Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[Tranona]

Couldn't agree more...the matter untested
Is most important, because advise given here is not only a personal interpretation but also statements saying " you will have to" which doesn't seem to be the case, more like "you may have to" so be aware.
Even all I have read with links and gov.uk
it always seems to say "may"

But it has been tested - at least the principle since 1998, The uncertainty since 2021 has been largely around the transition to RGR/UKCA and that is now resolved by the general change in policy leading to the ongoing acceptance of CE labelling where the product standard is still the same. There are some products (not boats) which need UKCA certification. A good example would be beer glasses. The UK standard is now different from the EU and you will see the UKCA mark on them.

The "may have to" comment is correct. If you are importing a used boat it "may" require recertification depending on the RCD version that it was built to. As pointed out earlier the introduction of the latest RCD took place over a 3-4 year period before all boats had to comply. You will only know when all the documentation for the specific boat is scrutinised by the certifying body. Likewise with VAT payment as again it depends on the specifics of the boat and the importer given that there are reliefs available in certain circumstances.

The guidance from government posted here several times is sound, but it also links to the specialised unit in Portsmouth that was specifically set up to help those who are going through the process. Surely anybody who is seriously thinking of importing a boat would be wise to check with them before making any firm plans?

 

[billskip]

Surely anybody who is seriously thinking of importing a boat would be wise to check with them before making any firm plans?

Absolutely. And that is where I think any questions arising should be redirected to.

 

[nevis768]

But it has been tested - at least the principle since 1998, The uncertainty since 2021 has been largely around the transition to RGR/UKCA and that is now resolved by the general change in policy leading to the ongoing acceptance of CE labelling where the product standard is still the same. There are some products (not boats) which need UKCA certification. A good example would be beer glasses. The UK standard is now different from the EU and you will see the UKCA mark on them.

The "may have to" comment is correct. If you are importing a used boat it "may" require recertification depending on the RCD version that it was built to. As pointed out earlier the introduction of the latest RCD took place over a 3-4 year period before all boats had to comply. You will only know when all the documentation for the specific boat is scrutinised by the certifying body. Likewise with VAT payment as again it depends on the specifics of the boat and the importer given that there are reliefs available in certain circumstances.

The guidance from government posted here several times is sound, but it also links to the specialised unit in Portsmouth that was specifically set up to help those who are going through the process. Surely anybody who is seriously thinking of importing a boat would be wise to check with them before making any firm plans?

That's an independent business which has nothing to do with the Government, and "pushes" the nonsense that second hand boats bought in Europe and brought to the UK for private use need certification, which they do not. Anybody thinking of importing a second hand yacht would be very unwise to check with a company that runs a business doing certification. Who you should check with, if you can't read legislation for yourself would be Trading Standards who are the Prosecuting Authority defined in the Act. But as the requirement for any form certification has been delayed until 2027 that is quite unecessary.

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[doug748]

Absolutely. And that is where I think any questions arising should be redirected to.

I think the problem here is that they will redirect you to their representative bodies who will take your cash and impose bizarre requirements without a second thought about the actual standing of the boat, let alone the history, meaning or intention of the actual regulations.

This could be tested in court, where bad law is traditionally rooted out. It would need someone with nerve, deep pockets and a burning need to bring a target older boat into the UK. An unlikely combination.
If only we had a national body that could speak and act on our behalf.

.

 

[billskip]

I think the problem here is that they will redirect you to their representative bodies who will take your cash and impose bizarre requirements without a second thought about the actual standing of the boat, let alone the history, meaning or intention of the actual regulations.

This could be tested in court, where bad law is traditionally rooted out. It would need someone with nerve, deep pockets and a burning need to bring a target older boat into the UK. An unlikely combination.
If only we had a national body that could speak and act on our behalf.

.

Well I suppose I was really considering trust in the lesser of two evils...I certainly don't recommend anybody paying for service to know the legal requirements.
I am still convinced that quoting a forum post will hold little water when push comes to shove.

 

[jakew009]

Does a boat need an engine to pass an RCD inspection?

Step 1: import boat to UK
Step 2: remove engine
Step 3: get boat checked for RCD compliance
Step 4: get RCD certificate

... some time later put engine back in.

