Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[doug748]

I actually agree with him in part ....

There is NO actual ban on brining in any boat to UK .... the way you do it is up to you and authorities.

Indeed, and though the legislation now seems to mean that imported boats need to be brought up to current standards, that is a side effect of the cut and paste legislation mentioned earlier. It is not unknown for Parliament to enact legislation with unplanned and sometimes random outcomes.

Someone said they had imported an older boat last year but we had no further information. Apart from that, the matter does not seem to have been much tested.
Some boats could never meet modern standards and, for example, if you wanted to repatriate a pre war Fife it seems unlikely that Governments would actually want to effectively stop you.

.

 

[nevis768]

I think you will find that the bit on hold is having to conform to the UK version of RCD (which at the moment is the same as the EU's RCD II/2013).
There are very few, if any, agencies qualified to certify a boat to the UK rules.

So what is on hold is having to be certified by a UK agency that the boat conforms to the UK rules. But you still either have to be certified by a qualified UK agency that your boat conforms to the UK rules, or they will accept as a substitute a certification to EU RCD II/2013 by a qualified EU agency.

The definition very definitely includes private buyers who are importing a boat from outside the UK. But if you are buying from a company in the UK it is the responsibility of that company (as is accounting for VAT). In principle they cannot sell you anything which is not certified.

The previous owner of my boat had to go through hoops to get my boat to be RCD certified to be able to import it into the UK back in 1998.

Complete nonsense.
Here is a quote from the previous thread and a link to it.
Here is the what the Act actually says, it explains about Putting into service which is actually the nub of the whole thing.

[F18“private importer” means a person who—

(a)
is established in the United Kingdom; and
(b)
imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a country outside of the United Kingdom into the United Kingdom with the intention of putting it into service for the person's own use;]
“product” means a product to which these Regulations apply, in accordance with regulation 3;

“propulsion engine” means any spark or compression ignition internal combustion engine used directly or indirectly for propulsion purposes;

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the [F19market of Great Britain] by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

to actually put into service for the purposes of the Act and actually do anything wrong, it would have to be shown that it was the first use of a product in the UK by it's end user. Note it doesn't say 'That product"

So, it is obviously about stopping the importation of untested watercraft, not somebody who buys a second hand Bavaria 350 in France and brings it here for his own use, because that is not the first use of such a product in the UK. In any case if you read the RYA legal advice, it also mentions the legislation is on hold until Dec 2024.
This is why nobody can source or example a prosecution against a second hand yacht buyer bringing a boat here, because there hasn't been one. Trading standards are the prosecuting authority and are not interested in second hand boat purchases.

This would make sense because otherwise you would have the situation where somebody buying a secondhand Bavaria in France and bringing it here would have to carry out tests, but somebody who bought the same boat in Southampton wouldn't have to.....are you having a laugh gov?? What would be the point?

Keeping an EU Boat in Southern Ireland & visiting the UK

 

[ylop]

This would make sense because otherwise you would have the situation where somebody buying a secondhand Bavaria in France and bringing it here would have to carry out tests, but somebody who bought the same boat in Southampton wouldn't have to.....are you having a laugh gov?? What would be the point?

You are making the mistake of thinking that it is in any way logical - what you describe in disparaging terms as being crazy is what that law says. It may have been unintended, it may be unlikely to be prosecuted, but it is what the legislation says. I’m fairly sure your nuanced interpretation of “a product” rather than “that product” is wrong. I’d certainly not risk my life savings on the legal fees to find out.

Repeatedly calling any view you don’t like “complete nonsense” is neither intelligent nor constructive debate. The fact the legislation is “on hold” until Wed (but might have been extended again?) doesn’t mean what you think it does - once the law becomes fully effective CE marking won’t be good enough - products will need a UKCA mark, even although they both essentially certify the same standard. Why? I can’t discuss that within the forum rules!

 

[Tranona]

Complete nonsense.
Here is a quote from the previous thread and a link to it.
Here is the what the Act actually says, it explains about Putting into service which is actually the nub of the whole thing.

