Sunseeker Stand - Southampton Boat Show 2021

[MapisM]

which Italian engine manufacturer are the Italian builders fitting at the moment

FPT is the obvious answer.
But by the same token, I could have said also Caterpillar...

 

[ShaneAtSea]

Buy an American boat if Florida’s your destination.
Buy an Italian ( Ferretti group ) VAT free and consider the Med near a none EU state for a base .

I wouldn’t hang your hat on the U.K. “ John Lewis “ factor AND pay more , taxes + del to export a U.K. builders boat to the States or Med .

FG group have been pushing real hard on Noise Vibrations and Harshness (NVH ) + quality of fit n finish .
They employ a special tech centre across the group some 200 employees and the fruits of there labour filter throughout the brands .

It a kinda Louis Vuitton factor .
Let me explain this LV factor from a Chinese POV in terms of market position and perception.
Takes a bit of getting your head round and I expect flack from the usual suspects on here

A 1/3 rd of the world’s economy population recognises the quality of genuine LV stuff and a few of them covert that LV effect .
A tiny % want the real thing .But a tiny % of a 1/3 rd of the world’s population number is a big number too !
Crucially although they on one hand make cheap reproductions to sell to the RoW, to generate cash , they buy the real bag + headscarfs for themselves.
Its ironic they manufacture crap to generate cash but for themselves , but the” % “only want the best .
A lot of Ferretti brands end up in China and the owner(s) are majoring on quality the LV effect for the top echelon of Chinese.

They (Chinese ) do make cheaper boats of course for the masses at a price , but for the “% “ the FG brand is the one .
That’s the driver of the quality up from he FG owners perspective .

Was explained to me at a Monaco preview a year ago back by a Chinese guy while I tried to critique the build of a Riva / Itama / Pershing .I failed btw .

I noticed a huge step up in terms of fit n finish , NVH as we went out on test drives .

Another tech feature they ALL are painted even the Ferretti beige theses days .This is because of the well documented hazards with Vac infusion and quality control .Clear resin apparently you can see defects that would otherwise be hidden and get through if the gel coat was coloured .This is an example of the across the range QC . No liners used either .

Engines mounted on fluid vibration damper mounts to reduce NVH …..across the range .Think electric rheogenic type like in high end cars ??
^^^ no way you can feel that benefit at a standing boat show , bit late to feel the engines of a “ John Lewis “ spec U.K. boat throbbing away in the marina after handing over £X M cheque isn’t it ?

“ John Lewis “ Pah ! far too low to aim for .The competition has gone up to the LV factor .

But you need to know what you are looking for and feeling when it’s running .

Maybe my John Lewis analogy wasnt fantastic but i generally use this forum from my phone so typing long dissections of comments can be a bit limited.

I'll try another one....and tin of beans in Waitrose cost £1 but in Tesco its 50p.....people know its cheaper but they like shopping in Waitrose.

Its about the brand and what it represents.

Like people who use British Gas.....its expensive but its a brand they trust.

I wasnt slagging off Sunseeker & Princess. The M55 & F55 are currently in my Top 10 shopping list. I was saying that there is factor of paying for a recognised brand. Also, we all know that manufacturing in the UK is expensive and thats why a lot of boat builders are moving operations to places like Turkey and Taiwan.

As far as keeping the boat in Florida. We like Florida and are currently looking to get our green cards.

 

[MapisM]

I could be cruel and use your analogy to say that Sunseeker are Chinese owned but the reality is they are also thoroughly British with a great heritage and well put together.

That wouldn't be anywhere as cruel as mentioning the X95 as an example of "British design process"...

 

[henryf]

FPT is the obvious answer.
But by the same token, I could have said also Caterpillar...

I’ve never seen a boat with an FPT engine. In fact I’ve never heard them.

I would have thought Caterpillar were American but there you go. That famous Italian brand. It might explain why Sirenna stopped fitting CAT engines in favour of Volvo because they were having too many problems with the electronics.

 

[henryf]

That wouldn't be anywhere as cruel as mentioning the X95 as an example of "British design process"...

The X95 is an exercise in internal volume. It doesn’t represent the direction Princess are going but an offshoot followed by a number of builders.

Princess still have their S class and more elegant Y class product.

 

[henryf]

Just Googled FTP and apparently they’re French not Italian.

 

[MapisM]

A bit touchy on Princess, I see.
Feel free to consider it as a "luxury brand" if that's relevant to you, but the reality is that it isn't, in the overall pleasure boat industry landscape.
Though everything in life is relative, of course.
It certainly is when compared to Beneateau or whatever...

Ref. Cat being a famous Italian brand, I didn't say the brand is Italian.
I said that their engines (well, some of them anyway, like those used by Safehaven Marine for instance) are Italian - just try harder with Google.
But you'd better use "FPT" rather than "FTP", which is likely to bring you to webpages related to the file transfer protocol...

