Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[benjenbav]

Courts do have an influence, but little in this type of situation. They interpret law when it is statutory to see if it has been applied correctly - not whether it is fair or good law. This is different from common law where law is developed through precedent. It is really difficult to see what sort of case could be made in this instance as the law is clear about what is and is not allowed. The way to change law of this type is through the political process in just the same way as the labelling law has been changed.

The examples I have given of avoiding laws with respect to boats have been non payment of VAT. I can also recall examples around the 1998 change of boats imported from the US by individuals being impounded for non compliance with the RCD. Also cases of boats owned by Americans that had crossed the Atlantic and entered under TA where the owners were unable to sail them back but were also unable to sell because they did not comply with the RCD. A forum member recently looked at buying a boat in Europe that was built in the US to "European" standards but was not certified. It was a pre 2013 boat and he quickly discovered that the cost of certifying it was prohibitive. The boat was taken back to the US and sold there.

As to the chances of "getting caught", these are potentially much higher now given the more robust customs and immigration regime introduced since Brexit. However this kind of activity has always been marginal and perhaps more likely to be accidental than a deliberate attempt to break the law.

I glanced at the original post in this thread just now - thinking perhaps to add that a broker’s description of an item as ‘VAT not applicable’ (or similar wording) should not be taken as a warranty. It’s advertising puffery; applicable when certain planets align.

Then, with some regret, I saw that the thread had descended into RCD wars volume 94. FWIW, as I think you know, I agree with your interpretation and have nothing to add to that.

But, I’m posting because this thread has touched on one issue which I think is quite intriguing; namely the extent to which the UK courts can intervene to do anything beyond interpret legislation.

One outcome of UK’s decision to leave the EU is that we now have a legal system in which Parliament is sovereign. It’s simply not constitutional for the courts to seek to change legislation any more as it was in the days when the European Court played a role in modifying legislation.

I offer no opinion on this; to do so would break the rules of this forum. This is just how things are.

 

[nevis768]

Why do you keep on posting this as if it changes anything?

Because you keep posting your opinion which is irrelevant, whereas I post the Legislation and comment on it. You seem completely unable post any legislation to back up your opinion and your constant recommendation of a company.......ahem

 

[Pye_End]

Because you keep posting your opinion which is irrelevant, whereas I post the Legislation and comment on it. You seem completely unable post any legislation to back up your opinion and your constant recommendation of a company.......ahem

Your own links on the legislation (not the one from the brokerage) do not say what you think they do.

RYA membership will confirm Tranona's interpretation, and is very clear - surely you accept this as authoritative?

 

[ylop]

Why don't you post a copy,so all ring side observers of this debate are sure they are not reading different articles than your reference.

Bill I have posted the actual regulations (not the guidance notes Nevis repeatedly posts calling “the Act”). They are probably even easier found on Google than reading the thread, as with all U.K. law it is posted on legislation.gov.uk; the hardest part is sometimes knowing what to look for - but in this case all the clues are in the thread. Whenever I post the actual legislation Nevis ignores it for some reason ;-)

So here you are:

S89A: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017
Where you will see there are subclauses with no content - footnotes showing why removed (linking to that secondary legisalation) and options at the top to go back in time and see what it said before it was deleted etc!

S1: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which says it was in effect from 2017 - Nevis ignoring that point!

S2:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines various terms including which directive (the 2013 version) is referred to.

S36:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines the obligations of private importers

S71:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which requires trading standards to impound (or otherwise prevent the use of) the boat by the private importer - which is probably a bigger concern than prosecution for most.

And of course you can also get to any of the other sections and the table of contents from those links.

 

[billskip]

Bill I have posted the actual regulations (not the guidance notes Nevis repeatedly posts calling “the Act”). They are probably even easier found on Google than reading the thread, as with all U.K. law it is posted on legislation.gov.uk; the hardest part is sometimes knowing what to look for - but in this case all the clues are in the thread. Whenever I post the actual legislation Nevis ignores it for some reason ;-)

So here you are:

S89A: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017
Where you will see there are subclauses with no content - footnotes showing why removed (linking to that secondary legisalation) and options at the top to go back in time and see what it said before it was deleted etc!

S1: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which says it was in effect from 2017 - Nevis ignoring that point!

