Citizen science request – UK watercraft duty cycles survey

[RunAgroundHard]

Don't know what the fuss is all about, beyond the usual complaints when a survey is posted that it doesn't meet the readers special needs. It is very easy to complete.

Pretty obvious if you google Cenex and Aqua Power that is gathering marketing data. The OP description is very poor, but the survey itself is straight forward if you wish to complete it and know your boat and usage data. What they may or may not get out of the data is their business. You don't need to share email addresses, I didn't and answered all the questions.

 

[KevinV]

As above, the survey is so far removed from leisure boating as to be irrelevant. The idea of using marina based boats' drive batteries (when they become a thing) for storage is a good one, this survey isn't going to get any sensible answers from that demographic though - as suggested above, there are better ways to estimate the power stored on boats (tankage), and its availability (usage pattern).
You also need to exclude leisure boaters' input - we will always overestimate how much we use our boats, and underestimate the fuel spend - we have to lie to ourselves, otherwise we wouldn't have boats.

 

[stranded]

Wouldnt using ev or boat batteries to support the national grid potentially degrade the batteries by more frequent cycling?

 

[Dr Nick]

I've answered, but can I echo the comments of others. If you want leisure boat users to engage, you really need a specific questionnaire asking relevant questions to us.

This survey will improve our understanding of vessel duty cycles. If additional research is required for some sectors, we will inform the DfT, and they will (hopefully!) commission such research in the future.

Don't know what the fuss is all about, beyond the usual complaints when a survey is posted that it doesn't meet the readers special needs. It is very easy to complete.

Pretty obvious if you google Cenex and Aqua Power that is gathering marketing data. The OP description is very poor, but the survey itself is straight forward if you wish to complete it and know your boat and usage data. What they may or may not get out of the data is their business. You don't need to share email addresses, I didn't and answered all the questions.

Please note that Aqua Power is a consortium member for the VBEV2 project, but they will NOT get direct access to any data from this survey. Aqua Power will only access the aggregated, public-facing report results (though, as a consortium member, they will get access to those public-facing results a few months ahead of the general public). Cenex will only keep survey information for research purposes, and we will not use any data collected for this survey for marketing purposes.

Echo the previous post. You are unlikely to get anything meaningful out of such a survey using a scatter gun approach with clearly poorly designed questions that do not seem to have been tested. Volume of response is not a substitute for good quality relevant questions posed to a qualified targets audience.

For pleasure boats the ICOMIA report referred to in post#8 will give you far more on the subject than you will ever get on your own. For small commercial and fleet operators which your questions suggest is your target sector you perhaps need a different approach. It is a very fragmented and diverse sector which you need to understand before you design your research strategy. A "citizen science" approach is maybe not the way to gather meaningful data.

I have reviewed the free ICOMIA report downloads. One is market sales data, and the other is a global warming potential estimate of modelled power trains, with limited justification of the selected energy profile for each vessel modelled. From the information freely available, I can't see how these reports are useful to this research project. If I have made a mistake or missed another report, please post a direct link that I can follow, and I will certainly review it.

 

[mjcoon]

Wouldn't using EV boat batteries to support the national grid potentially degrade the batteries by more frequent cycling?

I wonder about that wrt cars...

 

[jwilson]

I wonder about that wrt cars...

Where I live in town with on-street parking (sometimes close to house and often much further away) an EV is as much use to me as a chocolate teapot. If I ever move to a suburban house with a driveway an EV starts to sound useful. Except I'd be seriously ****ed off if at 0600 one freezing winter morning I set off to drive 250 miles and found my car battery has been supporting the grid all night and only had 20% charge.

 

[[70521]]

At the end of the survey I made the comment that I've seen better undergraduate surveys, and some of them are dire.

I'd ask the learned Doctor to engage with this audience and understand how we use vessels then create a survey that a) has been spell checked and b) collects some usable data.