[F18“private importer” means a person who—

(a)
is established in the United Kingdom; and
(b)
imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a watercraft from a country outside of the United Kingdom into the United Kingdom with the intention of putting it into service for the person's own use;]
“product” means a product to which these Regulations apply, in accordance with regulation 3;

“propulsion engine” means any spark or compression ignition internal combustion engine used directly or indirectly for propulsion purposes;

“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the [F19market of Great Britain] by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

to actually put into service for the purposes of the Act and actually do anything wrong, it would have to be shown that it was the first use of a product in the UK by it's end user. Note it doesn't say 'That product"

So, it is obviously about stopping the importation of untested watercraft, not somebody who buys a second hand Bavaria 350 in France and brings it here for his own use, because that is not the first use of such a product in the UK. In any case if you read the RYA legal advice, it also mentions the legislation is on hold until Dec 2024.
This is why nobody can source or example a prosecution against a second hand yacht buyer bringing a boat here, because there hasn't been one. Trading standards are the prosecuting authority and are not interested in second hand boat purchases.

This would make sense because otherwise you would have the situation where somebody buying a secondhand Bavaria in France and bringing it here would have to carry out tests, but somebody who bought the same boat in Southampton wouldn't have to.....are you having a laugh gov?? What would be the point?

Keeping an EU Boat in Southern Ireland & visiting the UK

I am not sure why you continue with this. It is very clear, as you have been told many times, that this legislation ONLY applies where the boat is CE marked to the post 2017 RCD which is the same as the RCR. All it is saying is that if the CE documentation is in order it does not need to go through any further processing.

The OP is not asking about such boats, but about a older boats that were made before the RCD was introduced. It is very clear that such boats, as well as any boat that does not have a post 2017 CE mark needs a Post Construction Assessment against the RCR.

It is really not helpful to posters looking for advice on the current legislation to suggest otherwise.

A Bavaria 350 was never CE marked as production ceased in around 1996. Prior to 31/12/2020 what you say was true because the UK was part of the EU and boats had free circulation (which included pre 1998 boats like the Bavaria 350, boats made in the EEA and boats in the EU on 31/12/1997). That changed on 1/1/2021 and boats from the EU no longer had free circulation in the UK so required certification (and VAT payment if imported into the UK.

I really don't know why you have so much difficulty with understanding all this as nobody else who has any knowledge of the subject or is willing to read up on it seems to have the same difficulty - not just poster here, but brokers, surveyors, certifying bodies, RYA, CA, BMF and others who deal with these matters in the course of their work.

 

[Artic Warrior]

The tax exempt or not applicable bit in adverts is largely meaningless as any tax liability depends on where the boat is and where you intend keeping it.

From a UK perspective just about any boat already in the UK will be seen as VAT paid, although there are obviously exceptions (boats owned by VAT registered entities, boats belonging to non residents and here under TA for visitors as examples). Since leaving the EU just about any boat brought into the UK by a resident is subject to VAT and certification. The only significant exceptions are boats owned by people who qualify for RGR or returning residents, or taking up residence. The numbers who can use these reliefs is very small. Such boats are then assumed UK VAT paid and can be sold freely (with some time restrictions for returning residents) within the UK.

The upshot of this is that for a UK resident wanting to buy a boat outside the UK for use in the UK faces a big barrier which in some cases, for example newer high value boats can be overcome, but for most it is just not viable.

Just further clarification. As already suggested registration is irrelevant as is the citizenship or tax status of the seller or buyer. The only things that matter is the boat and the residency of the importer. Despite what you may read from other posts, the rules on both VAT and certification apply to both private and commercial importers, and have done since 1992 in the case of VAT and 1998 for certification. The rules are cut and paste from the EU rules with the exception that the UK seems to have removed the certification exemption for pre 1998 EEA/EU built boats.

Hope this helps.

Ok Thank you for that...like you said...largely meaningless
..

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My boat is in the EU and was on B day. If I sell it in the EU then tax is not applicable. VAT has never been paid on my boat. It was built in 1971. I have no record of VAT but I do have a record of where it was on B day.

 

[nevis768]

I am not sure why you continue with this. It is very clear, as you have been told many times, that this legislation ONLY applies where the boat is CE marked to the post 2017 RCD which is the same as the RCR. All it is saying is that if the CE documentation is in order it does not need to go through any further processing.

The OP is not asking about such boats, but about a older boats that were made before the RCD was introduced. It is very clear that such boats, as well as any boat that does not have a post 2017 CE mark needs a Post Construction Assessment against the RCR.