S2:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines various terms including which directive (the 2013 version) is referred to.

S36:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines the obligations of private importers

S71:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which requires trading standards to impound (or otherwise prevent the use of) the boat by the private importer - which is probably a bigger concern than prosecution for most.

And of course you can also get to any of the other sections and the table of contents from those links.

Ok thanks, I was entering the search wrong, that's why I was going in circles.
I will have a read and if I don't find clarity.......


I'll be back....

 

[nevis768]

Your own links on the legislation (not the one from the brokerage) do not say what you think they do.

RYA membership will confirm Tranona's interpretation, and is very clear - surely you accept this as authoritative?

What a load of crap. How do you mean it doesn't say what I think it says, it's in black and white. RYA doesnt support Tranona's position at all, their advice is well out of date, and they do say they will update in due course. Their advice pre dates this UK legislative change

This guidance has been amended to reflect the announcements on 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024 that the Government is extending recognition of certain goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024.

 

[nevis768]

Bill I have posted the actual regulations (not the guidance notes Nevis repeatedly posts calling “the Act”). They are probably even easier found on Google than reading the thread, as with all U.K. law it is posted on legislation.gov.uk; the hardest part is sometimes knowing what to look for - but in this case all the clues are in the thread. Whenever I post the actual legislation Nevis ignores it for some reason ;-)

So here you are:

S89A: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017
Where you will see there are subclauses with no content - footnotes showing why removed (linking to that secondary legisalation) and options at the top to go back in time and see what it said before it was deleted etc!

S1: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which says it was in effect from 2017 - Nevis ignoring that point!

S2:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines various terms including which directive (the 2013 version) is referred to.

S36:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which defines the obligations of private importers

S71:
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Which requires trading standards to impound (or otherwise prevent the use of) the boat by the private importer - which is probably a bigger concern than prosecution for most.

And of course you can also get to any of the other sections and the table of contents from those links.

Nothing like ignoring the Statutory Instruments which update the Act, loL, top drawer buffoonery, see updated legislation below

This guidance has been amended to reflect the announcements on 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024 that the Government is extending recognition of certain goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

 

[ylop]

Nothing like ignoring the Statutory Instruments which update the Act, loL, top drawer buffoonery, see updated legislation below

This guidance has been amended to reflect the announcements on 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024 that the Government is extending recognition of certain goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024.

CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

The legislation.gov.uk links (the actual legislation) are updated to reflect the 1/10/2024 changes. I actually linked you to the SIs which removed the deadlines - but still you seem to present it as though the entire RCRs are not in force, despite all the articles you post to saying the opposite.

If you refuse to explain how legislation which came into effect in 2017 does not apply, or keep saying “see update legislation” and quoting a company blog rather than the actual legislation then the only conclusion I can draw is you are an internet troll wasting everyone’s time for your own personal gratification: you know full well that the position you paint is factually incorrect but gain some pleasure from selectively quoting or intentionally misinterpreting the facts.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Because you keep posting your opinion which is irrelevant, whereas I post the Legislation and comment on it. You seem completely unable post any legislation to back up your opinion and your constant recommendation of a company.......ahem

I'm thinking about buying and privately importing a train that's for sale in Latvia for personal use (big boys, big toys; a proper train set). However, it seems it was made in the USSR in 1973 rather than the EU and the broker doesn't mention anything about CE compliance. It's this one...

BR232 – European Locomotive

Someone on a train forum said I might have to replace the engine when I get it here which worries me as a replacement for the 16 cylinder 3035hp 16ЧН26/26 model might be a bit pricier than swapping out an old MD2. Another shouty type disagreed, so now I'm confused. You seem an expert on these things so what do you reckon? Do you think I'll be able to slip it in to the country without or the hassle of any compliance niggles? Anyone got a copy of the Recreational Train Directive?

 

[nevis768]

The legislation.gov.uk links (the actual legislation) are updated to reflect the 1/10/2024 changes. I actually linked you to the SIs which removed the deadlines - but still you seem to present it as though the entire RCRs are not in force, despite all the articles you post to saying the opposite.