 

[MapisM]

Sirenna stopped fitting CAT engines in favour of Volvo because they were having too many problems with the electronics.

ROTFL, talk about jumping from the frying pan straight into the fire! ?

 

[henryf]

A bit touchy on Princess, I see.
Feel free to consider it as a "luxury brand" if that's relevant to you, but the reality is that it isn't, in the overall pleasure boat industry landscape.
Though everything in life is relative, of course.
It certainly is when compared to Beneateau or whatever...

Ref. Cat being a famous Italian brand, I didn't say the brand is Italian.
I said that their engines (well, some of them anyway, like those used by Safehaven Marine for instance) are Italian - just try harder with Google.
But you'd better use "FPT" rather than "FTP", which is likely to bring you to webpages related to the file transfer protocol...

I’m dyslexic so please forgive any typing errors made. I do spell check everything but initials like that come up as an error all the time.

None the less they come up as a French company. I specifically asked for Italian engine builders to counter the argument that Princess weren’t British because they fitted non British engines.

I am aware of FTP protocol from way back in 1998 when I built our first website and the little terrapin used to amble across the screen.

I don’t think I’m being touchy. Some bloke posted an essay about how the Chinese buy Louis Vuitton clobber because they appreciate luxury and craftsmanship. He then argued that for the same reason they buy Ferretti.

The fact is Princess are part of the same group who own Louis Vuitton. Ferretti aren’t.

I don’t make the rules or control who the luxury brand moguls put on their pedestals. They fact is LVMH put Princess in the same room as LV.

 

[henryf]

ROTFL, talk about jumping from the frying pan straight into the fire! ?

Do please enlighten me as to the problems with the latest generation of D13 engines. I’m all ears…..

 

[MapisM]

I was actually referring to your comment on problems with electronics in general, 'cause VP in the last decade or so developed quite a reputation with that.
Certainly more than Cat anyway, whose most crucial issue with marine engines lately - i.e. leaking CACs, with catastrophic consequences in many cases - is strictly mechanical, and allegedly related to poor welding quality. Which of course has nothing to see with electronics.
Back to VP, I can't recall anything specifically related to D13s, but I personally witnessed serial faults of D6 ECUs, also in very recent boats.
A fault which - aside from leaving you drifting wherever it happens, usually out of the blue - is eyewateringly expensive to fix.

 

[MapisM]

None the less they come up as a French company.

Well, they are not.
The fact that the FPT acronym comes from "Fiat Power Train" gives a hint about the Company origin.
They do have a plant in France though, which I think is one of their largest and more modern ones - I guess that's the reason why you found that.
But they have many production plants, a dozen of so IIRC, in several Countries.
Most of them in IT (R&D included, in Turin), but also in China and South America, off the top of my head.

 

[henryf]

Glad to hear the current D13 engine is good and I’ve still never heard of FPT or seen them fitted to any boat I’ve considered buying.

Just for reference I think they are badged Iveco in the UK. Which still doesn’t help as I’ve never seen an Iveco engine fitted to any boat I was looking to buy.

Iveco did fly me out to Bologna / Ferrari for a few days several years ago which was nice.

 

[Portofino]

Yes the irony is not lost on H . .
Princess have not kept up pace relative to others FG + arguably Sunseeker with the quality beneath the surface .
He ( Arnot ) bought Prinny to puncture the imagery around the existing French boat builders quality.Which let’s face it mirrors French cars .
Its just not worked out that’s the point .How long now 10-15 yrs down the line .Aquired the ex military yard next door for upsizing to take the brand upwards into San Lorenzo , Benetti , CRN and beyond …….It’s not happened .Arguably as MapisM infers it’s flopped big time .No matter how you describe it , a aspiring boat builder going backwards in sizing is embarrassing.
The French do or have done adopted Princess yachts are there upmarket brand , no doubt about that .

But as said carry on arguing that a big Peugeot or Citroen is the luxuary car to aspire to .Or sporty car .
There is nothing wrong with them they are what they are , positioned in the market .

Big Question is how frenchified in terms of quality have they evolved ? In this sector sunk to !

But the Italian ( what’s left ) builders are ahead .No veneered teak etc chunky deck gear quality oozes out .

Remember FG are into steel and Aluminium and as I already mentioned are arguably moulding the best plastic boats .
Princess should be knocking out knockout boats from there huge dry dock like this by now …..but they aren’t.

What went wrong , why did they not up sell enough and ease there loyal existing owners up into boats like this by now ?

The devil is in the details .

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

As for pricing, I was at Cannes specifically to investigate non British builders. Let’s see where we end up putting our money. Oh yes, unlike most of the keyboard warriors we’re getting the cheque book out.