It is really not helpful to posters looking for advice on the current legislation to suggest otherwise.

A Bavaria 350 was never CE marked as production ceased in around 1996. Prior to 31/12/2020 what you say was true because the UK was part of the EU and boats had free circulation (which included pre 1998 boats like the Bavaria 350, boats made in the EEA and boats in the EU on 31/12/1997). That changed on 1/1/2021 and boats from the EU no longer had free circulation in the UK so required certification (and VAT payment if imported into the UK.

I really don't know why you have so much difficulty with understanding all this as nobody else who has any knowledge of the subject or is willing to read up on it seems to have the same difficulty - not just poster here, but brokers, surveyors, certifying bodies, RYA, CA, BMF and others who deal with these matters in the course of their work.

I think that your response is complete nonsense, this Act is designed to deal with manufacturers and importers, hence you are unable quote from the Act, and more importantly point to 1 single case where there has been any action taken against a private buyer. What you say is completely against the RYA advice on this matter too. The Act clearly states that the legislation has been put on hold until end of Dec 2024 and will be reviewed then. What do you not understand about that?

 

[nevis768]

I think that your response is complete nonsense, this Act is designed to deal with manufacturers and importers, hence you are unable quote from the Act, and more importantly point to 1 single case where there has been any action taken against a private buyer. What you say is completely against the RYA advice on this matter too. The Act clearly states that the legislation has been put on hold until end of Dec 2024 and will be reviewed then. What do you not understand about that?

Also, if what you say was correct then somebody buying a second hand Bav 350 in France would have to have it certified, but somebody buying the same second hand boat in Southampton would not need to do so. Really? What a load of nonsense.

 

[nevis768]

Also, if what you say was correct then somebody buying a second hand Bav 350 in France would have to have it certified, but somebody buying the same second hand boat in Southampton would not need to do so. Really? What a load of nonsense.

Is there some reason you cant post the actual part of the Act that says that, and don't forget to post the part that says the legislation is being reviewed and non effective in any case until the end of the month.
Here is a lift from the guidance the Act which clearly shows who it is intended for, ie people placing products on the UK market, manufacturers, no mention of punters buying second hand boats for thrown use. The purpose of the Act , which you, Tranona, completely ignore, are set out in the last sentence.

This Guide is designed to help you understand The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, as they apply in GB (referred to in this document as “The 2017 Regulations”). The 2017 Regulations set out the requirements that must be met before products can be placed on the GB market. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure safe products are placed on the GB market by requiring manufacturers to show how their products meet the ‘essential requirements’.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

 

[Refueler]

Is there some reason you cant post the actual part of the Act that says that, and don't forget to post the part that says the legislation is being reviewed and non effective in any case until the end of the month.
Here is a lift from the guidance the Act which clearly shows who it is intended for, ie people placing products on the UK market, manufacturers, no mention of punters buying second hand boats for thrown use. The purpose of the Act , which you, Tranona, completely ignore, are set out in the last sentence.

This Guide is designed to help you understand The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, as they apply in GB (referred to in this document as “The 2017 Regulations”). The 2017 Regulations set out the requirements that must be met before products can be placed on the GB market. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure safe products are placed on the GB market by requiring manufacturers to show how their products meet the ‘essential requirements’.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

mmmmmm maybe this may help you :

Quote from the RCD first page :

"This guidance is relevant to manufacturers, importers (including private importers) "

 

[Refueler]

Its also interesting to read the exclusions where a 5 year period could apply if careful presentation is made ....

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

 

[ylop]

Is there some reason you cant post the actual part of the Act that says that, and don't forget to post the part that says the legislation is being reviewed and non effective in any case until the end of the month.
Here is a lift from the guidance the Act which clearly shows who it is intended for, ie people placing products on the UK market, manufacturers, no mention of punters buying second hand boats for thrown use. The purpose of the Act , which you, Tranona, completely ignore, are set out in the last sentence.

