gaylord694
Active member
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Tax not applicable...how can it be ??
- Thread starter Artic Warrior
- Start date
gaylord694
Active member
I certainly didn't mean what you've posted being rude I think you must of mis read who it was aimed at
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billskip
Well-known member
Tranona
Well-known member
Well, I did try harder at school (and university) and have studied law as well as being involved in the marine business since 1977 as a senior manager, academic or consultant so feel quite happy in posting on topics where I have the knowledge. Nothing from me on this thread is "opinion" but is based on an understanding of the relevant laws which have all appeared here posted by myself or others. If you go back over the last 20+ years on this forum you will find this topic comes up regularly and the advice given is always the same because the basic legal regime has been in place since 1998. The only significant change has been the cessation of free circulation of boats following the UK withdrawal from the EU. As you can see if you read the relevant posts the transition has created some uncertainty about how the rules are being operated, but it does not change the underlying need for all imports of boats from outside the UK to be certified.
There are many topics that come up here about which I know little, and I learn a lot by listening to others. For example I would not have tackled rewiring my boat without the help from other knowledgeable posters on the subject. You will also see that there are many threads here when I make no contribution because I have nothing to bring to the party.
It is a pity that a very small number of posters from time to time take unsupportable positions on a subject about which they clearly know little. However as others have said that is what happens on forums - fortunately most recognise their error.
nevis768
Active member
Gaylord, apologies
nevis768
Active member
Think you have definitely proved you know very little about this. You have posted some absolute nonsense as has YLOP. I knew you were in the trade, as is YLOP, which no doubt explains your stance. I also recall you previously denied being in the trade when asked.
However, I see you're now claiming to have studied law, (yeah right) so perhaps you can explain how the Legislation below is saying if a vessel is CE marked there is no requirement for UKCA marking.
- On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.
- On 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024, the UK Government announced it would extend recognition of goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. This means that certain goods that meet EU requirements can be placed on the GB market beyond 31 December 2024. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024. The legislation also provides for a ‘Fast-Track’ UKCA scheme, whereby steps taken towards CE marking will count towards UKCA marking, while UK product safety regulations remain aligned with EU product safety law.
And if you check you can see it's now being extended until 2027, that's even if it did apply to older second hand yachts. (Which it definitely doesn't)
Just refer the Legislation, without posting your opinion, because it's irrelevant.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain
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billskip
Well-known member
I have searched all the gov.uk gone round and round in circles, I have read all the links posted here ...
I cannot find anywhere a statement that says quite clearly if a person (not a company, business or commercial) brings a second hand boat under 24 meters saying payment is necessary.
Can someone please quote the exact legislation saying that payment is necessary and a guide of amount of fees payable.
I am not interested in third party information, the actual law/act.
If it is out there, please copy and paste it or provide a link.
I cannot find anywhere a statement that says quite clearly if a person (not a company, business or commercial) brings a second hand boat under 24 meters saying payment is necessary.
Can someone please quote the exact legislation saying that payment is necessary and a guide of amount of fees payable.
I am not interested in third party information, the actual law/act.
If it is out there, please copy and paste it or provide a link.
dunedin
Well-known member
So can you clarify what you are asking here - have you flipped from RCD Certification matters to VAT status and liability, for example?
Need more clarity from your question to get clarity if answer.
billskip
Well-known member
Well it was two stage really, the first being clarification about VAT and RGR.
I found this .....but cannot find any restrictions on private purchase/sale provided use has not been comercial.
Next stage, RCD does appear to be deferred until 2027.
billskip
Well-known member
Continue.....this ^^^ does not define what VAT and where paid but one could argue without confirmation ones belief that it means UK VAT , remember we are talking private..not comercial..
Tranona
Well-known member
You really need to understand that has nothing to do with the need to have imports certified. All it is doing is extending the transition for the replacement of CE marking with UKCA.
This thread is about importing secondhand boats that do not have a CE mark, or have a CE mark for the earlier RCD - that is they need a PCA and will get a UKCA if they meet the post 2017 RCD (which is the same as the RCR that is needed for a UKCA. Nowhere does that link refer to such boats. It applies to new boats and probably any used boats that meet the current RCD. I say "probably" because last time I looked there seemed to be some confusion in professional circles about this - but it seems logical given the change in policy on marking.
If you knew anything about this saga you would know that between 1/1/2021 and 20/6/2022 boats with CE marks to the current standards also required a UKCA which typically cost the importer about £1000 to submit the documents . As in many things in the transition the government changed its mind and decided that in many product areas it would not deviate from EU standards and would therefore accept CE marking alone, initially for a limited period and now indefinitely for "many products". I do not know if pleasure craft are included, but would guess that they are, if only because the current RCD was largely written in the UK and as there is little volume boat building in the UK for the domestic market there is no pressure to diverge from the EU. I have no doubt all this will be welcomed particularly by new boat dealers as it will significantly reduce their costs and administration.
I retired many years ago so I am not "in the trade" in the sense that I have any financial interest in buying and selling boats. However my educational background and over 30 years university teaching and consultancy in relevant areas stand me in good stead when dealing with this subject matter.
nevis768
Active member
The thread is now about RCD 2107, and CE marking. My line of work was enforcement, and I am well used to reading Acts or Statutory instruments.
