Tax not applicable...how can it be ??

[ylop]

What a load of unevidenced nonsense, quote from the Act as I have done instead of posting a load of nonsense. If you think HRMC deal with RCD quote from the Act which supports that.

I don’t think you have actually quoted from the act (not least because it is a Statutory Instrument not an Act!) - most of your quotes are from a .gov guidance document. However I did quote the exact section of the Regulations (s36) that clearly apply to Private Importers in a previous post which you ignored and continued to say doesn’t apply to individuals.

Trading standards do impound incoming goods which are not to U.K. legal requirements. I don’t know how they come to know where to find them - but I’m going to remain of the view that it’s likely customs inform them in some way, unless someone can explain differently. They rarely prosecute anyone, so hardly surprising RCR prosecutions are unheard of - but if they have the power to impound a non-compliant import that’s potentially worse than prosecution. In reality there are very few people illicitly importing old yachts hence no cases.

 

[westernman]

Also, if what you say was correct then somebody buying a second hand Bav 350 in France would have to have it certified,

Only if they were going to import it to the UK. Which they would only do if they were resident in the UK and moving the boat to the UK.

but somebody buying the same second hand boat in Southampton would not need to do so.

Yes.

Really? What a load of nonsense.

Really. Yes. That is the way the legislation is written.

It has always been very difficult to import older boats e.g. from the USA into the UK or EU.
They always have had to comply with the latest version of the standards and not those in effect at the time the boat was built.

All that has changed is that you now have to import an EU boat into the UK and go through the same hoops as if it were being imported from the USA.

The ironic twist is that the UKCA certification requirements are currently exactly the same as the EU ones.

 

[nevis768]

Only if they were going to import it to the UK. Which they would only do if they were resident in the UK and moving the boat to the UK.


Yes.

Really. Yes. That is the way the legislation is written.

It has always been very difficult to import older boats e.g. from the USA into the UK or EU.
They always have had to comply with the latest version of the standards and not those in effect at the time the boat was built.

All that has changed is that you now have to import an EU boat into the UK and go through the same hoops as if it were being imported from the USA.

The ironic twist is that the UKCA certification requirements are currently exactly the same as the EU ones.

More nonsense, support your answer with the legislation, instead of the glib comment yes, that is the way legislation is written, what exactly does that absolute tosh mean?

 

[Tranona]

More nonsense, support your answer with the legislation, instead of the glib comment yes, that is the way legislation is written, what exactly does that absolute tosh mean?

It means exactly what it says. You have been directed to both the legislation and the government guidance that supports it.

Nobody can help you if you are incapable of reading it and understanding what it says.

 

[nevis768]

I don’t think you have actually quoted from the act (not least because it is a Statutory Instrument not an Act!) - most of your quotes are from a .gov guidance document. However I did quote the exact section of the Regulations (s36) that clearly apply to Private Importers in a previous post which you ignored and continued to say doesn’t apply to individuals.

Trading standards do impound incoming goods which are not to U.K. legal requirements. I don’t know how they come to know where to find them - but I’m going to remain of the view that it’s likely customs inform them in some way, unless someone can explain differently. They rarely prosecute anyone, so hardly surprising RCR prosecutions are unheard of - but if they have the power to impound a non-compliant import that’s potentially worse than prosecution. In reality there are very few people illicitly importing old yachts hence no cases.

I see you don't know what a Statutory Instrument is, it is part of our legislation and allows Acts to be updated without going through parliament every time there is minor change. So, here is the change, defined by the Statutory instrument, which has put UKCA marking etc on hold until 2027,
Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

Re Private Importer, I did respond to that but I don't think you are able to understand it....... Private importer also has a definition in the Act, which includes the phrase putting into service, this also has definition in the Act.
“putting into service” means the first use of a product in the [F19market of Great Britain] by its end-user and related expressions are to be construed accordingly;

So you can see Private importers is defined as a person....putting the first use of the product in the GB market. This is clearly not a punter buying a second hand boat for his own use. (not likely to be first use in any case, and not going on the market) By the way, there's the clue its not targetting people buying secondhand boats.
F19 above is then linked in the Act footnote to the explanatory para showing this has all been delayed in any case until 2027. Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