This Guide is designed to help you understand The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, as they apply in GB (referred to in this document as “The 2017 Regulations”). The 2017 Regulations set out the requirements that must be met before products can be placed on the GB market. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure safe products are placed on the GB market by requiring manufacturers to show how their products meet the ‘essential requirements’.
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

From section 8 of your guidance document linked to in your post:

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
• The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
• The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
• Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
• The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

Essentially when the RCD originally came in, boats which were already within the EU (which at the time included the U.K.) had grandfathered rights. Any vessel brought into the eu., whether new or used had to conform to RCR rules. The are sometimes referred to as “grandfather rights”. The same situation happened when the RCD was updated in the 2010’s. The U.K. left the EU and made as few changes to the regulatory regime as possible - but in so doing has only kept grandfathered rights for boats that were in GB not the Eu before the rules applied! Your obsession with the deadline in a few days time (which some sources suggest has been extended but the actual legislation doesn’t seem to have been updated) is not relevant, it’s for rules which “Britishify” the CE regs are require a UKCA mark. The requirement to prove conformity to the RCD was always there - it’s not a new rule. Pre98 boats from outside Europe have always had this problem, we’ve (probably accidentally) made that worse. We have also made it apply to 1998-2013/2017 boats - again probably not intentionally, after all the U.K. has always been very relaxed about recreational craft regulatory enforcement; it’s likely the Whitehall mandarins were trying to keep a level playing field for U.K. boat builders rather than protect consumers.

The question therefore remains - will a private importer:
- actually come to the attention of a regulatory authority in the U.K.? Nobody seems to know; nobody has answered it HMRC take any interest ant the border other than the VAT; probably nobody knows for sure without trying it (and approaches constantly change and people)
- actually encounter anyone in trading standards who understands the nuance of the rules; does it help you if they do or do you end up arguing with idiots?
- encounter future buyers (brokers/surveyors) who either won’t touch it or consider it a risk and so pay less?
- find problems with insurers who point to a clause that says “meets any regulatory requirements” and refuse to pay…

So the question of “can I get away with breaking the law” may well be different from “can I afford to comply”.

 

[Tranona]

I think that your response is complete nonsense, this Act is designed to deal with manufacturers and importers, hence you are unable quote from the Act, and more importantly point to 1 single case where there has been any action taken against a private buyer. What you say is completely against the RYA advice on this matter too. The Act clearly states that the legislation has been put on hold until end of Dec 2024 and will be reviewed then. What do you not understand about that?

Once again you really do not have a clue. What I have written is correct but you seem to have convinced yourself (and only yourself) that a piece of legislation "tidying up" the transition from CE marking to UKCA somehow applies to the underlying (and unchanged) need for all imported boats from outside the UK to be certified to the latest standards. For post 2017 CE marked boats their documentation is acceptable - but there is no need to "convert" to UKCA for new imports until next January. This is a considerable saving for the small number of private importers and particularly for importers/dealers in new boats. However it does not make any difference for imports of boats with earlier CE marks or no certification as these will still require a PCA.

Read post#32 as it explains how this situation came about - no need for me to repeat it. About the only thing we might agree on is that the legislation on certification post Brexit is illogical - but that is the result of doing things in a hurry at the time of the Withdrawal Agreement. There is no reason why the government cannot change this (as it did over the time limits for RGR for VAT), but in reality they have what they consider far more important things to consider in dealing with the anomalies of post Brexit rules and there is no campaigning group interested in pressing the case. Understandable as the number of people potentially negatively affected is tiny.

Hopefully the penny will drop with you and you will recognise that you have misunderstood the legislation you are quoting.

 

[Tranona]

Its also interesting to read the exclusions where a 5 year period could apply if careful presentation is made ....

The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Yes, that has always been the case and the 2 main exemptions used are for racing craft and pre 1950 designed boats. It is the latter that allows all those lovely pre war craft an international market with regular movements in and out of the EU/UK/USA. The home build was in the original 1997 RCD specifically at the request of the UK because home building or completion from kits was still a significant part of the UK marine industry at that point. So much so that the RYA set up a certifying body to advise home builders/completers on compliance and certifying if required. It also offered PCAs for individual importer of boats from outside the EU. It lasted until (from memory) 2005 when it was closed because of lack of demand.

 

[nevis768]

From section 8 of your guidance document linked to in your post:

8. Obligations of private importers​

A private importer is any natural or legal person (e.g. a company) established in the UK who imports in the course of a non-commercial activity a product from a country outside the UK with the intention of putting it into service for their own use.

