Should you be frightened by a survey?

[DaveParry]

Okay, so we saw a boat we liked, and got a survey arranged. I don't know what we should have expected, but it's depressing reading it when you get it back! You get all excited about buying your first sailing boat (Atlantic 28), and then you have to read someone telling you all the things that are wrong. That's what we paid for I suppose.

But how much should we take with a pinch of salt? I mean these guys have to put something in right? We are grateful for the list of little things that need to be worked on, which is useful, but how do we decide if we should pass on to the next boat? If he says a dent in the keel, a soft patch in the bulkead GRP need to be repaired and the electrics and engine need to be fuly checked out before it can be considered sea worthy - is this CYA? Or should we give it a wide berth?

If he says something like that, are we going to have difficulty getting insurance? Sorry if all this sounds like ridiculous novice stuff - that's what I rely on you lot for! Thanks.

 

[ccscott49]

Dave,
The surveyor is doing exactly as he was instructed to do, give you a survey of the vessel. You now need to speak to a yard, a good yard! to give you an idea of the scope of any repairs neccessary. I dont understand the "give the engine a good check" he should have done that, or is the boat now out of the water? What was the surveyors final comments? Can you speak to the surveyor personally and ask for his opinion on the vessel verbally. The survey should not put you off, if the vessel can be repaired and made 100% seaworthy cheaply, you can use the survey as your bargaining chip. Look at the costs of repair and one of the most important things, the inventory! You would not believe just how much, fenders, warps and everything else will cost you. Have a chat with the broker aswell, they are not all out to feather there own nests and most are honest chaps, who want to do a good deal for all involved, its there reputation, and its in there interests to see you happy, you may want another boat down the line!!!!

 

[rogerroger]

If you paid for a survey then it must mean you value the opinion of a professional who knows more than you. If the surveyor says the boat is a dog (I'm not saying that yours has said this) and you chose to ignore him than why did you hire him?

I reckon in your case I'd use the survey to beat the vendor well down on price.

There are always going to be things wrong with an old boat - as ccscott writes, get quotes for what needs doing and then decide...

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[Shanty]

Yes, survey reports can be depressing reading. I had one done about twelve years ago that listed over 70 defects - I bought the boat, and never regretted it.

What you need to do is assess the significance of the points your surveyor mentions. Some will be trivial, others may indicate major, major problems. Some may be cheap to sort, others may reduce the value of the boat very significantly. If you are unsure about the significance of any of the points mentioned in the report, speak to your surveyor, discuss the point & get his opinion - remember he's the one person in the whole deal who is paid to be on your side. All the surveyors I have dealt with have expected to discuss their reports.

What you are trying to do is categorise the points raised:
are there problems that will cost more than the boat is worth to sort? - walk away from the deal very quickly
are there trivial problems that you are prepared to live with? - after making sure they are trivial, ignore them
are there problems you feel happy to sort yourself? - value of the boat reduced by at least the cost of materials involved
are there problems that you would put into professional hands? - talk to your boat yard, and reduce the value of the boat by their quotation

Once you have done this, you should have a better idea of the true worth of the boat - amend your offer, and see how the seller reacts - if he walks away from the deal, go look at the next boat, if not you stand a good chance of having a reasonable deal

 

[Sirus]

Just purchased my boat and the survey on it was pony but at the end the surveyor gave his opinon on how much it was worth,so with this figure we in mind managed to knock a considerable amount of the price giving me the money to do the work on the boat.
Any old boat will have somthing come up under survey, like the others say it depends on the serverity of the work needed,be best to get a shipwright to look at it.

 

[Guest]

The surveyor has presumably made various recommendations with respect to remedial works. If on top of his job he should have graded these in some way to give you as a lay person an indication of which deficiencies are cosmetic or minor, and which require early attention. As far as the engine goes the recommendation in your report is a bit wide but if the boat was ahore then there would be no opportunity to test the engine under load conditions; even if tested under load conditions it is still impossible to offer a confident opinion on internal condition and you just hacve to accept an element of risk, which should not be too onerous in a sailing boat where the engine is but a small part of the value.

