non issue, although it may become important if the history of the boat shows it originally came in from outside.

 

[billskip]

Definitely individual product rather than "type". Each individual product has to have its own CE/UKCA mark and in the specific case of boats a supporting Certificate of Conformity for the boat and the engine. That comes in the owners handbook pack that accompanies the boat from the builder and should be kept with the boat throughout its life. The boat must also have a plate mounted in a defined position, usually the cockpit containing information on its category and permitted payloads.

I understand what you say...but...I'm referring to the actual word definition in this instance..
The product ...ie HR 45 centre cockpit
or
The specific individual product ...ie HR 45 centre cockpit the one that is being imported.
For another example..
You are guaranteed the full payment of the product cost if it is faulty....
As opposed to you are guaranteed the full payment of the individual product cost.if it is faulty.
As far as I can read it does not define " product" as general or individual, and I don't think it can be assumed.

 

[billskip]

certification on used boats is very niche and only an issue for those intending to import from outside the EU

EU certification CE mark started around
1993, so a 2001 boat would not need re certification then if imported from France
In 2025.?

 

[ylop]

I understand what you say...but...I'm referring to the actual word definition in this instance..
The product ...ie HR 45 centre cockpit
or
The specific individual product ...ie HR 45 centre cockpit the one that is being imported.
For another example..
You are guaranteed the full payment of the product cost if it is faulty....
As opposed to you are guaranteed the full payment of the individual product cost.if it is faulty.
As far as I can read it does not define " product" as general or individual, and I don't think it can be assumed.

Bill - I do see how someone could attempt to read regulation 36 in that way, however subclause (4) requires the private importer to ensure that the name and postal address of the body doing the post conformity assessment is marked on the product. Clearly it would be impossible for the importer to have that marked on the product unless "the product" means the particular hull he is responsible for.

Elsewhere in the regulations it becomes fairly apparent that product = a single example of the design, but the regulations use "design type" to refer to all the vessels of the same design.

EU certification CE mark started around
1993, so a 2001 boat would not need re certification then if imported from France
In 2025.?

Originally drafted in 1994 and became required from 1998. That was the 1994 version of the directive - lets call it RCD1. An updated directive was produced in 2013 and became required in 2017. Lets call that RCD2. The UK Regs require any boat being imported into our Market to be certified to RCD2. A 2001 boat would be certified to RCD1 so would not comply. Pre-brexit that was fine because "the Market" was the EU and so there was free movement of second hand boats within the market. Now "the Market" is Great Britain so if the boat is not in GB it is an import.

 

[Tranona]

EU certification CE mark started around
1993, so a 2001 boat would not need re certification then if imported from France
In 2025.?

Yes it did - part of the construction of the single EU market and builders were given 5 years to bring products into line and governments to establish local law and infrastructure to make it work. A feature of the Directive was that the standard was not retrospective to specifically allow for all boats in the EU on 31/12/1997 to be exempt from it - that is they have what is commonly called "grandfather rights". This exemption was applied also to any boats that had been built in the EEA/EU pre 1998 wherever they were located. The 2021 UK legislation follows the EU Directive wording with the exception of the exemptions so any import even for boats built in the UK need certification to the 2017 standard.

What you may be missing (as is Nevis) is that it is not CE marking per se that is important but the standard to which the boat was built. So a 2001 boat would have been built to the 1993 standard and would require some work to meet the 2013 RCD. That is what the PCA does - assess the boat against the current RCD/RGR and determine what needs doing to gain certification. As has been mentioned several times the biggest item is likely to be the engine as an original engine would not meet the current standard. Other issue might be electrical and gas installations, stability requirements that might change its category, structural standards such as keel structures as example of those I think changed in 2013 - no doubt there are more as I have not done a complete comparison.

Yes, you are right a 2001 boat bought from France to UK in 2015 (or right up to 31/12/2020) would not have required re-certification simply because it was not an import, just a movement from one member state of the Single Market to another. It is that freedom of circulation of EU goods that was lost in Brexit

Edit Correction to the last bit. I misread that as 2015 rather than 2025. Anything imported after 1/1/2021 needs certification to meet 2017 regulations.

 

[Tranona]

We crossed - your succinct reply vs my more wordy one saying the same things.

 

[nevis768]

I have considered whether I am completely wrong, and by having referred to Legislation.gov.uk rather than a yacht broker's site I am satisfied that I am not. Do I think they are a troll? Not at all - they have provided some general information which is by and large correct, certainly not intentionally misleading and they are not arguing themselves round in circles. However their article does not cover s36 (Private Import) - why would it, if they are a UK based broker they are selling boats which have already been imported, nor does it get into the detail of pre-2013/2017 boats imported from EU to GB. Why would it? Its such a niche area, its confusing, and probably none of their customers care.

No only those who insist on people citing legislation but when you do they refuse to explain whats wrong with it!

I have explained in detail what's wrong with what you say, but whatever anybody says you ignore unless it agrees with the nonsense you post. This link goes through the legislation, tell us what's wrong with it instead of just saying it's wrong.