The obligations of private importers include:

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.
• The private importer must ensure before putting recreational craft into service that it has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements.
• The private importer must ensure that the obligations for manufacturer covering technical documentation; declaration of conformity; relevant marking; instructions and safety information; provision of information and cooperation have been met or carried out.
• Where technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, the private importer must have this drawn up using the appropriate expertise.
• The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the approved body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product is marked on the craft.

Essentially when the RCD originally came in, boats which were already within the EU (which at the time included the U.K.) had grandfathered rights. Any vessel brought into the eu., whether new or used had to conform to RCR rules. The are sometimes referred to as “grandfather rights”. The same situation happened when the RCD was updated in the 2010’s. The U.K. left the EU and made as few changes to the regulatory regime as possible - but in so doing has only kept grandfathered rights for boats that were in GB not the Eu before the rules applied! Your obsession with the deadline in a few days time (which some sources suggest has been extended but the actual legislation doesn’t seem to have been updated) is not relevant, it’s for rules which “Britishify” the CE regs are require a UKCA mark. The requirement to prove conformity to the RCD was always there - it’s not a new rule. Pre98 boats from outside Europe have always had this problem, we’ve (probably accidentally) made that worse. We have also made it apply to 1998-2013/2017 boats - again probably not intentionally, after all the U.K. has always been very relaxed about recreational craft regulatory enforcement; it’s likely the Whitehall mandarins were trying to keep a level playing field for U.K. boat builders rather than protect consumers.

The question therefore remains - will a private importer:
- actually come to the attention of a regulatory authority in the U.K.? Nobody seems to know; nobody has answered it HMRC take any interest ant the border other than the VAT; probably nobody knows for sure without trying it (and approaches constantly change and people)
- actually encounter anyone in trading standards who understands the nuance of the rules; does it help you if they do or do you end up arguing with idiots?
- encounter future buyers (brokers/surveyors) who either won’t touch it or consider it a risk and so pay less?
- find problems with insurers who point to a clause that says “meets any regulatory requirements” and refuse to pay…

So the question of “can I get away with breaking the law” may well be different from “can I afford to comply”.

There are a lot of errors in the above, none of this has anything to do with HRMC, they aren't the prosecuting authority, that is stated in the Act, and it's Trading Standards. They don't deal with people buying second hand boats. Hence there has never been a prosecution, and won't be.

Also the first line of the definition of Private importer states,

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

So, for a start you would have to import a boat not previously placed on the UK market for any of the above to apply.
In any case, as per post 3 above, the UK Gov have now accepted if it has EU CE marking that's acceptable. (But none of this applies to punters buying secondhand boats anyway) But even if it did, then see the quote from the updated Act, so the transition periods now been extended 2027, so you can import what you like until then.

• On 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024, the UK Government announced it would extend recognition of goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. This means that certain goods that meet EU requirements can be placed on the GB market beyond 31 December 2024. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024. The legislation also provides for a ‘Fast-Track’ UKCA scheme, whereby steps taken towards CE marking will count towards UKCA marking, while UK product safety regulations remain aligned with EU product safety law. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the transition period for UKCA marking until 31 December 2024 and the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this. ↩

And then of course, the second part of the definition of putting into service comes in ,and that only applies a boat which has never been on the UK market before.

 

[ylop]

There are a lot of errors in the above, none of this has anything to do with HRMC, they aren't the prosecuting authority, that is stated in the Act, and it's Trading Standards.

You are stating this like it is a revaluation to me - you should try reading my posts! I’ve asked multiple times but you’ve not replied definitively (so I assume you don’t know) - do U.K. Customs impound goods which don’t meet the regulatory requirements? I know that is common in other jurisdictions.

They don't deal with people buying second hand boats.

Trading standards will investigate if there is a complaint - perhaps most likely after a serious accident.

Hence there has never been a prosecution, and won't be.

That’s great can you send your personal details to the OP to use as an indemnity if he ever finds himself facing a fine… because there is absolutely no guarantee that there won’t be.

Also the first line of the definition of Private importer states,

• If a private importer imports a product that has not previously been placed on the GB market, where the manufacturer has not carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure, the private importer will have to carry out a post construction assessment to demonstrate conformity with the Regulations, as set out in Schedule 5.

