Unlawful detention by a marina - locked in!

[KompetentKrew]

It seems likely to me that refusing to provide your address would be viewed by the boys in blue as potentially indicative of intent, …

+1

Can't believe that part of the post you quite is correct.

No-one would refuse their name and address if they'd genuinely forgotten their wallet and refusal would no doubt provoke a fracas were it an owner-operated petrol station.

 

[Poecheng]

Ok back to the original question. If you have work done to something you own and your payment is overdue then the provider of the work can take a lien and in the case of a boat can arrest the boat and chain it. If you think about what happened here you were not detained but you were refused a service untill you paid, the service was operating the lock and on that basis I think it is legal.

If for example you visited a normal marina the marina would not be allowed to padlock boat to the pontoons until the owners paid. If on the otherhand you paid the marina to antifoul the boat and put it on its berth and you didn't pay then they coudl establish a lien and padlock the boat if the bill became overdue and you cut off the lock, that would be a criminal offence (good luck getting plod to actually do anything about it though).

The first paragraph provides the legal answer: a lien. It is the right of continued possession against others, including the owner, in respect of debts owed on that particular property. However, the payment was for the overnight berthing (not, I expect, the lock operation) and so the debt arose and they have a right of possession that temporarily defeats the rights of the owner. The operation of the lock is another means by which they can easily enforce the lien but an open marina could, if they wished, block in a boat or take similar action to retain possession.

It is no different from the car mechanic declining to give you your keys until you pay up, or opening his yard gates to let you out. There have been prosecutions for theft where people have driven off their cars that were subject to a lien - you can steal your own property since you have dishonestly defeated the property rights (possession under a lien) of the mechanic.

Here, the boat owes money for services rendered, it is in the possession of the marina (it is also in the possession of the owner but that does not matter for these purposes) and the marina has a right to retain possession (the lien) until the debt is paid. They couldn't, for example, go and clamp his car in a nearby carpark because that is not the thing either in their possession or in respect of which the debt arose.

 

[Mister E]

Not allowing further use of their property or services without paying first.
Is my take on it.
Assuming the own or rent the lock.

 

[Refueler]

IMHO ... a learning experience ....

IMHO ... simply put : No Money = No Honey ....

Sorry but that's my take on it, regardless of the locker-room lawyer talk ....

Service has a fee .. no pay - no service. The matter of taking so long to pay via internet was not Lock-Keepers fault.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

IMHO ... a learning experience ....

IMHO ... simply put : No Money = No Honey ....

Sorry but that's my take on it, regardless of the locker-room lawyer talk ....

Service has a fee .. no pay - no service. The matter of taking so long to pay via internet was not Lock-Keepers fault.

They could perhaps these days provide the lock keeper with a card payment device, you can buy them in Screwfix these days. Then the hard line policy would make total sense.

 

[Refueler]

They could perhaps these days provide the lock keeper with a card payment device, you can buy them in Screwfix these days. Then the hard line policy would make total sense.

Agree ... but it still does not change facts of OP case ...

He did not pay before getting to Lock.
Lock would not open for him till he paid.
He had crap internet - not Locks fault - so was delayed in paying.

Lesson in one : Pay when Office is open or if Internet - pay on arrival for expected stay ... if stay longer then pay again ..

I arrived in Farosund Marina this late summer ... Marina office closed. BEFORE I did anything else - I logged onto Website and paid the 1 night fee minimum ... we were not sure about staying longer ... but in fact left 3hrs later. Moved round the coast to another as farosund was basically shut down end of season. But its noted that CCTV records arrivals / departures so my paying was good order.
Other Marina - private based ... Owner was just arriving to fire up the Sauna for Ladies Night !
We went over to talk and pay .. he said arr its End of Season .. so half fee ... but could not take card ... so I gave him my email and details and asked him to send me bank info - I would pay by my phone. Arrr forget it .. do you want to enjoy the Sauna ?? We declined and went back to the boat ..

About an hour later ... sitting in cockpit enjoying a beer ... naked ladies young and old all jumping into the harbour after sauna .. !! We were only about 15 - 20m from them ... this repeated for over an hour !!!!

The Owner had his 50ft Sail Cruiser there ... serious blue-water job. Talking to another boat .. the owner of Marina was famous Swedish guy who sailed round the world singlehanded on that 50ft'r....