 

[dunedin]

That's an independent business which has nothing to do with the Government, and "pushes" the nonsense that second hand boats bought in Europe and brought to the UK for private use need certification, which they do not. Anybody thinking of importing a second hand yacht would be very unwise to check with a company that runs a business doing certification. Who you should check with, if you can't read legislation for yourself would be Trading Standards who are the Prosecuting Authority defined in the Act. But as the requirement for any form certification has been delayed until 2027 that is quite unecessary.

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

Yawn. How many times are you going to post a link to an article by a broker, which has some useful information but is not definitive and has errors in some important aspects, as posted above.
And nowhere that I could find in that (non definitive) article says that second hand boats being imported by an individual do not need certification.

 

[ylop]

Does a boat need an engine to pass an RCD inspection?

Step 1: import boat to UK
Step 2: remove engine
Step 3: get boat checked for RCD compliance
Step 4: get RCD certificate

... some time later put engine back in.

It is possible for boats to be designed with no engine and achieve RCD - sailing dinghies, for example. BUT there specific guidance in the notes on the directive for Post Construction Assesment that if a boat is designed for an inboard engine, with shaft drive, exhaust etc it must be present and part of the assessment! Major modifications such as installing an inboard engine in a boat the didn’t have one, or adding a much larger engine also invalidate the approval and require a new post construction assessment.

For old boats, there is potentially the "historic" let out. I have yet to see the formal definition of historic which applies for this.

Designed before 1950. Replicas can be permitted if they meet certain criteria on construction materials/techniques etc.

That's an independent business which has nothing to do with the Government, and "pushes" the nonsense that second hand boats bought in Europe and brought to the UK for private use need certification, which they do not.

What’s an independent business? Are you making up lies again claiming anyone saying this stuff is in it for their own financial gain? I believe Tranona was talking about the HMRC Pleasure Craft Import Unit in Portsmouth?

The government guidance document you repeatedly linked to also included this email address:
Goods.Regulation@businessandtrade.gov.uk

You could ask them directly, but I would just ask that you make sure to clearly ask the correct questions:

“I am considering importing a vessel from the EU. That vessel would be likely to have been manufactured before the current (2013) RCD directive came into force. Can you confirm if a vessel CE marked against the 1994 directive and which is located outside the UK would require to undergo a post construction assessment if I imported it privately? Is the same true for vessels which were on the EU market (but outside the U.K.) prior to the original RCD coming into effect in 1998.”

 

[Tranona]

Here's a quote from Wyatt which appears to show you're talking more nonsense,

What boats do not require UKCA or CE certification?​

Not all boats need a UKCA or CE marking. For instance, those vessels that have operated in EU/EEA countries prior to June 1998, plus boats built for personal use only, are exempt. Other types of vessels include hydrofoils, traditional canoes, pedalos, kayaks, sailing surfboards, historical boats, racing boats and gondolas.

Here's the link to the excellent article from where I have quoted the above paragraph showing you are talking absolute cobblers, and this is relevant to older boats and newer boats.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

See post#116 They are wrong

 

[Tranona]

I think the problem here is that they will redirect you to their representative bodies who will take your cash and impose bizarre requirements without a second thought about the actual standing of the boat, let alone the history, meaning or intention of the actual regulations.

This could be tested in court, where bad law is traditionally rooted out. It would need someone with nerve, deep pockets and a burning need to bring a target older boat into the UK. An unlikely combination.
If only we had a national body that could speak and act on our behalf.

.

No they won't. They will advise what the law says and the process to go through. The certifying bodies simply do not act in the way you describe. In the past CE Proof who were then the main certifying body were very helpful in assisting importers comply - read your favourite guru Tom Cunliffe on his experiences of importing privately 2 boats . Instead of ranting on about how unfair it all is, better to determine what is required and then judge whether the requirements can be met or not

Not a chance of challenging in the courts as courts only deal with what the law says, not whether it is fair or not. As was explained by ylop in an earlier post the regulations were carried over from the EU by statutory instrument without going through parliament. If you followed current affairs post Brexit you would know that this process was hotly debated and criticised. The "bonfire of EU laws" never happened. The law can still be changed at this level by statutory instrument just as the labelling law has been changed. However it needs somebody either MPs or campaigning bodies to persuade ministers to take action. This is exactly what happened with the change in the VAT RGR rule as a result of RYA/BMF/CA campaigning.

