Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Try this URL
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again
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Red Diesel
- Thread starter SimonJ
- Start date
Shakey
New member
I think it can be boiled down to this:
We already have the highest fuel prices in Europe.
Why should we pay road tax on marine fuel?
There will be an adverse knock-on effect throughout the maritime industry.
It seems to me to be another New Labour stealth tax.
BTW, does anyone know how to convert a marine diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil from the chip shop?
<hr width=100% size=1>At the end of the day - Sunset.
We already have the highest fuel prices in Europe.
Why should we pay road tax on marine fuel?
There will be an adverse knock-on effect throughout the maritime industry.
It seems to me to be another New Labour stealth tax.
BTW, does anyone know how to convert a marine diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil from the chip shop?
<hr width=100% size=1>At the end of the day - Sunset.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Flying pollution
Agree wholeheartedly. and have campaigned against tax free jet fuel, but just get some drivel from the Dept for Transport blaming IATA agreements as the reason they can't do it. Testicles.
A good place to start on this is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again
Agree wholeheartedly. and have campaigned against tax free jet fuel, but just get some drivel from the Dept for Transport blaming IATA agreements as the reason they can't do it. Testicles.
A good place to start on this is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
You\'ve lost me
MDL will struggle to fill their marina with raggies as alot of them prefer £300pa in a pile/swinging mooring. I make that a 20% hike in marina costs.
Normal laws of supply and demand state that when supply exceeds demand prices decrease.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
MDL will struggle to fill their marina with raggies as alot of them prefer £300pa in a pile/swinging mooring. I make that a 20% hike in marina costs.
Normal laws of supply and demand state that when supply exceeds demand prices decrease.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>
TwoStroke
New member
Re: Flying pollution
Quite like the landing slot charge - but would I trust the government to actually spend that money on a better infrastructure??? Cynical I know. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by TwoStroke on 07/05/2004 12:21 (server time).</FONT></P>
Quite like the landing slot charge - but would I trust the government to actually spend that money on a better infrastructure??? Cynical I know. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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Nauti Fox
Well-known member
Re: You\'ve lost me
Unless they can make more money selling up.
Al
<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.
Unless they can make more money selling up.
Al
<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.
TwoStroke
New member
Re: You\'ve lost me
From previous posts where booking visitor berths can be tricky, wouldn't this indicate that most marinas are working to near full capacity already, so filling up the berths would not be a problem for them?
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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by TwoStroke on 07/05/2004 12:27 (server time).</FONT></P>
From previous posts where booking visitor berths can be tricky, wouldn't this indicate that most marinas are working to near full capacity already, so filling up the berths would not be a problem for them?
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flaming
Well-known member
It does seem to me that if you are "punishing" one group of fuel consumers for poluting (road users)it is bizarre that another should not be punished.
Surely the justification for taxing road fuel is to promote the development of fuel efficient cars to reduce the polution of road users. And to a large extent this is working, there are now many car ads which focus on how fuel efficient the car is as manufacturers strive to make engines more efficient. I'm not one to advoctae more tax, as a poor student I can barely afford to fill my car up as it is, but compare the type of cars previlent in the UK with their US counterparts and you will see what the effect of this tax has been. And the US just continues to produce cars with massive engines, poluting more and using more fuel from the dwindling reserves. Is this responsible?
So extend this to marine users. At the moment the marine industry is akin to the american car industry. No one is all that interested in fuel consumption because fuel is so cheap. But cheap fuel is just as polluting and uses just as much of the reserves as expensive fuel.
Now consider what the effect of a tax increase may be. Certainly in the short term it would hurt. But the marine industry would then start to think like the UK car industry and fuel efficient boats (and that goes beyond just engine efficiency) will start to be produced. After a period of time you arrive at the situation where the user is paying relatively little more for the same journey as they used to do in their old fuel inefficient boat but producing far fewer polutants and using much less of the reserves on route.
Is this a bad thing?
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by flaming on 07/05/2004 12:34 (server time).</FONT></P>
Surely the justification for taxing road fuel is to promote the development of fuel efficient cars to reduce the polution of road users. And to a large extent this is working, there are now many car ads which focus on how fuel efficient the car is as manufacturers strive to make engines more efficient. I'm not one to advoctae more tax, as a poor student I can barely afford to fill my car up as it is, but compare the type of cars previlent in the UK with their US counterparts and you will see what the effect of this tax has been. And the US just continues to produce cars with massive engines, poluting more and using more fuel from the dwindling reserves. Is this responsible?
So extend this to marine users. At the moment the marine industry is akin to the american car industry. No one is all that interested in fuel consumption because fuel is so cheap. But cheap fuel is just as polluting and uses just as much of the reserves as expensive fuel.
Now consider what the effect of a tax increase may be. Certainly in the short term it would hurt. But the marine industry would then start to think like the UK car industry and fuel efficient boats (and that goes beyond just engine efficiency) will start to be produced. After a period of time you arrive at the situation where the user is paying relatively little more for the same journey as they used to do in their old fuel inefficient boat but producing far fewer polutants and using much less of the reserves on route.
Is this a bad thing?
<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by flaming on 07/05/2004 12:34 (server time).</FONT></P>
TwoStroke
New member
Can understand where you're coming from as have had similar thoughts. However, the smallish boats wouldn't take too much a price dive, as the little fishers and sport boats prove. It's more the larger boats, where you could have £30-40k plus drop in value. With cars you're looking at 5% of that - a very large difference. I don't know anyone that could afford such a drop.
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cliff
Active member
"If the government decided to introduce a sq footage sail tax "
Now there is one we missed, must tell Gordon about that one on Monday!
