Seeing Out - Why is not more popular!! Deck Saloons

[roblpm]

I was down on my boat last weekend fixing stuff. Nice for a while then pouring with rain. So decide to eat my lunch below and realise that I am looking at the other side of the inside of the boat while I am relaxing.

I also suffer from mild seasickness, but not when I am sailing the boat. I only seem to suffer when down below in the marina!!

So my thought process went along the lines of this:

When I trade up from my Parker 275 in 5-10 years for a boat in which I can cruise long distances (Norway, Azores, Atlantic?) I should get a nice deck saloon so when I am at anchor in a Norwegian fjord and it is freezing cold I can see the view out the window. About 35 feet.

Also if I am single handing then I could spend some time inside and keep watch.

So then I started looking at the boats that are available and find that it is a niche area.

The normal candidates for a reasonable displacement cruiser either British - Rustler, Vancouver etc or Scandanavian H Rassy, Malo etc mainly you cant see out the windows.

I came up with Nordship, Sirius, Nauticat (the sailing ones), Southerly and not much more. All expensive! And the lack of choice leaves me wondering if they are a bad idea!

So my question is why is everyone keen to have dark saloons where they cant see out. Seaworthiness I suppose and the difficulty of fitting this shape in to a boat under 40 feet.

So should my dream boat (well practical dream) be a Nordship 35 or just stick with the mainstream and buy a Malo 36!!??!

Cheers

Rob

 

[pmagowan]

I have been looking into this as I am designing my own boat of around 40 feet in length. The Rustler looks nice from the point of view of being elevated into the light and view but it is a big compromise on the internal usage of the boat. It prevents having 2 aft cabins as the lounge seating takes up the space for a door. It does allow good room for the engine below but I think it also makes quite a lot of less useful space here too. I know some people also don't like the hot conservatory feel you can get in them. Like everything it is a bit of a compromise and I think most people prefer to be up and out on a boat so if the weather is bad they don't mind retreating into the bilges.

 

[Concerto]

The only British boats that fit your brief are the Westerly Riviera 35 http://www.westerly-owners.co.uk/boat_riviera_35.php, and Moody Eclipse 33 http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Archives/7_boat.htm or Moody Eclipse 38 http://www.moodyowners.net/Moody_Archives/8_boat.htm. None of which are built today, so it would have to be secondhand.

My late parents had an Eclipse 43, so I know exactly what you are after.

 

[Kelpie]

If you have a big coachroof a la deck saloon, how do you see over/past it when you are sat in the cockpit helming the boat?

 

[maby]

If you have a big coachroof a la deck saloon, how do you see over/past it when you are sat in the cockpit helming the boat?

Cockpit floor set higher? There's no absolute figure for these measurements you know - we have a deck saloon, but no trouble seeing over it to helm - ok that's not strictly speaking true, but the obstruction is my wife's wind surfer strapped across the coachroof - when that's not there, I can easily see to steer.

 

[roblpm]

If you have a big coachroof a la deck saloon, how do you see over/past it when you are sat in the cockpit helming the boat?

This is the sort of thing I am after to put me off!!

But I do suffer from S.A.D, I hate sitting in the dark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kelpie]

Cockpit floor set higher?

Ah but that brings its own problems, usually meaning a wide and shallow cockpit which is fine if you want to squeeze berths in underneath it, but brings obvious downsides. I suppose you could raise the coamings to make the cockpit more secure again, but you're adding extra windage and possibly making it difficult to pass things up from the dinghy.

The compromise I am aiming at is to have a really nice cockpit enclosure that can be erected once we are anchored for the night, perhaps with a wee cockpit table for that al fresco dining experience...

 

[maby]

Ah but that brings its own problems, usually meaning a wide and shallow cockpit which is fine if you want to squeeze berths in underneath it, but brings obvious downsides. I suppose you could raise the coamings to make the cockpit more secure again, but you're adding extra windage and possibly making it difficult to pass things up from the dinghy.

The compromise I am aiming at is to have a really nice cockpit enclosure that can be erected once we are anchored for the night, perhaps with a wee cockpit table for that al fresco dining experience...

Quite true - I would not promote a deck saloon for serious blue water sailing - it's more a floating apartment. We have no accommodation aft of the companionway - just engine room and storage.

 

[MikeBz]

Vancouver 34 Pilot or Frances 34 (Victoria 34 with deck saloon) are very nice but £££££, and as others have said with a deckhouse your forward visibility from the cockpit is very poor (though maybe not that much worse than with a nasty sprayhood). There are other compromises, like less space down below and/or smaller cockpit. But I understand exactly why you are thinking it might be a good idea, so nice to be inside and still have visibility on cold/wet days.

 

[Tranona]

Deck saloons below 35' have never been popular, although many builders have had a go. Moody Eclipse already mentioned, Voyager 35, Trident 30, Hunter 27, Konsort Duo, Endurance 35 just as examples. The big problem is that you lose more than you gain and it is difficult to get them to look right because the proportions are all wrong. Costs to build are substantially higher and buyers at that size level generally won't pay the extra.

Bit different as you have discovered in Scandinavia where the deck saloon has greater advantages in extending the sailing season, but buyers tend not to have budget constraints so you end up with low volume semi custom boats. once you get over 35' then deck saloons become more practical as the extra length means the greater depth required to get a deck saloon and reasonable accommodation is more easily achieved. Look at boats around 40' compared with 35' and you will see the difference - but of course all this volume comes at a price.