 

[flaming]

This survey will improve our understanding of vessel duty cycles. If additional research is required for some sectors, we will inform the DfT, and they will (hopefully!) commission such research in the future.

Yes, that was somewhat my point... You cannot talk about duty cycles with respect to leisure boats. Having completed the survey, I can see the relevance with respect to commercial ferries, work boats etc. But whilst I could answer thinking about my boat, my main reaction was "this is going to produce a set of answers that don't tell the actual story of how this will work."

 

[Tranona]

This survey will improve our understanding of vessel duty cycles. If additional research is required for some sectors, we will inform the DfT, and they will (hopefully!) commission such research in the future.



I have reviewed the free ICOMIA report downloads. One is market sales data, and the other is a global warming potential estimate of modelled power trains, with limited justification of the selected energy profile for each vessel modelled. From the information freely available, I can't see how these reports are useful to this research project. If I have made a mistake or missed another report, please post a direct link that I can follow, and I will certainly review it.

If you have read the report it will tell you that electric propulsion for pleasure boats is virtually non existent and as a consequence the amount of energy stored in batteries with potential for feedback into the grid is equally non existent. It also explains the methodology it used to determine how boats are used - that is the closest you can get to the normal meaning of duty cycles.

To an extent this is also true about commercial operators - there are very few who use electricity to power their boats, or even have the potential given the current technology. As I said it is also very fragmented and diverse. Like the pleasure market the level of use will be very low for most operators.

To be of any use you perhaps need to identify the small number of big operators who do (or might) use electricity in scale and in concentration. That is why I observed that the questionnaire does not seem to have been tested and trialled to see if the questions are relevant and the data you might obtain is useful. Volume of response is not a good measure as I am sure you know so offering a £50 prize draw to unknown people on a small yachting forum does suggest a bit of desperation!

So rather than your suggestion that the data you gather from this exercise might prompt further research it is more likely that research is needed into whether electricity is actually used or has potential in these applications before asking whether duty cycles permit some feedback.

 

[Boathook]

Don't know what the fuss is all about, beyond the usual complaints when a survey is posted that it doesn't meet the readers special needs. It is very easy to complete.

Pretty obvious if you google Cenex and Aqua Power that is gathering marketing data. The OP description is very poor, but the survey itself is straight forward if you wish to complete it and know your boat and usage data. What they may or may not get out of the data is their business. You don't need to share email addresses, I didn't and answered all the questions.

It's easy to complete but a lot of my answers use the word 'varies' which don't make sense but I could not find a better way to answer a question. Using a boat for leisure use is so variable as to how long I'm out for and even where I'm going. I normally have a plan but alter as I go depending upon weather and who is on board.

 

[Boathook]

If you have read the report it will tell you that electric propulsion for pleasure boats is virtually non existent and as a consequence the amount of energy stored in batteries with potential for feedback into the grid is equally non existent. It also explains the methodology it used to determine how boats are used - that is the closest you can get to the normal meaning of duty cycles.

To an extent this is also true about commercial operators - there are very few who use electricity to power their boats, or even have the potential given the current technology. As I said it is also very fragmented and diverse. Like the pleasure market the level of use will be very low for most operators.

To be of any use you perhaps need to identify the small number of big operators who do (or might) use electricity in scale and in concentration. That is why I observed that the questionnaire does not seem to have been tested and trialled to see if the questions are relevant and the data you might obtain is useful. Volume of response is not a good measure as I am sure you know so offering a £50 prize draw to unknown people on a small yachting forum does suggest a bit of desperation!

So rather than your suggestion that the data you gather from this exercise might prompt further research it is more likely that research is needed into whether electricity is actually used or has potential in these applications before asking whether duty cycles permit some feedback.

The boatyard I'm at only has 5 amp supplies to boats as the main cable feeding are to small, so electric boats are presently ruled out.

 

[Pinnacle]

This survey will improve our understanding of vessel duty cycles. If additional research is required for some sectors, we will inform the DfT, and they will (hopefully!) commission such research in the future.