Wonderful stay there ... we plan to return more than once next year ...

Valleviken

 

[Momac]

I prefer not to upset any management of a particular harbour or marina as I may well wish to visit the same location at some future time.
I wouldn't dream of staying overnight without paying when payment should be due although I do know people who would.

Much as already said . If wishing to arrive after the office is closed and depart early the next morning its easy enough to make arrangements in advance.

Admittedly marinas and harbours could be better at making arrangements for payments out of office hours. There is nothing new about arriving and departing according to tides. One marina I have visited had a letterbox in which to place the payment but since the decline in use of cash and cheques they have since made other arrangements. However another marina and a harbour I know of and visit has no such facilities. The office of the harbour I am thinking of is only open an hour on Saturday and Sunday mornings so you have to be aware of that if you want to pay and leave on those days.

If you try to walk out of a shop with goods you haven't paid for without paying you would expect to be detained. The situation described in the original post is no different.
Naming the marina in the original post is entirely inappropriate.

 

[penberth3]

.....I think he’s missed the point that if the lock was only manned say 0800-2200 he’d also have been trapped. Getting in a froth about your rights when you need someone’s cooperation to leave seems like a dumb way to waste time.

I'll guess this is the root of the problem. Lack of planning and communication by the OP, followed by misplaced outrage. But it's started an interesting thread!

 

[pauldowrick]

I'll guess this is the root of the problem. Lack of planning and communication by the OP, followed by misplaced outrage. But it's started an interesting thread!

Hi

I am the op…. No outrage. It is what it is. Just an interesting point for debate. I have no bad feelings towards the marina.

It was annoying at the time because the mobile phone had no coverage in the marina and we had to go off on foot to try and get a signal.

Lady bee was chosen as a last minute port of refuge due to one member having extreme sea sickness.

Our full intention was to phone the office whilst we were under way and pay the bill. A hasty departure was demanded by the owner who did not like the idea of his first ever entrance into Dover being in the dark. A fear he had to overcome, and did so well.

I believe you should always pay your bills…. Apart from the morality side, Marinas talk to each other

 

[mattonthesea]

As we were lifted in and set off from our overwinter yard in the Baltic, I asked about payment.
"We'll send you an invoice. Was the reply.
It arrived nearly five months later! I paid within 10 mins.

 

[Gixer]

They could perhaps these days provide the lock keeper with a card payment device, you can buy them in Screwfix these days. Then the hard line policy would make total sense.

Disagree, the lock keepers are professionals at a commercial port who man the gates 24-7 365 days a year. They deal with everything from small fishing boats, yachts to huge bulk carriers, Pilot vessels and coasters. Asking them to deal with payments I think is a step too far. There is a chandlers 50 yards from the pontoons you can walk into and pay that’s open 7 days a week. Not 24h but not many places are.
If you need somewhere you can pay 24h Brighton is 5nm up the coast, it’s a lot more expensive though.

 

[Lucky Duck]

If you need somewhere you can pay 24h Brighton is 5nm up the coast, it’s a lot more expensive though.

For a typical 10m boat the saving is £1!

Lady Bee £4.40 and Brighton £4.50 per metre

 

[Refueler]

As we were lifted in and set off from our overwinter yard in the Baltic, I asked about payment.
"We'll send you an invoice. Was the reply.
It arrived nearly five months later! I paid within 10 mins.

Yes that's quite common here in Baltic - except somewhere like Riga .... most places are very 'Swedish' about things ...

 

[seeSimon]

I'll guess this is the root of the problem. Lack of planning and communication by the OP, followed by misplaced outrage. But it's started an interesting thread!

Tend to agree with the above, however in but two examples of my experiences "the authorities " can be seemingly consistently inconsistent!

Car fuel. Plod.
Driving an fairly distinctive vehicle and towing a boat, on "private plates", I filled up with fuel at a Shell station on an A road near Gloucester. "Paid" using the Shell app (in vehicle, on phone, at pump - safety yes i know, but their app/methodology!), i drove off...
Working offshore on a gas rig, a few days later, I was dragged in off deck to an irate manager, who was fielding a call from a rather aggressive Gloucestershire Police constable who was intent on pursuing me for "making off...". He demanded that I IMMEDIATELY return to the fuel station to pay up, if I wished to avoid arrest. Tried to explain that this was not possible (neither was the arrest, as my boss had already pointed out!), and offererd to pay him there and then via credit card...it took quite some sorting out. I deleted the failed Shell app!