There is little chance of any change as the number of people potentially negatively affected is tiny, and the real number once the real cost of import including tax is known even tinier.

 

[nevis768]

No they won't. They will advise what the law says and the process to go through. The certifying bodies simply do not act in the way you describe. In the past CE Proof who were then the main certifying body were very helpful in assisting importers comply - read your favourite guru Tom Cunliffe on his experiences of importing privately 2 boats . Instead of ranting on about how unfair it all is, better to determine what is required and then judge whether the requirements can be met or not

Not a chance of challenging in the courts as courts only deal with what the law says, not whether it is fair or not. As was explained by ylop in an earlier post the regulations were carried over from the EU by statutory instrument without going through parliament. If you followed current affairs post Brexit you would know that this process was hotly debated and criticised. The "bonfire of EU laws" never happened. The law can still be changed at this level by statutory instrument just as the labelling law has been changed. However it needs somebody either MPs or campaigning bodies to persuade ministers to take action. This is exactly what happened with the change in the VAT RGR rule as a result of RYA/BMF/CA campaigning.

There is little chance of any change as the number of people potentially negatively affected is tiny, and the real number once the real cost of import including tax is known even tinier.

Doesn't apply, complete rubbish. See the legislation.

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[nevis768]

Yawn. How many times are you going to post a link to an article by a broker, which has some useful information but is not definitive and has errors in some important aspects, as posted above.
And nowhere that I could find in that (non definitive) article says that second hand boats being imported by an individual do not need certification.

Larger yawn, how many times are you going to post nonsense contrary to the legislation. First all it was just me that wrong, now it's everybody who disagrees with you.

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[Tranona]

Doesn't apply, complete rubbish. See the legislation.

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

Why do you keep on posting this as if it changes anything?

 

[ylop]

Doesn't apply, complete rubbish. See the legislation.

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

That’s not the legislation! The important line of the legislation is this:

1. These Regulations may be cited as the Recreational Craft Regulations 2017 and come into force on 3rd August 2017 (“the commencement date”).

The extensions (which by the way I think are now indefinite not just to 2027) were to ammendments that required UKCA labelling (and associated compliance). If you look at s89A of the regs, you will see clauses 4 through 8 have been deleted. You can see the references to 31/12/2024 and 2027. Those changes having been made in October 2024.

 

[doug748]

No they won't. They will advise what the law says and the process to go through. The certifying bodies simply do not act in the way you describe. In the past CE Proof who were then the main certifying body were very helpful in assisting importers comply - read your favourite guru Tom Cunliffe on his experiences of importing privately 2 boats . Instead of better to determine what is required and then judge whether the requirements can be met or not

Not a chance of challenging in the courts as courts only deal with what the law says, not whether it is fair or not. As was explained by ylop in an earlier post the regulations were carried over from the EU by statutory instrument without going through parliament. If you followed current affairs post Brexit you would know that this process was hotly debated and criticised. The "bonfire of EU laws" never happened. The law can still be changed at this level by statutory instrument just as the labelling law has been changed. However it needs somebody either MPs or campaigning bodies to persuade ministers to take action. This is exactly what happened with the change in the VAT RGR rule as a result of RYA/BMF/CA campaigning.

There is little chance of any change as the number of people potentially negatively affected is tiny, and the real number once the real cost of import including tax is known even tinier.

Thanks for your advice even though we have heard it many times.

The matter has not been properly tested, or if it has the proceedings are not yet in the public domain, you have admitted this yourself in your less florid moments. We all know of examples from twenty years ago, a different time, a different place.
That was a time, incidentally, when it could be argued that the rules had some justification and few contradictions.

Reading around the matter it becomes clear the regulations were framed largely around new, or recent, product and commercial enterprises. This does not exempt the obligations of a private importer but it creates doubt, doubt about the intention of the restrictions and doubt about how it would be applied in practice. Few people would want to challenge this for obvious reasons.

I'm sorry you felt my post 117 was "ranting on about how unfair it all is," It seemed to me a point of information for casual readers, Not for you, obviously, as you know everything.