This is about the sixth time I have posted the link to the legislation, so here's what it says as you or Tranona don't seem to be able to understand it,

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.
• On 1 August 2023 and 24 January 2024, the UK Government announced it would extend recognition of goods that meet EU requirements (including the CE marking), indefinitely, beyond 2024 for many products. This means that certain goods that meet EU requirements can be placed on the GB market beyond 31 December 2024. The Product Safety and Metrology etc. (Amendment) Regulations 2024 give effect to this and came into force on 1 October 2024. The legislation also provides for a ‘Fast-Track’ UKCA scheme, whereby steps taken towards CE marking will count towards UKCA marking, while UK product safety regulations remain aligned with EU product safety law.

In other words, if the imported yacht has a CE mark then that's fine until 2027 when UK certification might or mightn't start.

 

[ylop]

I see you don't know what a Statutory Instrument is, it is part of our legislation and allows Acts to be updated without going through parliament every time there is minor change.

I assure you I know exactly what an SI is. It is NOT an Act, despite you repeatedly calling it one. Of course it is legislation, and in this case creates regulations but importantly, unlike an Act, has not had the scrutiny of parliamentary process where the anomaly Tranona and others have tried to explain to you may have come to light and been resolved.

So you can see Private importers is defined as a person....putting the first use of the product in the GB market. This is clearly not a punter buying a second hand boat for his own use.

That is EXACTLY what it is - a person bring a boat into Great Britain for the first time to use for himself.

(not likely to be first use in any case, and not going on the market) By the way, there's the clue its not targetting people buying secondhand boats.
F19 above is then linked in the Act footnote to the explanatory para showing this has all been delayed in any case until 2027. Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain

This is about the sixth time I have posted the link to the legislation,

Yeah you don’t need to keep posting the links - we all know what the legislation says! However that’s not the legislation it’s a guidance note. The legislation is here: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

The regulations are in force today. S86A has been ammended to deal with the changes to deadline (actually it looks like the 2027 date has now been removed to make it open ended) - but that was only a requirement for manufacurers to put a UKCA mark on boats - it wasn’t freedom to import boats that didn’t meet the required standard.

In other words, if the imported yacht has a CE mark then that's fine until 2027 when UK certification might or mightn't start.

No. As you have been repeatedly told, the RCD was updated in 2013 (and became enforced in the U.K. in 2017). Let’s call those “oldRCD” (1998 rules) and “newRCD” (post 2013 rules). A boat with a CE mark declares conformity to either the oldRCD or the newRCD. It’s not as simple as having a CE mark it has to be declaring the newRCD conformity to permit the easy import to GB in the post Brexit era. What people have been repeatedly telling you is that (a) boats built before 1998 have no CE mark, and (b) boats built to the pre 2013 regs do not have the relevant mark (and the transition period between the two directives means it is likely later than 2013 before boats started using them - it wasn’t required here until 2017).

 

[nevis768]

I assure you I know exactly what an SI is. It is NOT an Act, despite you repeatedly calling it one. Of course it is legislation, and in this case creates regulations but importantly, unlike an Act, has not had the scrutiny of parliamentary process where the anomaly Tranona and others have tried to explain to you may have come to light and been resolved.

That is EXACTLY what it is - a person bring a boat into Great Britain for the first time to use for himself.


Yeah you don’t need to keep posting the links - we all know what the legislation says! However that’s not the legislation it’s a guidance note. The legislation is here: The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

The regulations are in force today. S86A has been ammended to deal with the changes to deadline (actually it looks like the 2027 date has now been removed to make it open ended) - but that was only a requirement for manufacurers to put a UKCA mark on boats - it wasn’t freedom to import boats that didn’t meet the required standard.



