Red Diesel

[extravert]

Re: Your trip and the environment

> I think they should be taxed in the same manner

So do I, but I don't expect it anytime soon.

I think there are many reasons why aviation fuel is not taxed...

1) Affects everyone, therefore a vote loser.
2) Big powerful industry with lobbying capability.
3) Aviation industry having a hard time.
4) Unless all countries do the same, it will hurt our airlines.

Whereas looking at the same points for leisure marine...

1) Affects few, who probably mostly won't vote for this government anyway
2) Small industry, only half hearted protest
3) Leisure marine industry doing OK
4) We are the exception amongst close neighbours

<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.

 

[cliff]

If you really want to make your own fuel check these folk out - they run weekend courses on making your own bio Diesel

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or
Telephone 01296 714184
email:lili@lowimpact.org
post:
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Redfield Community
Winslow
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MK18 3LZ


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[Sunnyseeker]

Well said...

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[Neraida]

Re: tk is right

Ohhh!! Picky-poo!!

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/postlist.pl?Cat=&Board=wanted>Stuff Wanted </A>

 

[Johnnygil]

how about taxing walking on the streets its wearing out pavements.

Lets be fair who pays for the upkeep of these and we allow the population to walk on them for free

my god how much could we get per step???????

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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[Nauti Fox]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Andy you say the pump price does'nt affect car usage,but how can you compare this to boats.Its totally different.I suppose the only way we would know is if a previous example exists of a leisure industry that has had a three fold increase in fuel prices.Anyone know of this?
Al.

<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.

 

[flaming]

Are you really telling me that if Sunseeker and the rest weren't selling boats because the fuel consumption was too high that they wouldn't invest in reserch? In any case most of the base work has been done by the car companies, it's not as if they'd be starting from scratch!
I'm not suggesting that there is a correlation between tax and pollution, I haven't seen the results of any research into this matter. What I was trying to say is that if car fuel it taxed for this stated purpose why do we expect to be treated any differently?

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[tcm]

Re: off you go then matey

yeah, off you go then matey, you pay the tax. Others will be abroad, or re-registering as a commercial vessel to use commercial diesel, and praps not be domiciled here and/or pay no income tax either.

Now, i wonder what sort of people we'd get in government? A ninny who pays all the taxes and can't see how to save any money at all, and sees tax as a way of feeling a bit virtuous? Someone who think that by taxing/spending more, things get better? They don't.

Pro-rata, the cost of running every single good organisation goes DOWN and not UP. Otherwise we call them rubbish companies and they go bust. Only government-owned orgainsations with guns can break this rule, and tax something anything to make up for being a bit rubbish.

Those who like paying to make for their continued defincies, or who don't see why they shouldn't pay - are their valid prey. That's you, that is.

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[Aja]

Just had a look at your profile. You dont have a leg to stand on mate.

Regards

Donald

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[Twister_Ken]

Marina waiting lists?

Well, maybe, but the Hamble marinae had no problem accomodating new 'residents' last year.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[TwoStroke]

Just trying to make a point that such a drastic jump on running costs will have a shake out of the industry, and that everyone will feel the effect somewhere along the chain. Cheers.. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[TwoStroke]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Most boats that don't get used (from knowledge in Brighton), that's because they run on petrol. Those that use diesel are out and about. The boat opposite me runs twin petrols, £300 plus fill up!! Has had the boat for many a year now and is now getting expensive to run. The same will happen with diesel.

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by TwoStroke on 07/05/2004 16:46 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Planty]

If you've ever read any of the MoBo chat elsewhere you will know that there are an awful lot of us that defend the right of Sailors to relatively calm seas around there intended course, moorings etc. Despite us probably experiencing some totally unjustified attack from such Sailors at some time.

Might I suggest that the vast majority would find it unbelievable that ANYONE could really want to pay MORE Tax, thus the vast majority would, possibly justifiably, conclude your comments reflected a hidden agenda. One already mentioned here, possibly, "Cracking opportunity to get rid of MoBo's" possibly not, (I doubt it).