I work in the industry and I am not saying Princess is a bad boat, but its pricing has no substance. That is all.
All boats are hand build, even a Jeanneau and Beneteau is hand build. 3D printing is still in its infancy, it is coming but we are at the least ten years to see its results.
As for the components being British beside the engines, you should start checking deeper then you think.
Yes the engines are German or American, though the smaller Cats are actually FPT Iveco nowadays.

It is interesting that LMVH while it is the owner they never actually mention Princess Maisons LVMH - High-end ready-to-wear, fine products – LVMH

As for you getting out the cheque book, surely you can do whatever you want, waving it in a forum does not ooze a lot of class though.

 

[henryf]

Why does a boat have to be big to be considered luxury?

Channel, Tiffany and Cartier all seem to manage to pack luxury and craftsmanship into small packages.

Princess have a size that works for them. They can make money and compete strongly in their chosen arena. I want to buy a decent mid 50 something foot boat, I have no interest in 150 foot boats. If I do really well in life I might want to upgrade to a 75 or 85 footer. Princess can still service my needs. I don't want to spend my whole life managing crew and filling out paperwork. I want to be spontaneous. I want to be an owner operator.

I've visited Sunseeker but never Princess so I can't confirm but I think they've got some skilled workers able to go beyond Ikea's flat pack product but who knows maybe I'm wrong.

When I looked round the Ferretti 550 I didn't think wow, this is what I aspire to and what I wish Princess were building. Stuff like the edges on this leather work rather annoyed me.



The steering wheel was too vertical, the flybridge stairs looked a crude, the flybridge helm made even Sirenna's cereal box look slick, the stainless work on the flybridge looked clunky and so on. Maybe it's just me. But when I was pulling a Princess F55 apart the other day poking around all the service areas I though how nicely put together it was. Stuff that was supposed to clipped on and off did just that, the engine room was a really well finished with everything run properly, labeled and so on. I'm not sure what I'm missing?

When I was at Cannes it was those things that let other builders down. Batteries just sitting there on a shelf not boxed in for protection or gas venting.

 

[henryf]

I work in the industry and I am not saying Princess is a bad boat, but its pricing has no substance. That is all.
All boats are hand build, even a Jeanneau and Beneteau is hand build. 3D printing is still in its infancy, it is coming but we are at the least ten years to see its results.
As for the components being British beside the engines, you should start checking deeper then you think.
Yes the engines are German or American, though the smaller Cats are actually FPT Iveco nowadays.

It is interesting that LMVH while it is the owner they never actually mention Princess Maisons LVMH - High-end ready-to-wear, fine products – LVMH

As for you getting out the cheque book, surely you can do whatever you want, waving it in a forum does not ooze a lot of class though.

I'm fully aware that many components come from overseas but the design and build is fundamentally British. It's put together in a shed in Plymouth (or Poole in the case of Sunseeker), not some exotic land where everyone scoots round on Vespas and sips expresso. They eat Greggs sausage rolls and take their partners out for Nandos or a Wagamama . I don't know but I think the Pininfarina input is to influence the in house design rather than replace it.

My comment of getting the cheque book out wasn't meant in any way as a boast, crikey I'd be something of a muppet coming onto a boating forum trying to play the big I am when buying the third smallest boat someone makes in a field where the real players talk metres not lowly feet. It was meant to say that I'm going through a selection process which will end up with a big bill, so I am VERY much focused on price and value for money. I'm not just carping on about some theoretical hyperbole.

When you say "it's pricing has no substance" what exactly do you mean? Am I missing something here, because I flew out to Cannes and looked at a load of boats, I then went round the Southampton boat show and did the same thing. Nowhere did I find 55 foot flybridge boats for a few hundred thousand pounds. All the boats I looked at in Cannes were as expensive or even more expensive than Princess and Sunseeker and I found them lacking in different aspects. So where are all these bargain boats I haven't found?

To focus the mind still further we have a boat that works really well and does everything asked of it so I'm not some newbie looking around wide eyed itching to get out on the water. Keeping the current boat has a net cost of zero.

 

[MapisM]

It's put together in a shed in Plymouth (...), not some exotic land where everyone scoots round on Vespas and sips expresso.

Exotic land?
Do you mean the one whose citizens built the Colosseum before coming to develop London, which practically didn't exist because in those days the largest UK town, as I recall, was Colchester?

Besides, you previously said "The factory is in Plymouth where foreigners won’t be able to understand a word the locals say".
What you actually meant was "...neither foreigners nor Brits would be able to understand...", surely?

 

[MapisM]

They can make money

If they really can, they must be good at hiding it, 'cause their P&L tells a different story.

 

[MapisM]

Glad to hear the current D13 engine is good

Talk about understanding what you like/hope to be told.
I just said, literally: "I can't recall anything specifically related to D13s".
But also that I do have horror stories about electronics in another VP engine, which btw happens to be by far their most popular.
Feel free to do of that what you wish.
As well as of the fact that Cat decided to source FPT engines and put their name on them, rather than develop their own.
I'm neither selling engines nor boats.