No. As you have been repeatedly told, the RCD was updated in 2013 (and became enforced in the U.K. in 2017). Let’s call those “oldRCD” (1998 rules) and “newRCD” (post 2013 rules). A boat with a CE mark declares conformity to either the oldRCD or the newRCD. It’s not as simple as having a CE mark it has to be declaring the newRCD conformity to permit the easy import to GB in the post Brexit era. What people have been repeatedly telling you is that (a) boats built before 1998 have no CE mark, and (b) boats built to the pre 2013 regs do not have the relevant mark (and the transition period between the two directives means it is likely later than 2013 before boats started using them - it wasn’t required here until 2017).

More absolute garbage, so a person buying a second hand boat in France for himself and bringing it to the UK is not the first use of the product in the UK. End of story. The legislation states use of the product on the UK, NOT that product. No prosecutions ever, and never will be.
Think I do need to post the link, you don't understand it.
Do you think Statutory Instruments are just produced for fun? Time you got life mate.

 

[Tranona]

More garbage, so a person buying a second hand boat in France for himself and bringing it to the UK is not the first use of the product in the UK. End of story. No prosecutions ever, and never will be.
Think I do need to post the link, you dont understand it.

Absolutely wrong. That was generally true before 31/12/2020 when the UK separated from the EU and established its own regulatory regime

 

[nevis768]

Absolutely wrong. That was generally true before 31/12/2020 when the UK separated from the EU and established its own regulatory regime

Post the legislation not your opinion.

 

[ylop]

Post the legislation not your opinion.

You posted the legislation. You have a comprehension problem not a different document.

When presented with the correct facts you simply resort to calling it rubbish. Why does s36 of the act exist if it is not to control exactly the circumstance we are outlining - the private importation of a vessel for one’s own use?

36.—(1) If a manufacturer has not complied with the manufacturer’s obligations under this Part, a private importer must ensure, before putting a product into service, that—

(a)the product has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements; and

(b)the obligations of the manufacturer under the following regulations have been met or carried out in relation to the product—

(i)regulation 9 (technical documentation and conformity assessment);

(ii)regulation 10 [F1(declaration of conformity and UK marking)];

(iii)regulation 11 (duty of manufacturers to retain technical documentation and F2... declaration of conformity); and

(iv)regulation 22 (instructions and safety information).

(2) A private importer must also carry out or have carried out any obligation to provide information and co-operation imposed on a manufacturer pursuant to regulation 17 (provision of information and co-operation).

(3) Where the technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, a private importer must have this documentation drawn up using appropriate expertise.

(4) The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the [F3approved] body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product under regulation 9(1)(a) is marked on the product.

 

[nevis768]

You posted the legislation. You have a comprehension problem not a different document.

When presented with the correct facts you simply resort to calling it rubbish. Why does s36 of the act exist if it is not to control exactly the circumstance we are outlining - the private importation of a vessel for one’s own use?

36.—(1) If a manufacturer has not complied with the manufacturer’s obligations under this Part, a private importer must ensure, before putting a product into service, that—

(a)the product has been designed and manufactured in accordance with the essential requirements; and

(b)the obligations of the manufacturer under the following regulations have been met or carried out in relation to the product—

(i)regulation 9 (technical documentation and conformity assessment);

(ii)regulation 10 [F1(declaration of conformity and UK marking)];

(iii)regulation 11 (duty of manufacturers to retain technical documentation and F2... declaration of conformity); and

(iv)regulation 22 (instructions and safety information).

(2) A private importer must also carry out or have carried out any obligation to provide information and co-operation imposed on a manufacturer pursuant to regulation 17 (provision of information and co-operation).

(3) Where the technical documentation is not available from the manufacturer, a private importer must have this documentation drawn up using appropriate expertise.

(4) The private importer must ensure that the name and postal address of the [F3approved] body that carried out the relevant conformity assessment procedure in relation to the product under regulation 9(1)(a) is marked on the product.

Sorry Guv, I don't think you have a clue, you were calling the prosecution authority for this HRMC when it is Trading Standards. They do not deal with punters buying second hand boats,-trading standards deal with importers/ manufacturers or those who sell counterfeit. They do not deal with people buying second hand goods.