Please note that Aqua Power is a consortium member for the VBEV2 project, but they will NOT get direct access to any data from this survey. Aqua Power will only access the aggregated, public-facing report results (though, as a consortium member, they will get access to those public-facing results a few months ahead of the general public). Cenex will only keep survey information for research purposes, and we will not use any data collected for this survey for marketing purposes.



I have reviewed the free ICOMIA report downloads. One is market sales data, and the other is a global warming potential estimate of modelled power trains, with limited justification of the selected energy profile for each vessel modelled. From the information freely available, I can't see how these reports are useful to this research project. If I have made a mistake or missed another report, please post a direct link that I can follow, and I will certainly review it.

I imagine you are aware of the initiative that is underway to provide power to ships while in the port of Portsmouth. See here. Brittany Ferries signs 20-year Portsmouth deal

As the article notes, there is no obligation on Brittany Ferries to connect to the new supply and it would be cheaper for them to keep their generators running whilst in port.

 

[KevinV]

So rather than your suggestion that the data you gather from this exercise might prompt further research it is more likely that research is needed into whether electricity is actually used or has potential in these applications before asking whether duty cycles permit some feedback.

Not sure I agree with you there - looking at the future has to be about looking at potential, not at the current situation. I can easily envisage a world of electric pleasure boats. Marinas will adapt to demand and/or regulation to fit power supply to pontoon spaces. These boats will require large battery banks that are (pretty much) only used on weekends - a lot of storage being effectively wasted because it sits there full most of the time.

One of our biggest problems with renewables is storage - this idea could help in the long term, and is vastly more cost effective and spread out (a good thing) than mega projects. Just think of the marinas full of boats doing nothing. I can see a system whereby you receive free or heavily discounted electricity in exchange for allowing your batteries to be used in this way. An app in which you could specify "I'll be taking the boat out tomorrow" would work perfectly well. FWIW, I think the same idea would also work for cars with on street/ garage parking if every space had a charger, ie fill up during the day when there's lots of solar, drive it home and use it there at night - instead of the other way round as it is now. Again, you'd need to be able to specify for instance what your commute is in the morning so you aren't left empty, but it's quite possible or will be shortly.

 

[mjcoon]

Where I live in town with on-street parking (sometimes close to house and often much further away) an EV is as much use to me as a chocolate teapot. If I ever move to a suburban house with a driveway an EV starts to sound useful. Except I'd be seriously ****ed off if at 0600 one freezing winter morning I set off to drive 250 miles and found my car battery has been supporting the grid all night and only had 20% charge.

Yes, you would need rigid rules! Reminds me that I had a new immersion tank fitted complete with new heater. Discovered that it purported to be "intelligent" and know when I wanted hot water despite not even having access to time of day. Fortunately that "feature" could be switched off, and was!

 

[dunedin]

Don't know what the fuss is all about, beyond the usual complaints when a survey is posted that it doesn't meet the readers special needs. It is very easy to complete.

Pretty obvious if you google Cenex and Aqua Power that is gathering marketing data. The OP description is very poor, but the survey itself is straight forward if you wish to complete it and know your boat and usage data. What they may or may not get out of the data is their business. You don't need to share email addresses, I didn't and answered all the questions.

The fuss is perhaps due to the claimed purpose in post #1….
I am conducting a research project, funded by the UK government through the Innovate UK Funding Programme, that aims to understand the duty cycle of vessels operating in UK waters, both inland and coastal. This research is crucial for understanding the energy use of all UK boats and ships. The results will inform plans for decarbonising commercial and leisure boats as we head toward 2050.

So the OP has stated that this is public funded. And more importantly is planning to feed into the Governments plans on moving to nett zero. In other words, this could lead towards rules or restrictions on boating.

