Red Diesel

[broadcaster]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Hi,

Having read the posts, nobody has had a valid reason for not taxing red diesel, just a lot of fingure pointing at other industries who pay less tax (such as airlines).

Given this is a leisure sport and that the majority of other leisure activities are taxed without concession, why should our pastime be excluded from contributing tax. Those people who drive for pleasure pay full tax on fuel and also pay road tax. Also those in petrol powered vessels pay full tax, why do we discriminate against them when they are involved in the same activity. Basically it is loophole which is being closed and everybody knows it.

I think it will have a possible short term affect on boat prices and marina's, but long term things will just balance out. If you look at Holland as previously mentioned, diesel boat prices aren't hugely different to ours despite the fact they pay normal fuel prices. If it does result in uneconomical engines being phased out then it will have the desired affect on reducing emissions, regardless of how painful it will be to boat owners and where the tax goes.

Although I will be hit by the increase, I really can't see a valid argument for not taxing diesel. A further worry is the other pollution resulting from boating, namely the rubbish which seems to litter the sea and coastal areas. I live in walking distance of the Hamble and the amount of rubbish washed up is incredible. Just by looking at the type of rubbish, a lot is from boats.


Andy


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[Neraida]

Re: tk is right

I'm going to have to disagree with ken, Marina operators waiting lists ar mainly full of MoBo's (I have asked), but I cannot see the "simple economic truth" is the supply and demand argument when applied to a service industry such as Marina's.

The huge investment needed to develop and run a marina (massive costs in the public liability area) means that with the marina at 70% capacity, these costs will have to end up somewhere, ie, the punter. I honestly think that thinking there will be a reduction in marina berthing charges due to a reduction in boats is ludicrous. The whole industry will suffer, chandlery, yard work, engine servicing costs will all rise as people desperately try to hang on to their livelyhoods.

The knock on effects of this whole thing will be huge, job losses, industry decline, and general boating woe.

I really feel for the MoBo guys and gals who work their guts out to pay for their £50-150k pride and joy, only to have it devalued by 50% overnight due to thoughtless, overspending, irresponsible, and allegedly public misleading govenment!

If I put my "Blinkered yachtie" head on, all for a bit less wash in the Solent.. hardly worth it i say.

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[lyc]

Re: Your trip and the environment

<<Although I will be hit by the increase, I really can't see a valid argument for not taxing diesel>>

Diesel is taxed but at a lower rate than road fuel.

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[Shakey]

"BTW, does anyone know how to convert a marine diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil from the chip shop? "

YES, why?

Cliff,
'Cos then we can run boats on a cheap tax free readily available fuel and the debate over red diesel will be over. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>At the end of the day - Sunset.

 

[AndrewB]

Campaign of 1?????

Your view has been put many times before on this board, see e.g. postings in <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=ym&Number=299358>this thread</A>. It's one of things that puts us raggies right up the noses of the stinkpotters on MoBoChat, serves them right of spilling our G&T's with their nasty wash.

What RYA are playing at here I really don't know, suppose they are hoping that can woo a few stinkie subscriptions to help keep them in their expensive Hamble premises.

 

[broadcaster]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Sorry I meant at a "reduced" tax rate.

Andy

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[rickp]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Taking the figures for the largest, long haul (and not yet in service anywhere) plane will of course help your argument. The fact still remains that these planes produce vastly more pollution than the entire leisure marine sector in the UK and yet don't pay tax on their fuel. Jumping on the environmental bandwagon over red diesel (which is taxed already) whilst ignoring polluters that are many orders of magnitude worse is somewhat ludicrous (and probably hypocritical in many cases).

Rick

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[boatless]

As far as I can see (and please correct me if I'm wrong - quite likely!) the tax collected on road fuel is collected as one tax, enabling fudges of all sorts to be used as justification for rises. So, whatever it was used for at it's outset, recently it is being increased to curb pollution. Generally, I don't have a problem with that.

However, if fuel duty were split into components, I can see that a far more equitable solution could emerge. So, for road vehicles, hypothecate a tax for road building and maintenance, another for cost of policing, another for emergency services, etc etc etc, as many as you like. Now, be honest Gordon, and make the total of all of these exactly equal the present level of duty. In the future, you can adjust each of those elements in line with the cost of providing each service. Easy to do and easy to explain to the public.

Now, create a new pollution tax added to all fuel sources for all users, based only on the energy content of the fuel in question. Now we all have an incentive to service our cars, look for more efficient central heating, switch off lights, more efficient boat engines etc etc etc.

If we're all paying the same pollution tax I can't see any reasonable sailor/motorboater complaining?

If boaters campaigned for that I think the public might possibly be swayed. Simply shouting that it's not fair will never work because they don't know the history.

btw. Anybody know how much pollution is created in the manufacture of a square metre of Dacron?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[Nauti Fox]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Hi Andy,you use Holland as an example,where they pay 49/57p a litre,do you think that is what we will pay?I dont.
Al

<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.

 

[cliff]

""BTW, does anyone know how to convert a marine diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil from the chip shop? "

YES, why?

Cliff,
'Cos then we can run boats on a cheap tax free readily available fuel and the debate over red diesel will be over. "

O.K. there is no mystery about it but remember we are going to need a lot of fish and chip shops!

Joking aside it is actually more economical to but industrial cooking oil in bulk drums than start to prat about cleaning up the old stuff. There are some companies starting up now recycling old cooking oil so there will be competition for the old stuff.