And as above this legislation is now in abeyance until 2027.Here's the intro to the Act which tells you who it is aimed at, so sorry, it's not Punters buying second hand boats. Why do you think UK legislators have done an introduction telling you who it applies to. Do you think it is to mislead you by stating it is about manufacturers when as you say it is about second hand boats? Lol, I've heard it all now.
This Guide is designed to help you understand The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017, as they apply in GB (referred to in this document as “The 2017 Regulations”). The 2017 Regulations set out the requirements that must be met before products can be placed on the GB market. The purpose of the legislation is to ensure safe products are placed on the GB market by requiring manufacturers to show how their products meet the ‘essential requirements’.

So what's this about, it's about products being put on the UK market, for the first time, by manufacturers, end of story. You and others are obviously in the Trade and not keen on people buying boats abroad.
I've got an 82 Danish boat are you seriously trying to tell me trading Standards are going to come down to my mooring to check if I have a CE mark, you're having a laugh....

 

[ylop]

More absolute garbage, so a person buying a second hand boat in France for himself and bringing it to the UK is not the first use of the product in the UK. End of story. The legislation states use of the product on the UK, NOT that product.

You don’t understand how the conformity assessment works. The assessment is on an individual hull basis not the design. Ask yourself why s12 of the regulations exists. S49 of the regulations defines a process for type approval - that defined “product type” which is all vessels of the same design manufactured to the same process - if the private import rules meant “first use of a product of that product type” that is what they would say. Conformity assessments show individual HINs.

No prosecutions ever, and never will be.

And yet there is legislation with the theoretical potential for a prison sentence. I’m not suggesting that is likely for a private importer who stupidly followed advice on an internet forum, but the investigation costs can also be applied by a court so even a small fine could end up bankrupting someone. Much more likely it never goes to court because if the enforcement authority find an irregularity they are required (not just empowered) to prevent the vessel’s use - presumably impound it? For many old boats the cost of recovering from that situation is probably so high that they would simply be forfeited. However a belligerent key board carrier insisting they were right might just find that the prosecuting authority decides it wants to make a point.

Think I do need to post the link, you don't understand it.
Do you think Statutory Instruments are just produced for fun?

No, but you don’t post to the “act” you post to a guidance note. Then shout about “the Act” when the relevant legislation is not an Act.

Time you got life mate.

I’m not your mate! I actually have no interest in whether you ever admit you are wrong - but I do think it is important that the facts are correct so a future naive buyer reading this thread is not misled by your attacks on those correctly describing the reality.

What you could do - instead of arguing on here is ask your local trading standards to confirm in writing that your interpretation of the law is correct. Good luck.

 

[Beneteau381]

You don’t understand how the conformity assessment works. The assessment is on an individual hull basis not the design. Ask yourself why s12 of the regulations exists. S49 of the regulations defines a process for type approval - that defined “product type” which is all vessels of the same design manufactured to the same process - if the private import rules meant “first use of a product of that product type” that is what they would say. Conformity assessments show individual HINs.

And yet there is legislation with the theoretical potential for a prison sentence. I’m not suggesting that is likely for a private importer who stupidly followed advice on an internet forum, but the investigation costs can also be applied by a court so even a small fine could end up bankrupting someone. Much more likely it never goes to court because if the enforcement authority find an irregularity they are required (not just empowered) to prevent the vessel’s use - presumably impound it? For many old boats the cost of recovering from that situation is probably so high that they would simply be forfeited. However a belligerent key board carrier insisting they were right might just find that the prosecuting authority decides it wants to make a point.

No, but you don’t post to the “act” you post to a guidance note. Then shout about “the Act” when the relevant legislation is not an Act.

I’m not your mate! I actually have no interest in whether you ever admit you are wrong - but I do think it is important that the facts are correct so a future naive buyer reading this thread is not misled by your attacks on those correctly describing the reality.

What you could do - instead of arguing on here is ask your local trading standards to confirm in writing that your interpretation of the law is correct. Good luck.

Best of luck finding a Trading Standards Officer to engage with!