If you refuse to explain how legislation which came into effect in 2017 does not apply, or keep saying “see update legislation” and quoting a company blog rather than the actual legislation then the only conclusion I can draw is you are an internet troll wasting everyone’s time for your own personal gratification: you know full well that the position you paint is factually incorrect but gain some pleasure from selectively quoting or intentionally misinterpreting the facts.

So is this Broker an internet troll too, or have you considered the fact that you are completely wrong
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

Is everybody who disagrees with you a troll?

 

[doug748]

I'm thinking about buying and privately importing a train that's for sale in Latvia for personal use (big boys, big toys; a proper train set). However, it seems it was made in the USSR in 1973 rather than the EU and the broker doesn't mention anything about CE compliance. It's this one...

BR232 – European Locomotive

Someone on a train forum said I might have to replace the engine when I get it here which worries me as a replacement for the 16 cylinder 3035hp 16ЧН26/26 model might be a bit pricier than swapping out an old MD2. Another shouty type disagreed, so now I'm confused. You seem an expert on these things so what do you reckon? Do you think I'll be able to slip it in to the country without or the hassle of any compliance niggles? Anyone got a copy of the Recreational Train Directive?

On no account deal with this import yourself, you need an agent.

.

 

[doug748]

On no account deal with this import yourself, you need an agent.

.

I know a good man:




.

 

[nevis768]

On no account deal with this import yourself, you need an agent.

.

I know 3 good men who can do this for you, no expense spared, and they will also write their own legislation to ensure you will have no hassle from Trading Standards who can impound your train, fine you, charge you costs, make you sell your wife and dog to pay the huge fines. They are watching every station for anybody importing an uncertified train. Choo Choo

 

[billskip]

make you sell your wife and dog to pay the huge fines.

We're they imported, have they had their engines changed?

 

[ylop]

So is this Broker an internet troll too, or have you considered the fact that you are completely wrong
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

I have considered whether I am completely wrong, and by having referred to Legislation.gov.uk rather than a yacht broker's site I am satisfied that I am not. Do I think they are a troll? Not at all - they have provided some general information which is by and large correct, certainly not intentionally misleading and they are not arguing themselves round in circles. However their article does not cover s36 (Private Import) - why would it, if they are a UK based broker they are selling boats which have already been imported, nor does it get into the detail of pre-2013/2017 boats imported from EU to GB. Why would it? Its such a niche area, its confusing, and probably none of their customers care.

Is everybody who disagrees with you a troll?

No only those who insist on people citing legislation but when you do they refuse to explain whats wrong with it!

 

[billskip]

So is this Broker an internet troll too, or have you considered the fact that you are completely wrong
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt

Is everybody who disagrees with you a troll?

Why don't you phone and ask them to clarify their statement?

 

[billskip]

their article does not cover s36 (Private Import) -

From what I've read so far, if I'm reading the correct information, this seems to revolve around whether the product has previously been on the UK market.

The problem I have with that is "the product" It is not clear to me where it states "the individual product" as opposed to the product by design/manufacturer.

 

[Graham376]

...........However their article does not cover s36 (Private Import) - why would it, if they are a UK based broker they are selling boats which have already been imported, nor does it get into the detail of pre-2013/2017 boats imported from EU to GB. Why would it? Its such a niche area, its confusing, and probably none of their customers care.

UK brokers also sell many boats based in Europe and elsewhere. Although many are advertised a VAT not paid, I've yet to see any warning about needing UK or EU compliance.

 

[Tranona]

From what I've read so far, if I'm reading the correct information, this seems to revolve around whether the product has previously been on the UK market.

The problem I have with that is "the product" It is not clear to me where it states "the individual product" as opposed to the product by design/manufacturer.

Definitely individual product rather than "type". Each individual product has to have its own CE/UKCA mark and in the specific case of boats a supporting Certificate of Conformity for the boat and the engine. That comes in the owners handbook pack that accompanies the boat from the builder and should be kept with the boat throughout its life. The boat must also have a plate mounted in a defined position, usually the cockpit containing information on its category and permitted payloads.

 

[billskip]

I've yet to see any warning about needing UK or EU compliance.

Yes, I've never seen any.
Many times I have seen in the USofA this boat cannot be sold to an American whilst in US waters, which may be a similar situation.
I would have thought it would be obligatory for UK brokers.