So, for a start you would have to import a boat not previously placed on the UK market for any of the above to apply.

Thats right. Thats the whole point of the discussion. But that is referring to an individual boat not a class of boats.

In any case, as per post 3 above, the UK Gov have now accepted if it has EU CE marking that's acceptable. (But none of this applies to punters buying secondhand boats anyway)

But it does to people importing boats for the first time. Whilst RCD shouldn’t actually matter to a subsequent buyer - I assure you it does, and informed buyers will expect to see paperwork or price accordingly.

The question is NOT if it has a CE mark - it is if it has a CE mark (properly) issued under the latest RCD.

But even if it did, then see the quote from the updated Act, so the transition periods now been extended 2027, so you can import what you like until then.

• On 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024, the UK Government announced it would extend recognition of goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. This means that certain goods that meet EU requirements can be placed on the GB market beyond 31 December 2024. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024. The legislation also provides for a ‘Fast-Track’ UKCA scheme, whereby steps taken towards CE marking will count towards UKCA marking, while UK product safety regulations remain aligned with EU product safety law. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the transition period for UKCA marking until 31 December 2024 and the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this. ↩

And then of course, the second part of the definition of putting into service comes in ,and that only applies a boat which has never been on the UK market before.

But you are not understanding what that says (perhaps because you are quoting from a press release rather than the legislation, or perhaps because you are too pig headed to consider for a moment that you might be wrong).

if I thought you were actually interested I’d explain it again for you.

Find definitive proof from a credible source which says that I could go to France and buy say a 2003 Bavaria 32 (CE marked under the 1998 RCD) and sail it back to the UK and be compliant with no changes to the boat or certification costs and I will apologise. I know it seems bonkers that I have that exact model which was imported new 21 years ago and it is legal but its sister ship would not be but that IS the law.

 

[westernman]

You are stating this like it is a revaluation to me - you should try reading my posts! I’ve asked multiple times but you’ve not replied definitively (so I assume you don’t know) - do U.K. Customs impound goods which don’t meet the regulatory requirements? I know that is common in other jurisdictions.

Trading standards will investigate if there is a complaint - perhaps most likely after a serious accident.

That’s great can you send your personal details to the OP to use as an indemnity if he ever finds himself facing a fine… because there is absolutely no guarantee that there won’t be.

Thats right. Thats the whole point of the discussion. But that is referring to an individual boat not a class of boats.

But it does to people importing boats for the first time. Whilst RCD shouldn’t actually matter to a subsequent buyer - I assure you it does, and informed buyers will expect to see paperwork or price accordingly.

The question is NOT if it has a CE mark - it is if it has a CE mark (properly) issued under the latest RCD.

But you are not understanding what that says (perhaps because you are quoting from a press release rather than the legislation, or perhaps because you are too pig headed to consider for a moment that you might be wrong).

if I thought you were actually interested I’d explain it again for you.

Find definitive proof from a credible source which says that I could go to France and buy say a 2003 Bavaria 32 (CE marked under the 1998 RCD) and sail it back to the UK and be compliant with no changes to the boat or certification costs and I will apologise. I know it seems bonkers that I have that exact model which was imported new 21 years ago and it is legal but its sister ship would not be but that IS the law.

But that is referring to an individual boat not a class of boats.
This is the bit he has not understood.

I don't know how compliance is policed. But I do know that customs regularly seize containers of toys and other tat coming from China and send them back because the products are not compliant.

VAT and import duty is assessed by customs - so may be they will not release a boat until it has been made to comply. No idea how this works.

Also I do not know how much wiggle room there is in compliance either.

The only vaguely related reference point I have is a colleague who moved from the USA to France and imported his 3 year old Corvette as part of moving his residence. He had to pass an assessment for compliance. He got away very lightly. He had replaced the indicators with yellow ones and added a fog light. He convinced the assessor that he had done everything reasonably possible to be compliant. He got the piece of paper required and was able to register the car in the normal way (with the normal registration cost of some 800 euros). However, he drove the car up until that time (several months) on Californian license plates and was never once stopped or controlled in anyway. There are many stories of people bringing back cars from the USA same and having to replace the light clusters (several thousand euros), replace all the windows (because the USA ones are not CE marked) and replace the seat belts. As I explained to him, it is always beneficial in France to be very polite, friendly and respectful to civil servants. NB a car such as a Corvette made for the European market actually has a lot of differences to the one sold in the USA (not just lights, windows and seat belts).