 

[billskip]

However a belligerent key board carrier insisting they were right

Trouble is...who?

 

[Tranona]

Trouble is...who?

I think that is pretty obvious.

 

[nevis768]

You don’t understand how the conformity assessment works. The assessment is on an individual hull basis not the design. Ask yourself why s12 of the regulations exists. S49 of the regulations defines a process for type approval - that defined “product type” which is all vessels of the same design manufactured to the same process - if the private import rules meant “first use of a product of that product type” that is what they would say. Conformity assessments show individual HINs.

And yet there is legislation with the theoretical potential for a prison sentence. I’m not suggesting that is likely for a private importer who stupidly followed advice on an internet forum, but the investigation costs can also be applied by a court so even a small fine could end up bankrupting someone. Much more likely it never goes to court because if the enforcement authority find an irregularity they are required (not just empowered) to prevent the vessel’s use - presumably impound it? For many old boats the cost of recovering from that situation is probably so high that they would simply be forfeited. However a belligerent key board carrier insisting they were right might just find that the prosecuting authority decides it wants to make a point.

No, but you don’t post to the “act” you post to a guidance note. Then shout about “the Act” when the relevant legislation is not an Act.

I’m not your mate! I actually have no interest in whether you ever admit you are wrong - but I do think it is important that the facts are correct so a future naive buyer reading this thread is not misled by your attacks on those correctly describing the reality.

What you could do - instead of arguing on here is ask your local trading standards to confirm in writing that your interpretation of the law is correct. Good luck.

Q Hello, is that Trading Standards
A Yes, how can I help?
Q Can I speak to the person who deals with buying second hand yachts?
A I think you have the wrong number?
Q Tranona and Ylop tell me that you prosecute people who buy yachts from abroad, so I was just wanting some information about that?
A This is Trading standards, are you trying to get Customs?
Q No, it's your yacht department I want, whoever deals with yachts
A Ah, is it dangerous toy yachts that explode?
Q No
A Ah, the toy ones that go on fire, Lithium batteries, they've caused a few problems?
Q No, its proper big yachts bought second hand from France.
A Is it an eBay fraud?
Q No
A Facebook marketplace?
Q No, seemingly you can come down the Marina and seize them, put the owner in jail and then charge him costs?
A Is it to do with illegal immigration? Maybe Border Force you want?
Q No, its just buying one from there, is that ok?
A Dunno mate, very much up to you, I would like to get one myself. But we just deal with people who sell dodgy stuff, you know. Fake watches, and trainers.
Q Think we have been at cross purposes, have you heard of the Regional Craft Directive 2017?
A Can't say I have. Hold on I'll ask my colleague.....Yes, we can help with that, these were Chinese Craft kits which injured a number of people in 2017.
Q Ok, thanks very much, I'll pass your details on to my friends in YBW



Happy New Year

 

[Tranona]

Q Hello, is that Trading Standards
A Yes, how can I help?
Q Can I speak to the person who deals with buying second hand yachts?
A I think you have the wrong number?
Q Tranona and Ylop tell me that you prosecute people who buy yachts from abroad, so I was just wanting some information about that?
A This is Trading standards, are you trying to get Customs?
Q No, it's your yacht department I want, whoever deals with yachts
A Ah, is it dangerous toy yachts that explode?
Q No
A Ah, the toy ones that go on fire, Lithium batteries, they've caused a few problems?
Q No, its proper big yachts bought second hand from France.
A Is it an eBay fraud?
Q No
A Facebook marketplace?
Q No, seemingly you can come down the Marina and seize them, put the owner in jail and then charge him costs?
A Is it to do with illegal immigration? Maybe Border Force you want?
Q No, its just buying one from there, is that ok?
A Dunno mate, very much up to you, I would like to get one myself. But we just deal with people who sell dodgy stuff, you know. Fake watches, and trainers.
Q Think we have been at cross purposes, have you heard of the Regional Craft Directive 2017?
A Can't say I have. Hold on I'll ask my colleague.....Yes, we can help with that, these were Chinese Craft kits which injured a number of people in 2017.
Q Ok, thanks very much, I'll pass your details on to my friends in YBW



Happy New Year

You really do have a vivid imagination - maybe too much alcoholic celebration for the New Year.