And Dr Nick has failed to respond to my question in post #8 - if this is intended to be serious research, what steps are being taken to ensure it is a representative sample of the population of “UK boats and ships”? Just lobbing surveys on random forums (it is on other forums I see) does not create an unbiased sample.
Indeed, the first thing needed would be an estimate of the full population and its makeup, in terms of types and sizes of boats etc.

Perhaps Dr Nick could respond to these points regarding the statistical basis for this research.

 

[dunedin]

I have reviewed the free ICOMIA report downloads. One is market sales data, and the other is a global warming potential estimate of modelled power trains, with limited justification of the selected energy profile for each vessel modelled. From the information freely available, I can't see how these reports are useful to this research project. If I have made a mistake or missed another report, please post a direct link that I can follow, and I will certainly review it.

Wow. So before seeking funding for this research had you not heard of the ICOMIA report, and studied it in detail?
This was widely publicised and known to most people with any knowledge in this area. It is also known to the DfT, who have a full copy.
What groundwork have you done before starting this research?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

The fuss is perhaps due to the claimed purpose in post #1….
I am conducting a research project, funded by the UK government through the Innovate UK Funding Programme, that aims to understand the duty cycle of vessels operating in UK waters, both inland and coastal. This research is crucial for understanding the energy use of all UK boats and ships. The results will inform plans for decarbonising commercial and leisure boats as we head toward 2050.

So the OP has stated that this is public funded. And more importantly is planning to feed into the Governments plans on moving to nett zero. In other words, this could lead towards rules or restrictions on boating.

And Dr Nick has failed to respond to my question in post #8 - if this is intended to be serious research, what steps are being taken to ensure it is a representative sample of the population of “UK boats and ships”? Just lobbing surveys on random forums (it is on other forums I see) does not create an unbiased sample.
Indeed, the first thing needed would be an estimate of the full population and its makeup, in terms of types and sizes of boats etc.

Perhaps Dr Nick could respond to these points regarding the statistical basis for this research.

I don't see why that is worthy of a fuss. If you have an issue, raising it on here likely won't do anything much, as the funding application has been vetted, agreed and disbursement commenced. Take it up with "UK Research and Innovation", the body that implements the requirements of the Innovation Funding Service.

I agree that the questions are limited in for far as the leisure sailing is concerned and usage has to be estimated, aggregated for a typical leisure season, but it is not a hard thing to do. You seem quite an organised person based on your cruising comments, I reckon you could easily complete the questionnaire, if interested.

Leisure sailing with combustion engines may be impacted at some point because of the UKs commitments to achieving net zero by 2050 (the date that Saraband is pretending to be ignorant of). Survey's like this could contribute to a decision that results in no change as the impact is small, or some change adjustments like a carbon tax, or a total change.

I agree that targeting forums like this may produce a data set that is difficult to substantiate any trend or fact. Targeting the likes of trade organisations, associations and government bodies could be more productive. Indeed the RYA measure the density of leisure yacht usage around the UK via the "Coastal Atlas" dataset, started in 2004. The dataset can be licensed and may even produce insights into combustion engine usage.

Perhaps the real purpose of the survey is too test how militant leisure sailors are (-;

I think your fear, underlined in the quote box, is well underway and there is likely no much you can do about it.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure I agree with you there - looking at the future has to be about looking at potential, not at the current situation. I can easily envisage a world of electric pleasure boats. Marinas will adapt to demand and/or regulation to fit power supply to pontoon spaces. These boats will require large battery banks that are (pretty much) only used on weekends - a lot of storage being effectively wasted because it sits there full most of the time.

One of our biggest problems with renewables is storage - this idea could help in the long term, and is vastly more cost effective and spread out (a good thing) than mega projects. Just think of the marinas full of boats doing nothing. I can see a system whereby you receive free or heavily discounted electricity in exchange for allowing your batteries to be used in this way. An app in which you could specify "I'll be taking the boat out tomorrow" would work perfectly well. FWIW, I think the same idea would also work for cars with on street/ garage parking if every space had a charger, ie fill up during the day when there's lots of solar, drive it home and use it there at night - instead of the other way round as it is now. Again, you'd need to be able to specify for instance what your commute is in the morning so you aren't left empty, but it's quite possible or will be shortly.