I do know that the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Mascotte was able to be MCA Coded (nothing to do with CE marking or RCD) without lifelines which are normally required for coding. The owner was able to convince the assessor that in the particular configuration of his yacht they would actually detract from safety. (I don't know how he did that).

So may be there is some wiggle room if you get the right assessor and not a jobs worth.

 

[nevis768]

You are stating this like it is a revaluation to me - you should try reading my posts! I’ve asked multiple times but you’ve not replied definitively (so I assume you don’t know) - do U.K. Customs impound goods which don’t meet the regulatory requirements? I know that is common in other jurisdictions.

Trading standards will investigate if there is a complaint - perhaps most likely after a serious accident.

That’s great can you send your personal details to the OP to use as an indemnity if he ever finds himself facing a fine… because there is absolutely no guarantee that there won’t be.

Thats right. Thats the whole point of the discussion. But that is referring to an individual boat not a class of boats.

But it does to people importing boats for the first time. Whilst RCD shouldn’t actually matter to a subsequent buyer - I assure you it does, and informed buyers will expect to see paperwork or price accordingly.

The question is NOT if it has a CE mark - it is if it has a CE mark (properly) issued under the latest RCD.

But you are not understanding what that says (perhaps because you are quoting from a press release rather than the legislation, or perhaps because you are too pig headed to consider for a moment that you might be wrong).

if I thought you were actually interested I’d explain it again for you.

Find definitive proof from a credible source which says that I could go to France and buy say a 2003 Bavaria 32 (CE marked under the 1998 RCD) and sail it back to the UK and be compliant with no changes to the boat or certification costs and I will apologise. I know it seems bonkers that I have that exact model which was imported new 21 years ago and it is legal but its sister ship would not be but that IS the law.

What a load of unevidenced nonsense, quote from the Act as I have done instead of posting a load of nonsense. If you think HRMC deal with RCD quote from the Act which supports that.

 

[Tranona]

But that is referring to an individual boat not a class of boats.
This is the bit he has not understood.

I don't know how compliance is policed. But I do know that customs regularly seize containers of toys and other tat coming from China and send them back because the products are not compliant.

VAT and import duty is assessed by customs - so may be they will not release a boat until it has been made to comply. No idea how this works.

Also I do not know how much wiggle room there is in compliance either.

The only vaguely related reference point I have is a colleague who moved from the USA to France and imported his 3 year old Corvette as part of moving his residence. He had to pass an assessment for compliance. He got away very lightly. He had replaced the indicators with yellow ones and added a fog light. He convinced the assessor that he had done everything reasonably possible to be compliant. He got the piece of paper required and was able to register the car in the normal way (with the normal registration cost of some 800 euros). However, he drove the car up until that time (several months) on Californian license plates and was never once stopped or controlled in anyway. There are many stories of people bringing back cars from the USA same and having to replace the light clusters (several thousand euros), replace all the windows (because the USA ones are not CE marked) and replace the seat belts. As I explained to him, it is always beneficial in France to be very polite, friendly and respectful to civil servants. NB a car such as a Corvette made for the European market actually has a lot of differences to the one sold in the USA (not just lights, windows and seat belts).

I do know that the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Mascotte was able to be MCA Coded (nothing to do with CE marking or RCD) without lifelines which are normally required for coding. The owner was able to convince the assessor that in the particular configuration of his yacht they would actually detract from safety. (I don't know how he did that).

So may be there is some wiggle room if you get the right assessor and not a jobs worth.

UK government guidance on the process is here www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain A PCA is required for pre 2017 built boats. The usual procedure is to engage with a Notifying Body to determine what is required to meet the standards, agree a schedule of works and on satisfactory completion a Certificate of Conformity is issued.

 

[Tranona]

What a load of unevidenced nonsense, quote from the Act as I have done instead of posting a load of nonsense. If you think HRMC deal with RCD quote from the Act which supports that.

You may be "quoting from the Act" but it does not say what you think it says - or want it to say. I have just posted the government guidance on the subject (yet again!). please read it carefully and if you have any skills of comprehension you will see why you are wrong in what you claim.