Announcement by the UK government on 1 August 2023​

On 1st August 2023, the Department for Business and Trade (DBT) announced its intention to recognise the CE mark indefinitely, in what the BBC called a “post-Brexit climbdown”.

As a result of this latest decision, British companies now have the option to either adopt the new UKCA symbol or keep the CE mark by seeking certification for their products from an accredited European body. In a statement, Business Minister Kevin Hollinrake explained the government had “listened to industry”, and the move will allow firms to “focus their time and money on creating jobs and growing the economy”.

The decision to recognise the CE mark indefinitely in the UK will simplify matters considerably, particularly for the boating industry. Bearing in mind that RCR (UK regulations) and RCD (EU regulations) were already mirroring each other, the reduction of an additional certification process is certainly welcome.

This latest change will streamline the sale of CE certified boats in the UK, allowing businesses like ours to focus more on quality, innovation and customer service. While we are ever adaptable to changes in regulations, this move aligns with the practical needs of the market. It’s a common-sense approach that is likely to be well-received across the sector.

The change in regulations was also welcomed by the Federation of Small Businesses who said the continued recognition of CE marked products would enable their members to concentrate on expanding their business both at home and internationally.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[billskip]

What you may be missing (as is Nevis) is that it is not CE marking per se that is important but the standard to which the boat was built.

No, I'm definitely not missing that, that's what the legislation all about, so we don't end up importing more old stinky engines and rubbish than we already have.

This discussion afaic is about the clear understanding of the regulations rather than a personal interpretation.

It would seem to have different personal interpretation, I will for my own bone chewing, try and find another source of confirmation.
I can't believe that a private buyer has not gone through the practical experience and can share their experience.

I find it hard to ballance a regulation on the basis of residency, that said I believe it to be the case in the EU.

 

[nevis768]

No, I'm definitely not missing that, that's what the legislation all about, so we don't end up importing more old stinky engines and rubbish than we already have.

This discussion afaic is about the clear understanding of the regulations rather than a personal interpretation.

It would seem to have different personal interpretation, I will for my own bone chewing, try and find another source of confirmation.
I can't believe that a private buyer has not gone through the practical experience and can share their experience.

I find it hard to ballance a regulation on the basis of residency, that said I believe it to be the case in the EU.

Think whoever is correct, there is no enforcement by Trading Standards, possibly because there is nothing to enforce if I am right. (They are the enforcement authority under the Act). I will attempt to pop into their office when I am near one, because it's not easy to get them on the phone.

Update
I have managed get through on the phone now, and they do not have a clue about this. Somebody is going to look into it and ring me back in the next day or two. Will update.

 

[billskip]

I have managed get through on the phone now, and they do not have a clue about this. Somebody is going to look into it and ring me back in the next day or two. Will update.

Don't hold your breath....
You can't use a phone call, unless you prove it somehow, like your inside leg measurement, tell them you need it in braille......

 

[nevis768]

Don't hold your breath....
You can't use a phone call, unless you prove it somehow, like your inside leg measurement, tell them you need it in braille......

I'll ask for something in writing

 

[ylop]

This link goes through the legislation, tell us what's wrong with it instead of just saying it's wrong.

Announcement by the UK government on 1 August 2023​

On 1st August 2023, the Department for Business and Trade (DBT) announced its intention to recognise the CE mark indefinitely, in what the BBC called a “post-Brexit climbdown”...

there's nothing wrong with it - it just doesn't discuss the actual topic at hand:
- private importation
- vessels which do not have CE marks but were in free circulation in the EU prior to 1998
- vessels which do have a CE mark issued under the previous (1994) version of the Directive.

 

[nevis768]

there's nothing wrong with it - it just doesn't discuss the actual topic at hand:
- private importation
- vessels which do not have CE marks but were in free circulation in the EU prior to 1998
- vessels which do have a CE mark issued under the previous (1994) version of the Directive.

I am glad you agree with me private importation is not covered

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[ylop]

It would seem to have different personal interpretation, I will for my own bone chewing, try and find another source of confirmation.

RYA?

I can't believe that a private buyer has not gone through the practical experience and can share their experience.

They might - but as Tranona said way back in this thread - the VAT and potential compliance issues make EU imports a very narrow market now

I find it hard to ballance a regulation on the basis of residency, that said I believe it to be the case in the EU.

I'm not sure what that means. All regulations are based on geographic jurisdictions. There are medical devices on the US market not available in the UK, not because they are fundamentally flawed but because the market isn't big enough to jump through our hoops. Similarly, there are European and British medical products not on the US market because the barrier to entry from across the pond is too high (or at least too high as a starting point). Globally across all sorts of products people are trying to harmonise standards to make it easier but there are a lot of vested interests to keep happy to achieve that.