Courts have a great influence in law. Not only will they give a judgement on the reading of the law which is moot here, but they can issue peppercorn fines, derisory damages and pointed statements from the bench. The common law of England is tested and honed in the courts, it has been described (possibly with some hyperbole) as our greatest gift to the world.
The regulators may well not risk a trivial case, which arguably comes outside the scope and intentions of the regulations, against the risk of bringing the themselves and the laws into disrepute.

However never underestimate the zeal of minor bureaucrats when spending our money, they might well proceed. Despite your confidence in Certifying Bodies, this is why you have told us you know of several examples of private importers who have quietly overlooked their services.

.

 

[billskip]

If you look at s89A of the regs, you will see clauses 4 through 8 have been deleted.

Why don't you post a copy,so all ring side observers of this debate are sure they are not reading different articles than your reference.

 

[Tranona]

Courts have a great influence in law. Not only will they give a judgement on the reading of the law which is moot here, but they can issue peppercorn fines, derisory damages and pointed statements from the bench. The common law of England is tested and honed in the courts, it has been described (possibly with some hyperbole) as our greatest gift to the world.
The regulators may well not risk a trivial case, which arguably comes outside the scope and intentions of the regulations, against the risk of bringing the themselves and the laws into disrepute.

However never underestimate the zeal of minor bureaucrats when spending our money, they might well proceed. Despite your confidence in Certifying Bodies, this is why you have told us you know of several examples of private importers who have quietly overlooked their services.

.

Courts do have an influence, but little in this type of situation. They interpret law when it is statutory to see if it has been applied correctly - not whether it is fair or good law. This is different from common law where law is developed through precedent. It is really difficult to see what sort of case could be made in this instance as the law is clear about what is and is not allowed. The way to change law of this type is through the political process in just the same way as the labelling law has been changed.

The examples I have given of avoiding laws with respect to boats have been non payment of VAT. I can also recall examples around the 1998 change of boats imported from the US by individuals being impounded for non compliance with the RCD. Also cases of boats owned by Americans that had crossed the Atlantic and entered under TA where the owners were unable to sail them back but were also unable to sell because they did not comply with the RCD. A forum member recently looked at buying a boat in Europe that was built in the US to "European" standards but was not certified. It was a pre 2013 boat and he quickly discovered that the cost of certifying it was prohibitive. The boat was taken back to the US and sold there.

As to the chances of "getting caught", these are potentially much higher now given the more robust customs and immigration regime introduced since Brexit. However this kind of activity has always been marginal and perhaps more likely to be accidental than a deliberate attempt to break the law.

 

[billskip]

A forum member recently looked at buying a boat in Europe that was built in the US to "European" standards but was not certified

Confusing me more...this discussion I thought was about boats that are certified. What has non certified boats got to do with it?

 

[Tranona]

Confusing me more...this discussion I thought was about boats that are certified. What has non certified boats got to do with it?

Simple. The boat could have been easily certified when it was built but would now require a PCA. Actually read the first post - the question was about old pre certification boats. As with most threads it morphed into something different despite several attempts to bring it back to the original question. This is mainly because one poster introduced the latest regs about labelling which have nothing to do with the original question.

BTW I think if you look back ylop has posted a link to the full TCT/RCD regulations (as I may have) where you will find the section he refers to.

 

[billskip]

Hi all...
I'm talking old boats here , not company pre vat boats...


I see a lot of boats for sale around the world and if pre 1985 it will say tax not applicable....

It might not be applicable if the boat is kept in the country that is registered...

but as soon as you take it anywhere else in the world it's subject to vat...no matter the age isn't it...

And for example , if a boat was bought in the us with a purchase invoice lower than it should be And you brought it back to the uk for example.... Is the vat calculated on what customs think it's worth or what the invoice you says...

Thanks everyone

Actually read the first post - the question was about old pre certification boats

I've quoted the first post which I read is about tax with reference to vat.

Please indicate where in that post certification of boats , presumably ...(wrong never presume).. you meaning CE.
Is mentioned.

The clear cut yes or no answer to the CE issue is not going to be found in peoples
Personal interpretation of the regulations.