 

[alant]

You may want to insure it. Then the survey becomes important. Without one (or at least a decent one) no-one would take the risk & insure. This can then get v.expensive, particularly if osmosis is suspect.

 

[Guest]

lots of good points above. remember two things

1/ you've may well have the hots for the boat and can easily talk yourself into a bad decision. i've certainly done that before now.
2/ the surveyor, concerned about his indemnity insurance, and the publics general tendency to moan and claim, will be covering his arse.

you need to seperate the things that matter from those that dont. most surveyors will do that for you over the phone if not in print. ask him - would he buy it himself if he was looking for that sort of boat? your sailing pals will give you a more dispassionate view of the survey.

if in doubt - walk away. there are lots of good cheap boats about

 

[Bergman]

A surveyor will always (or almost always) find enough to remedy on the boat to pay his fee. ie you get the survey for free - vendor pays.

It is important to read the survey carefully looking for words to the effect that the boat "is an insurable risk".

If it says this more likely to be ok - if not then be very very cautious.

 

[billskip]

You could end up with a house full of surveys ,no money left and no boat...only survey i have ever paid for was to buy my first house and that was only because the morgage people insisted....Im not saying im clever or wise because I know im not..but I think a lot of people will try to use surveyors as a way of getting the price down.. and I put them in the same box as solicitors and doctors you have to pay them even if there wrong..IMHO..

Bill
www.aegeansailing.co.uk

 

[DaveParry]

When you say I might want to get insurance, do you mean it is optional? Excuse my ignorance, but I had always assumed it was like insuring a car in that everyone was expected to have it. Is boat insurance generally only third party then? or is it 'comprehensive'?

 

[Guest]

Hi Dave

In the same position as you - deposit down on boat, waiting for survey. So thanks for starting this very useful and interesting thread.

Re insurance - I'm not sure there's a law saying you must get it but think about this. Would you make any other purchase of this size and not insure it? There have been one or two good threads recently about the pluses and minuses of different brokers. For what it's worth, I'm going with Navigators and General.

A bit of lateral thinking - Better Half and myself have got a little Triumph Spitfire 1500 which dates back to 1977. Bear with me, for this is not a digression.

It was the first car we looked at, we got the AA to do a report, the report came back saying "do not touch with a gold-plated barge pole." Corrosion all through the floor.

But we had fallen in love with that damn car and we bought it anyway, going on to spend thousands - nearly twice the purchase price - having a new floor welded in. We had bought cheap to do up, but even so.

Moral of this tale: listen to the experts. Really do listen to them. Especially if you've paid them.

My survey's being done at Easter and I *really* want the boat, which is a classic wooden one (even more parallels with the car), and not something which you find on the market very often.

I really hope I can take my own advice.

 

[kingfisher]

Insurance

Technicaly it's optional, but:
1) No marina will allow a boat to berth without proof of insurance, incl. visiting boats.

2) If you ever run into problems, the boat will ruin you (unless you put the boat in a corporation or other legal construction).

Need ay least third party, I'm afraid. Not that expensive.

160£ for my 31footer, full omnium, incl theft,excl mast, sails and outboard.

Obi-Wan
http://sirocco31.tripod.com

 

[Boatman]

If you want to cruise across the channel you will need at least 3rd party or face prison.

 

[lezgar]

When I bought my 1988 boat 3 years ago I asked to several Insurance Companies and they didn't ask me for a survey. The insurance company (3 years now) never ask me for a survey.

In several European countries (France, Spain, Greece...) a insurance is compulsory for all boats that are in their waters.

 

[DaveParry]

Well to close this thread off, I would like to thank everyone for contributing. We've taken the advice which said that if we were bothered to pay for a survey we should listen to what he says. In this case we rang the surveyor and asked for a 'not in writing' opinion on whether he would buy the boat in our shoes. He said no, and we have walked away. We don't see this as a waste of survey money - more likely it saved us a lot of money in the long run. We now have our eye on something else...