 

[charles_reed]

A 35' is about the shortest length at which one can mitigate the losses experienced with a deck saloon - it was an eye-opener to me to see how much less usable room one had in the Angus Primrose Voyager compared to the Warrior.
He actually did a circumnavigation with family in the Voyager.
They're now long in the tooth, so I'm not proposing you get one.
On the other hand most people overwintering in the Med seem to achieve the same end by having a really snug cockpit enclosure, as their winter living quarters.

 

[maby]

The term has become a bit ill-defined these days. Most of the AWB brands have boats sold as "Deck Saloons" which are just standard yacht designs with increased headroom and large windows - no implication of being able to helm from inside. Ours has an enormous cockpit with twin wheels and no accommodation below coupled with a large lounge with big picture windows. Look at Jeanneau and Bavaria deck saloons - pretty much the same layout as their standard boats but with big windows and more headroom.

 

[roblpm]

The term has become a bit ill-defined these days. Most of the AWB brands have boats sold as "Deck Saloons" which are just standard yacht designs with increased headroom and large windows - no implication of being able to helm from inside. Ours has an enormous cockpit with twin wheels and no accommodation below coupled with a large lounge with big picture windows. Look at Jeanneau and Bavaria deck saloons - pretty much the same layout as their standard boats but with big windows and more headroom.

Which boat do you have. Pictures??

 

[roblpm]

Deck saloons below 35' have never been popular, although many builders have had a go. Moody Eclipse already mentioned, Voyager 35, Trident 30, Hunter 27, Konsort Duo, Endurance 35 just as examples. The big problem is that you lose more than you gain and it is difficult to get them to look right because the proportions are all wrong. Costs to build are substantially higher and buyers at that size level generally won't pay the extra.

Bit different as you have discovered in Scandinavia where the deck saloon has greater advantages in extending the sailing season, but buyers tend not to have budget constraints so you end up with low volume semi custom boats. once you get over 35' then deck saloons become more practical as the extra length means the greater depth required to get a deck saloon and reasonable accommodation is more easily achieved. Look at boats around 40' compared with 35' and you will see the difference - but of course all this volume comes at a price.

Well I live in Scotland so it would be a similar idea!

Nordship 40 looks good!! Will have to get saving though! And not put the kids through college!!

 

[maby]

Which boat do you have. Pictures??

http://www.beneteau.com/Sailing-Yachts/Sense/Sense-43

 

[Bongo]

Regina 35 ticks lots of box's ...suspect pic. is of a 38.though. There's s 35 one on the Alde/Ore.
Unfortunately they are lots of ££'s..

 

[wully1]

I too get fed up looking at the ( nice) woodwork inside my last boat- and of spending days getting soaked, wind blasted and frozen to get to some beautiful anchorage and then go below and stare at the wood instead of the views.

I sold that boat and got an Eclipse 33 which for sailing up here is just about perfect for a couple. No way would I take it out in 'proper' weather and seas though..

I now really enjoy my sailing and can easily steer from inside if it's wet , cold or miserable outside. If I was in the market for a bigger boat I wouldn't have may options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8xMovpjnc Waquiez might be one.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2005/Jeanneau-Sun-Odyssey-43-DS-2736309/France#.U_ITo7xdXyc This might be another.

Or maybe an Eclipse 38 if I could find a good one.

 

[roblpm]

View attachment 44799
Regina 35 ticks lots of box's ...suspect pic. is of a 38.though. There's s 35 one on the Alde/Ore.
Unfortunately they are lots of ££'s..

Yes that looks the same idea as the Nordships and the Nauticats. Expensive as you say! And as no-one else seems to agree with me that it might be a good idea, not many second hand ones around!

It must be that I am a complete softy thinking its a good idea! Looking at the view is obviously not part of going sailing!

 

[RIBW]

+1 for Moody Eclipse.
a 33 if you sail 3 handed or less (or 2 couples)
a 38 if you want more room.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/category/type/Moody/Eclipse+33

Great for cross channel and making the most of those in between days when the rain persists. We spend no more than 5% of our seatime steering from inside. It also saves having damp kit hanging around.
Moored up our west country river it is like having a country cottage with magnificent views even in the colder months (thanks to the Ebers).
Cheers
Bob

 

[roblpm]

I too get fed up looking at the ( nice) woodwork inside my last boat- and of spending days getting soaked, wind blasted and frozen to get to some beautiful anchorage and then go below and stare at the wood instead of the views.

I sold that boat and got an Eclipse 33 which for sailing up here is just about perfect for a couple. No way would I take it out in 'proper' weather and seas though..

I now really enjoy my sailing and can easily steer from inside if it's wet , cold or miserable outside. If I was in the market for a bigger boat I wouldn't have may options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU8xMovpjnc Waquiez might be one.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2005/Jeanneau-Sun-Odyssey-43-DS-2736309/France#.U_ITo7xdXyc This might be another.

Or maybe an Eclipse 38 if I could find a good one.

So why no proper weather?? Windows? Windage? Too light weight?

Just dialled the numbers in to sail calculator and get a displacement ratio of 253 which pretty medium I thought! A HR 342 which has a traditional saloon but nice big windows appears to have a displacement ratio of 196! The old coffins with no windows like a Contessa 32 or a Westerley Discus (which Bob Shepton did the NW passage in) which I would buy if I was a real man have displacement ratios of just over 300.

So maybe you are underestimating the capabilities of your Eclipse?