Don't recall anybody claiming that Trading Standards have been prosecuting people - just stating that the law allows them to and that there are penalties including prison for breaking the law. It is a criminal offence. Trading Standards respond to complaints and do prosecute if they find any breaches of regulations.

What you fail to understand is that any intelligent person considering importing a boat into the UK would likely do their own research and probably come to the conclusion that the difficulties outweigh the perceived benefits. As a result the only people that attempt it are those who are sure (as in the examples that have been given to you) that they can meet the requirements.

However, those of us who have long memories and were around when this legislation was introduced in 1998 will be able to tell you about incidents where boats were impounded because the owners had failed to acquaint themselves with the new legislative regime. All this was well covered in the press at the time and within a couple of years it became yesterday's news as people adjusted to the new rules.

It is no different now. The law on imports in respect of VAT and Certification are clear, even if the implementation of the latter has been less than clear perhaps because of the lack of cases. The economic barriers are so great that few would get past that and have to consider how to meet Certification.

So in reality this is a non issue. The only thing that is important is that people considering importing a boat understand the legislation and it is not helpful for people such as you to suggest that it is different from what it actually is.

Hopefully any intelligent person can see through your ramblings as it is clear that in all the time you have been peddling your nonsense, not one person has supported your position.

 

[gaylord694]

Post the legislation not your opinion.

He seems to be very good at posting his opinion and being very rude to people at the same time ............. Like I've said before how wonderful it must be for these individuals to know everything about everything I wish I'd tried harder at school that's for sure

 

[nevis768]

You really do have a vivid imagination - maybe too much alcoholic celebration for the New Year.

Don't recall anybody claiming that Trading Standards have been prosecuting people - just stating that the law allows them to and that there are penalties including prison for breaking the law. It is a criminal offence. Trading Standards respond to complaints and do prosecute if they find any breaches of regulations.

What you fail to understand is that any intelligent person considering importing a boat into the UK would likely do their own research and probably come to the conclusion that the difficulties outweigh the perceived benefits. As a result the only people that attempt it are those who are sure (as in the examples that have been given to you) that they can meet the requirements.

However, those of us who have long memories and were around when this legislation was introduced in 1998 will be able to tell you about incidents where boats were impounded because the owners had failed to acquaint themselves with the new legislative regime. All this was well covered in the press at the time and within a couple of years it became yesterday's news as people adjusted to the new rules.

It is no different now. The law on imports in respect of VAT and Certification are clear, even if the implementation of the latter has been less than clear perhaps because of the lack of cases. The economic barriers are so great that few would get past that and have to consider how to meet Certification.

So in reality this is a non issue. The only thing that is important is that people considering importing a boat understand the legislation and it is not helpful for people such as you to suggest that it is different from what it actually is.

Hopefully any intelligent person can see through your ramblings as it is clear that in all the time you have been peddling your nonsense, not one person has supported your position.

The Legislators have supported my position, and you've completely failed to demonstrate from the Act how this applies to buying second hand yacht abroad. Hence there are no prosecutions, and it is quite obvious from the updated legislation that there won't be.

• On 20 June 2022, the Government announced the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling would be extended until 31 December 2025. On 14 November 2022 the Government announced it would be extending the provisions for UKCA labelling and importer labelling until 31 December 2027. The Product Safety and Metrology (Amendment and Transitional Provisions) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022/1393) give effect to this.

Are we all agreed now following this legislation that CE marked boats don't require the re- certification you keep banging on about?

 

[nevis768]

He seems to be very good at posting his opinion and being very rude to people at the same time ............. Like I've said before nevis how wonderful it must be for these individuals to know everything about everything I wish I'd tried harder at school that's for sure

Hello Gaylord

You've had a sheltered life if you think that's rude. Can you explain how that's rude, so I don't upset any more sensitive people?