It is absolutely clear that the Government have now accepted CE marking as acceptable in lieu of UKCA marking, so CE marking came in 98, if your boat bought abroad has that then you no longer need to have any UKCA certification done if you bring it to the UK. There's a good article here about it from an industry expert, (so what you may say about me being the only person saying this is just more absolute tosh)
Here's the article, and the first paragraph says it all really
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt
*This article was originally published in June 2021, before being updated in February 2022, and then again in November 2022, to reflect timeframe changes made by the UK government. The latest update was in August 2023, following the announcement that the CE mark will be recognised indefinitely.
Of course, there has now been further update accepting the CE mark until 2027.
So, some of your remarks that I'm an annoying person and the only person saying this are complete drivel, and I hope you won't continue post nonsense about this.
gaylord694
Active member
Unfortunately times change especially with modern technology and ideas ....YOUR certainly NOT in a position to be questioning people's financial situations that's for sure as that is a private matter for the individual
billskip
Well-known member
But why can't you extract the simple law/legislation issued by the government referring to private ( non commercial )
Possessions that the gov.uk website say boats are considered part of?
A couple of lines directly related confirmation please
Tranona
Well-known member
RGR first. This has been in place since 1992 as a result of the EU VAT directive which the UK accepted in the Accession treaty. It applies to all goods, not just boats that leave the customs territory. In the case of boats VAT payment confers free circulation and this is potentially lost if the boat leaves. What RGR permits is for the original "exporter" to return with the boat and regain VAT paid status. However if it is sold outside the EU it will be subject to VAT if imported into customs territory as RGR is only available to the original exporter. This is the same rule that applies generally in trade, for example, exhibition goods taken abroad and returned, or the goods the UK based F1 teams take to tracks in Europe and return to UK. The basic EU rule had a 3 year limit with provision for extensions if approved by local customs who operate the system.
The system works well across Europe and the UK for genuine cruisers who may want to leave for extended cruises. However Brexit created a problem for many UK residents who owned boats that were based in EU but had originated from the UK. Many of these had been there for well over 3 years and lobbying from the RYA, BMF and CA persuaded the government to remove the 3 year limit entirely. Such boats are now EU VAT paid and can circulate freely including being sold in the EU without further VAT payment. They can also return to the UK if the owner qualifies for RGR and be sold without any restrictions.
That is what your clip refers to although the second bit is incorrect. There are no restrictions on selling the boat once it is back in the UK - it is as if it never left. It would lose its EU VAT status if it were sold, although the original owner could maintain that by visiting the EU every 3 years. I am sure that quite a few people are doing this - owning a boat that is considered both UK and EU VAT paid. Inevitably, though the number of boats in this situation will decline fairly rapidly as many are owned by older people who will sell up or shift to another place.
For certification of boats moving into the UK what you can read from posts in this thread by myself and ylop in particular is correct. All imports whether private or commercial require certification so I won't bore you with repeating it all. However, for completion it is important to note that this does not apply to boats returning under RGR, because they are considered to have never left . The same boat though would if a new owner bought it outside the UK.
A clear and logical mind is needed to sort through this maze of legislation and regulations. As in many situations involving laws which have changed and developed over time you need to establish the facts of the individual case/boat/owners to identify which bits of law apply. The principles though are very clear.
Tranona
Well-known member
I can't see anything in the post you are replying to that says anything about anybody's financial position. All it is doing is clarifying (for the umpteenth time) what those bits of legislation mean - and what they don't mean.
gaylord694
Active member
I was referring to other posts you'd replied to on other topics .. Your know the ones if as you keep telling everyone your an educated man
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dunedin
Well-known member
Not sure where you got that quote from, but this relates to the campaign by BM, RYA, CA etc to get the 3 Year limit on VAT Returned Goods Relief waived - but ONLY applies to boats being returned to the UK which had previously been in the UK under the same ownership, and not materially changed since left the UK.
If a UK resident buys a boat outside the UK (eg from the EU) then this does not apply and UK VAT is payable immediately on entry to the UK (no 18 month entry applies to Uk residents).
This is well documented in the Uk government sites and extensively probed /checked by the lawyers at RYA, BM and experts at CA etc.
This is separate to the RCD / RCR Certification matter (where everything I have seen from the experts supports what Tranona has said, and not what Nevis hopes.)
billskip
Well-known member
@dunedin ^^^
Can you point me to the gov.uk legislation that clearly says that please.
The reason is that after going as deep into the gov.uk I eventually came across a section that explained for boats upto 24mtr, on investigation it did not state any applicable conditions like it must be the original exporter, but it was clear that it referred to private personal user not comercial.
Can you point me to the gov.uk legislation that clearly says that please.
The reason is that after going as deep into the gov.uk I eventually came across a section that explained for boats upto 24mtr, on investigation it did not state any applicable conditions like it must be the original exporter, but it was clear that it referred to private personal user not comercial.
westernman
Well-known member
What he hopes could have been reasonably legislated. E.g. accepting the RCD which the boat was certified to and not requiring it to be certified to the équivalent of the UK RCR. I.e. The latest version of RCD.
This issue, applying the latest version of R CD, has always existed for importing boats from the USA into the EU or UK. And this has effectively just been carried on.