Of course if looking at a 2050 timescale one has to look at "potential". However in terms of the pleasure boat market there will be minimal change in that time frame for 2 reasons. First electric is fundamentally mis matched to the way people use their boats (at least in the UK) and secondly the number of new boats (that might be electric powered) coming on is tiny in relation to the existing "park".

I can see somebody looking at all those boats sitting around doing nothing for 90%+ of the time and thinking they might provide a good back up storage of energy in their battery banks that could be charged at low demand times and accessed at high. But do some simple arithmetic and assume that all boats were converted to electric power. Our club marina has about 300 boats in the 25-40' range with inboard engines. A typical electric installation for this size has a battery capacity of between 6-10kwh, so being generous assume the higher. so the total storage is a nominal 3000kWh. This would meet the daily demand for around 300 homes or about 10500 miles of motoring in an EV. The capital cost of converting the 300 boats at an average of £15000 including the batteries would be £4.5m. I can't even guess at the infrastructure costs of hooking all these little batteries up to the grid.

Perhaps Dr Nick can now see why I suggested he needs to understand the pleasure boat scene, which was well explained in the ICOMIA report before designing his research project and questionnaire. The report was focusing on carbon reduction but the fundamental data on which it is based is essentially the same when looking at storage capacity within batteries in pleasure boats. There is mor potential in the commercial shipping field as the usage/storage numbers are far larger plus there may be possibilities for bespoke individual schemes with certain high usage operators.

 

[Dellquay13]

Of course if looking at a 2050 timescale one has to look at "potential". However in terms of the pleasure boat market there will be minimal change in that time frame for 2 reasons. First electric is fundamentally mis matched to the way people use their boats (at least in the UK) and secondly the number of new boats (that might be electric powered) coming on is tiny in relation to the existing "park".

I can see somebody looking at all those boats sitting around doing nothing for 90%+ of the time and thinking they might provide a good back up storage of energy in their battery banks that could be charged at low demand times and accessed at high. But do some simple arithmetic and assume that all boats were converted to electric power. Our club marina has about 300 boats in the 25-40' range with inboard engines. A typical electric installation for this size has a battery capacity of between 6-10kwh, so being generous assume the higher. so the total storage is a nominal 3000kWh. This would meet the daily demand for around 300 homes or about 10500 miles of motoring in an EV. The capital cost of converting the 300 boats at an average of £15000 including the batteries would be £4.5m. I can't even guess at the infrastructure costs of hooking all these little batteries up to the grid.

Perhaps Dr Nick can now see why I suggested he needs to understand the pleasure boat scene, which was well explained in the ICOMIA report before designing his research project and questionnaire. The report was focusing on carbon reduction but the fundamental data on which it is based is essentially the same when looking at storage capacity within batteries in pleasure boats. There is mor potential in the commercial shipping field as the usage/storage numbers are far larger plus there may be possibilities for bespoke individual schemes with certain high usage operators.

“There is more potential in the commercial shipping field”

I would have thought there would be virtually no potential* in the commercial shipping sector. Those ships are out working and making money for their operators, they don’t spend enough of their time attached to the shore to make much use of any onboard battery setup for national infrastructure projects.
Most of them are not UK owned either, virtually none of the ships I see coming into Milford Haven have red dusters or UK registration on their stern.

*no, not that kind of ‘potential’, obviously they have a ‘Potential Difference’ across their batteries…

 

[Daydream believer]

I was going to do the questionaire, but then I thought that I might win the £50 & end up subscribing to "Prime" - so I opted out.
Let's face it no one thinks that this is serious- do they?
I think that it is actually another Amazon scam & we were all going to "win"