Thus taking both thoughts together, how do you think your attempts to "seperate" boating into 2 camps will affect you, in the short term? Could it be possible, that MoBo's, less educated than ourselves, knowing that Sailors are in fact so non supportive of MoBo's leisure pursuits as to ask for a Tax Increase, and from some stated opinions could take pleasure from seeing them persecuted. Thes MoBo's could derive a similar abhorent and ridiculous pleasure in ensuring you did not enjoy your pastime by ensuring the roughest waters are always just around a Sailor, perhaps??

Please do not read this as a threat or otherwise, just as stupid a response as one can imagine to such a purile argument. Those of us that are dedicated to harmony between Sailors and MoBos do really despair sometimes.

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[broadcaster]

Sorry but what a load of rubbish, "keep out if doesn't affect you". Not all tax affects us directly, but how the total tax burden is met does, if red diesel is not taxed the money will have to be raised elsewhere and this could affect all of us. In essence there is no logical reason to have reduced tax on red diesel for leisure use, regardless of how you look at it. All other leisure activities are taxed at normal rates, so why should boating be different. It was a loophole exploited for a long time and it is just coming to an end. Those people with petrol boats have always had to pay more, simply because the engine was petrol and there was no loophole. They use the same water, same type of boat etc.

As to the economy of the industry, it will simple adjust itself and boats will not just disappear. Many sports boats are petrol powered and they are still used, the total number of large engined diesel motor boats is not that high as a proportion of the total boating leisure industry and will not cause a massive drop in the economy. In total revenue, I believe other forms of craft, RIB's, Yachts, Dinghy's, petrol powered sports boats will form a large chunk of the industrys sales of anti fouling, electronics etc. Also even if for example 30% (which I think is high) of motor boat owners decide to sell their boats, others will come along to take their place, especially if as you believe motor boats will drop in price. This drop in price will simply off set the higher fuel costs.

It's sad that this will affect you, but there is no justification not to tax red diesel other than the fact that a small minority want a cheaper leisure activity and that is how the public will view it.


Andy


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by broadcaster on 07/05/2004 17:08 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[MedDreamer]

Hmmm..............

but your petrolhead neighbour still has his boat and pays his marina fees which would seem to mitigate the argument that there would be a mass exodus from boating.

Didn't want to contribute on here because

1) Didn't like the anti MOBO sentiments and
2) I've already expressed my opinion on this matter too many times.



<hr width=100% size=1>Living the dream

 

[broadcaster]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Hi,

Purely commenting on my experience of having an office in a marina, lot's of boats (sailing & motor) are only used a handful of times a year. So as a percentage of the total costs of keeping the boat, the increase in fuel probably won't make a huge difference.

But that is of course only my estimate from what I have seen.

Andy



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[TwoStroke]

Re: Hmmm..............

At the moment he's in catch 22. He's looking at going diesel but with the possibility of similar running costs, he is I'm afraid looking at diverting his money elsewhere. To what he's not sure yet. So yes, there could be an exodus if this comes through without it being thought through.

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[Birdseye]

"broadcaster" bbc by any chance? anyway there are, imho, two bits of tosh in your post.

the first is "the money will have to be raised elsewhere " . Why? Why cant the government live within its means like the rest of us have to do? Why cant it stop throwing money at any poilitically conceived priority? Why does it have to pay £5 for a 10p bag of sweets all the time? Why is it so incredibly wasteful?

the second is "there is no justification not to tax red diesel ". There doesnt have to be. There has to be a justification to tax it. And it should be a good one but seldom is.

I agree with you that the position of red diesel is anomolous, particularly compared to the haulage industry, but the sensible solution is to abolish the tax elsewhere, boost the real economy and cut back on govt waste. all imho /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

As I said earlier, the industry of high powered fuel guzzlers is a fairly new phenomenon.

Out of interest how many MOBO owners now would consider changing over to sailing if the fuel price was to treble?

Surely that would be the more logical outcome or would you all just pack up and go home.


<hr width=100% size=1>J

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>

</A>

 

[TwoStroke]

I enjoy sailing, the wife doesn't. Am looking at going bigger and diesel too. If the costs start going up big time, then will probably keep a little sportsboat for the fun and divert my funds elsewhere. It's one of the few things we enjoy together so we won't lose out totally - but that's the last the boating industry will have of my money - unless my accountant can be creative!!

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