Boat. An (extremely busy) South Devon Harbour Authority.
New to me, purchase was completed early August. Sold to me with pontoon mooring paid for the full year, by an owner who was retiring from sailing. Checked by broker and surveyor. However...I was given a week to remove the boat as "the HA contract was with the payee, the original owner". In my cynical opinion, they doubtless resold "my" berth to a visitor, at higher daily rates?
The boat was always going to be relocated to my own mooring (another port, 60 miles away) but I quite fancied exploring the S Hams for a few weeks...

I was jolly cross on both occasions!

 

[Refueler]

Tend to agree with the above, however in but two examples of my experiences "the authorities " can be seemingly consistently inconsistent!

Car fuel. Plod.
Driving an fairly distinctive vehicle and towing a boat, on "private plates", I filled up with fuel at a Shell station on an A road near Gloucester. "Paid" using the Shell app (in vehicle, on phone, at pump - safety yes i know, but their app/methodology!), i drove off...
Working offshore on a gas rig, a few days later, I was dragged in off deck to an irate manager, who was fielding a call from a rather aggressive Gloucestershire Police constable who was intent on pursuing me for "making off...". He demanded that I IMMEDIATELY return to the fuel station to pay up, if I wished to avoid arrest. Tried to explain that this was not possible (neither was the arrest, as my boss had already pointed out!), and offererd to pay him there and then via credit card...it took quite some sorting out. I deleted the failed Shell app!

Boat. An (extremely busy) South Devon Harbour Authority.
New to me, purchase was completed early August. Sold to me with pontoon mooring paid for the full year, by an owner who was retiring from sailing. Checked by broker and surveyor. However...I was given a week to remove the boat as "the HA contract was with the payee, the original owner". In my cynical opinion, they doubtless resold "my" berth to a visitor, at higher daily rates?
The boat was always going to be relocated to my own mooring (another port, 60 miles away) but I quite fancied exploring the S Hams for a few weeks...

I was jolly cross on both occasions!

OK ... first OK ... fully with you ...

Second about the Berth - Why did you pay for a berth without confirming with HM that was allowed ? Most do not allow just willy nilly transfer of berth - it needs to be signed for. Looks like Seller got his fees back from you !!

 

[Mister E]

Not directed at any person but it was only the boat that was detained.
The people could have left by running walking swimming flying pogo stick.

 

[bedouin]

The boat wasn't really detained - the lock keeper simply refused to provide a service for the OP until it had been paid for. For him to have been prevented from leaving a marina where he could just sail away would have been a different matter - and almost certainly illegal. Yes marinas etc can "arrest" a vessel but they need to go through a formal process to do so.

 

[Refueler]

The boat wasn't really detained - the lock keeper simply refused to provide a service for the OP until it had been paid for. For him to have been prevented from leaving a marina where he could just sail away would have been a different matter - and almost certainly illegal. Yes marinas etc can "arrest" a vessel but they need to go through a formal process to do so.

Denmark .... 20,000 ton Chemi Tanker .... I was walking up gangway after trip ashore ... guy was on dock slapping the paper 'impound' notice on the hull. Total time from 'infringement' to paper on hull ? Less than 1 hour.

 

[Poecheng]

The boat wasn't really detained - the lock keeper simply refused to provide a service for the OP until it had been paid for. For him to have been prevented from leaving a marina where he could just sail away would have been a different matter - and almost certainly illegal. Yes marinas etc can "arrest" a vessel but they need to go through a formal process to do so.

Not in the circumstances of a lien.
Arrest of a vessel is not the same (it may have a similar or same result, but is not founded the same basis) and, you are correct that arrest is a formal, judicial process.
A lien is a self-help remedy.

 

[bedouin]

Not in the circumstances of a lien.
Arrest of a vessel is not the same (it may have a similar or same result, but is not founded the same basis) and, you are correct that arrest is a formal, judicial process.
A lien is a self-help remedy.

I had to look that one up! Apparently in UK liens only to wages and salvage (and bottomry - but I daren't look that one up to find out what it means - I am sure Refueler can enlighten us all)