Using old stuff the biggest problem is getting all the crap out of it, basically filtering it - slow as death using cold gravity filters better to use hot pressurised filteration.

No, swmbo's old pair of tights won't do.

AS there are many people on this forum I will not go into details - might be accused of defrauding HMG.

For our purpose once the oil has been properly filtered and cleaned all you have to do is add the "magic ingredient" in the right proportions and you have "sunflower diesel"

There are other additives which are beneficial in controling waxing, coking, seperation, and of course the all important centane rating but thise are readily available in your local high street.

"magic ingredients" needed to treat say 200litres would come to ...carry one.......drop the zero....add........ divide by....mmm.. £12.50 at todays prices until TB liar gets wind of it and taxes the damn cooking oil.

Work it out for your self - even buying new cooking oil it is cheap gogo juice or should that be MoBo juice.

No need to alter engine settings or anything. Mind you anything burning this will still smell like a fish shop.

Better to buy industrial cooking oil in bulk drums - also easier to carry on board - it is already in the drums.


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[extravert]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Comparing the total emissions produced by the leisure marine sector with the total emissions produced by the aviation sector is also rather ridiculous. I would guess that in this country there are 1000 people who fly at least once a year for every mobo owner. Of course aviation's total is going to be much higher.

Let's say as an average flyer I fly 2000 miles per year at 50 passenger mpg. That's 40 gallons burned at my expense. Equivalent to 40-80 miles in a mobo.

For one person's idea of a leisure day out, the emissions produced by a mobo is extraordinarily large. You just cannot get away from that.


<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.

 

[Shakey]

Re: the pollution made by a square metre of Dacron, just found this...

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3691749.stm>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3691749.stm</A>

<hr width=100% size=1>At the end of the day - Sunset.

 

[jhr]

Dutch Fuel Duty

Agreed, although I think our best chance of limiting the damage is to press for "parity" with the continent - after all, that's all the EU is insisting on, rather than that prices have to rise to exhorbitant UK levels. In which case, we might still end up with lower taxed diesel for marine use and it might even be red.

I'm afraid, however, that even this is probably a vain hope, given Labour's previous track record on the UK yachting industry and disregard for its welfare (imposing a "luxury" rate of VAT on boats etc.) I fear that full price diesel will be coming to a marina near you, soon. In which case it will, of course, be high quality, ultra low sulphur etc. Won't it?

The pollution and consumption argument is all good, emotive stuff but doesn't cut much ice with me. The overall contribution that leisure boaters make to C02 emissions is negligible compared to that chucked out by industry and (biggest offender of all, I believe) electricity generation. But that's another story.........

<hr width=100% size=1>Je suis Marxiste - tendance Groucho

 

[jimi]

Re: tk is right

Erm .. the counter argument to this is that if road fuel is detaxed then the price of cars will shoot up .. do'nt see that happening ..

<hr width=100% size=1>I Have The Body Of A God... Buddha

 

[Shakey]

Cliff,

Re: the esterification(?) of cooking oil to make diesel, is it a relatively easy process? Could it be a garden shed type operation?

I personally think the non-availabilty of bio-diesel in this country is verging on the criminal.

<hr width=100% size=1>At the end of the day - Sunset.

 

[halcyon]

Re: Your trip and the environment

A report the other day said that airline flights were due to double in the next 10 years.
Is there any developement on trans-Atlantic jumbo sailing ships? Even diesel powered ones could be in service next year, thus reducing greenhouse gasses dramatically, far far more than anything the leisure industry can do.
No and why, they use a suitable media, and we all have to agree, and we appear to, and pay more taxes, and the gass goes on.


Brian


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[broadcaster]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Hi,

No, but it shows that the price is the same as at the roadside pump. The pump price in the UK doesn't affect car usage much and it is unlikely that it will in the long term affect boat usage if red diesel is fully taxed. It will just take a while for it to be an accepted cost for the sport. In terms of the total cost of running and buying a boat it is not such a huge increase in reality. Only those who really use their boats a lot will be really affected. If I look at the marina's up and down the Hamble, most don't get used that much.

Andy

Andy

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[rickp]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Thats just the 'polluter pays' argument though, which I thought was my point. Why should the airlines get off tax-free? Because they're relatively efficient seems to be your stand point, whereas I think they should be taxed in the same manner as DERV/red-diesel/etc.

Rick

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[AlexL]

Efficient car engines can be developed because millions and millions are manufactured. Nobody is going to bother to develop new marine engines as the manufacturing volumes cannot justify the development cost - unless you want to pay a serious premium when you purchase the engine. Also There is no correlation between fuel tax and the environment. The environmental argument is a blunt instrument sold to the gullable public to justify massive tax hikes.
If we, as a country, were really serious about reducing CO2 emissions then we would stop generating electricity and stop flying jet airliners. period. Nothing else, not removing every car from the road and every boat from the water will even make a dent.
I have no desire to see the aviation industry damaged but whilst the government build new airports and provides tax free Jet A1 (effectively diesel) , and we keep expecting to fly to europe for a tenner then there is no environmental argument, not even a tiny one, to justify any increase in any fuel tax wether for road or marine use.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by AlexL on 07/05/2004 14:28 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[cliff]

Cliff,

Re: the esterification(?) of cooking oil to make diesel, is it a relatively easy process? Could it be a garden shed type operation?

Yes it is tool shed technology - I see you have been readin up on the subject

here is one method:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/page208.htm> >>> Click Here<<< </A>

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