Here's an example - blood glucose meters (and consequently insulin pumps) in the USA use a different set of units from UK ones. A US configured product would not be suitable for the UK market because it would present numbers to a patient that could mislead them and kill them (the opposite is also true, perhaps even more likely). Quite logically we want some regulation to control that risk. There should also be regulations that stop me from just making some random sensor with no validation etc. Now, when the US diabetic comes to the UK on holiday - should they be entitled to bring their own medical equipment with them? of course, even though its not compliant to UK product standards. That regulation is based on residence. The situation with boats is actually much the same - a visitor can bring their boat for their own use, but if they are a resident they need to conform to our rules. That might not have been what people meant by taking back control!

 

[ylop]

I am glad you agree with me private importation is not covered

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

No now you are definitely trolling. I think it was clear that I meant Private Importation is not discussed in the Wyatt article not that it is outside the scope of the regulations. It clearly IS in the regs (s36).

 

[dunedin]

there's nothing wrong with it - it just doesn't discuss the actual topic at hand:
- private importation
- vessels which do not have CE marks but were in free circulation in the EU prior to 1998
- vessels which do have a CE mark issued under the previous (1994) version of the Directive.

That’s a very neat summary of the key points of contention. Wish our friend Nevis could be so concise.
Perhaps he could contact his yacht broker who he keeps posting and ask for his views on these points, which were not covered in the article. Or better the RYA or indeed British Marine, who are closer to the detail and have been closely involved in the original scheme 30 years ago and all the aspects since.

 

[billskip]

That’s a very neat summary of the key points of contention. Wish our friend Nevis could be so concise.
Perhaps he could contact his yacht broker who he keeps posting and ask for his views on these points, which were not covered in the article. Or better the RYA or indeed British Marine, who are closer to the detail and have been closely involved in the original scheme 30 years ago and all the aspects since.

Most if not all posters in this debate are possibly never going to import a boat anyway, this is about advice given on the understanding/belief of individual interpretation.
It's a sad day if people don't have the freedom to question a doubt/belief, me, I'm the first to say ok I got it wrong, but only when I understand why.

 

[st599]

EU certification CE mark started around
1993, so a 2001 boat would not need re certification then if imported from France
In 2025.?

The UK Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, state that a CE mark has to be in accordance with the most recent RCD (2013)

 

[westernman]

The UK Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, state that a CE mark has to be in accordance with the most recent RCD (2013)

It is worse than that.
An imported boat has to comply to the most recent regulations. Not just have a certificate to say it once complied to the most recent regulations.

If the engine has been poorly maintained or done a huge number of hours, it might be tested and found to now be non-compliant.
I doubt that any authority is actually going to do that, but that is the theory.

In the same way in Germany you have to take your car to a Abgasuntersuchung (AU) every year or every two years to check that it still conforms to emissions requirements.

 

[Tranona]

Most if not all posters in this debate are possibly never going to import a boat anyway, this is about advice given on the understanding/belief of individual interpretation.
It's a sad day if people don't have the freedom to question a doubt/belief, me, I'm the first to say ok I got it wrong, but only when I understand why.

Not sure there is anything about the legislation, nor the regulations that follow which requires interpretation as it is very clear. Where there is potential uncertainty it is applying the standards. Almost by definition standards set base rules that means they can be met in different ways as they are not generally prescriptive. Two good examples come up here regularly. First the requirement that seacocks should have a minimum service life of 5 years. It does not say what materials must be used, nor does it define when or what would be considered end of service life. There are at least 4 different materials that could be used to make seacocks which have different properties which affect their corrosion resistance, but all of them could meet that requirement in "normal" use. Second one is the new requirement to ground shorepower systems to water, something that had not been common practice. There are different ways of doing this such as using a bonding circuit or having a dedicated grounding point. Either meet the requirement and the different approaches can be seen on different boats.

With new boats these sorts of things are sorted out by the designer, builder and certifying body before the boat is signed off for building. In a Post Construction Assessment it is between the importer (and probably his surveyor) and the certifying body to resolve any issues. 20 odd years ago one of the the biggest problems were around measuring stability to meet the thresholds for higher categories, particularly B to A. You can see the impact on design of boats in the 9-11m range where high freeboard, bulbous coachroofs and bulbed keels became the norm to meet the more stringent AVS and downflooding angle requirements. This also impacted on older designs where stability was often poor and would not meet RCD requirements, or where the design stability data was not available and stability tests (as used for the higher standards of MCA coding) were required. I had some involvement in this at the time as one of my students did his project on helping a builder prepare the documentation to get CAT A for a boat that in its original design would not have met the stability requirements despite being a hugely successful ocean cruiser. Modifications to the original design were required to just get over the threshold.

Another common problem is a lack of information about the boat and its history. You can see it here when people pose questions such as "I am thinking of buying a boat which....... how do I stand on.." where there are more questions than answers. The phased introduction of the latest RCD is a typical example where the detail of the factory build might be needed to determine if it met "RCD2" in part or in whole. The Certificate of Conformity would tell you which it was certified to, but the actual boat may be certified to the earlier standard and have elements that meet the later one. Engines would be a good example as the current EU standards came in long before the latest RCD.