"Treasury spooks and others may also read these forums"
Never a truer word was spoken!
Out of the mouth of babes!
Knew if I trolled through these boards long enough I would find other taxes which can be imposed on the rich so we can keep giving money to illegal immigrants and illegal refugees.
Thank you - any other ideas anyone?
Now there is one we missed, must tell Gordon about that one on Monday!
"Treasury spooks and others may also read these forums"
Never a truer word was spoken!
Out of the mouth of babes!
Knew if I trolled through these boards long enough I would find other taxes which can be imposed on the rich so we can keep giving money to illegal immigrants and illegal refugees.
Thank you - any other ideas anyone?
cliff
Active member
Re: Red Diesel *DELETED*
Post deleted by cliff
Post deleted by cliff
extravert
New member
Re: Your trip and the environment
No need to perform the calculations, it's on the BBC's news website today for the new Airbus A380...
Airbus also promotes the A380's environmental credentials -- it does 95 miles to the gallon per passenger.
Makes mobos at 4 passenger miles per gallon seem rather greedy on fuel.
<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.
No need to perform the calculations, it's on the BBC's news website today for the new Airbus A380...
Airbus also promotes the A380's environmental credentials -- it does 95 miles to the gallon per passenger.
Makes mobos at 4 passenger miles per gallon seem rather greedy on fuel.
<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep tri-ing.
flaming
Well-known member
Maybe owners of these boats could club together, get them shipped to the states and sell them there!
No chance of the US administration ever levying any sifnificant fuel tax. Not with an oil mad Texan in control anyway.......
Seriously, you could never change an industry so fundamentally without hurting anybody. I remember a saying along the lines of "never spend any money on a boat that you ever want to see again." You buy a boat because you can afford to and want to have fun on it. It's not like a house which can be considered an investment as well.
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No chance of the US administration ever levying any sifnificant fuel tax. Not with an oil mad Texan in control anyway.......
Seriously, you could never change an industry so fundamentally without hurting anybody. I remember a saying along the lines of "never spend any money on a boat that you ever want to see again." You buy a boat because you can afford to and want to have fun on it. It's not like a house which can be considered an investment as well.
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Nauti Fox
Well-known member
But are we punishing for polluting or am I being cynical in thinking of it as raising revenue?
<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.
<hr width=100% size=1>No dear,the water goes in the other one.
tcm
...
Re: tk is right
no, speaking to marinas, thje confirm that if they have a massive waiting list - the price can go up. No waiting list or empty spaces means the price is held or comes down or at least subject to bending. A half-empty-marina reduces the demand for other services - mainly electricity which i think is the primary profit centre
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no, speaking to marinas, thje confirm that if they have a massive waiting list - the price can go up. No waiting list or empty spaces means the price is held or comes down or at least subject to bending. A half-empty-marina reduces the demand for other services - mainly electricity which i think is the primary profit centre
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tico
Well-known member
Bloody hell Jules according to your calcs (£120 / 400 galls) you are paying 30p/gall
any chance of you sharing where you buy it??
<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt
any chance of you sharing where you buy it??
<hr width=100% size=1>Been there, done that, got the oily T shirt
cliff
Active member
"If the raggies don't think it'll effect them, it sure will if they have to call the RNLI or any of us to help them - sorry sir can't come out as we can't afford the fuel - unless of course you have £500, c/c please"
Firstly, I think you will find the RNLI will still get red diesel, secondly I will remember your comments next time a MoBo needs towed away from a lee shore (rocky) coz his engines won't start. Guess what? a "Raggie" had to answer the distress call he could be along side the "vessel in distress" in a few minutes and no one else was in sight.
Comments noted so to all you MoBos out there better start carrying your papers coz next time I'll be claiming salvage rights (10%) or £1000 CUF (cash up front).
Seriously though, anyone who would even think of demanding payment to render assistance to another vessel does not deserve to be on a boat let alone own one.
Remember - one day it might be you in dire need of rescue - even if it is only a tow to save your boat.
Back to the subject of diesel. Thought.... what about the change over period -we cannot suddenly go from using red to white overnight also the remains of the red will be in our tanks for a long time (an associate put red deisel in his car one night (by accident as he had two tanks side by side - one for red for the farm vehicles and one for white for the road vehicles and got the nozzles mixed up in the dark) he was caught 8 months later when C&I testers dipped the tanks on all the road vehicles at the farm and they found traces of the chemical marker still in the tank)
So what about buying our diesel before the deadline and storing it or having the marina "bunker" it for us for a nominal fee. I mean if it is prepaid then why not - better I go to the farm and fill up there 5 jerrycans is enough to do me all year.
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Firstly, I think you will find the RNLI will still get red diesel, secondly I will remember your comments next time a MoBo needs towed away from a lee shore (rocky) coz his engines won't start. Guess what? a "Raggie" had to answer the distress call he could be along side the "vessel in distress" in a few minutes and no one else was in sight.
Comments noted so to all you MoBos out there better start carrying your papers coz next time I'll be claiming salvage rights (10%) or £1000 CUF (cash up front).
Seriously though, anyone who would even think of demanding payment to render assistance to another vessel does not deserve to be on a boat let alone own one.
Remember - one day it might be you in dire need of rescue - even if it is only a tow to save your boat.
Back to the subject of diesel. Thought.... what about the change over period -we cannot suddenly go from using red to white overnight also the remains of the red will be in our tanks for a long time (an associate put red deisel in his car one night (by accident as he had two tanks side by side - one for red for the farm vehicles and one for white for the road vehicles and got the nozzles mixed up in the dark) he was caught 8 months later when C&I testers dipped the tanks on all the road vehicles at the farm and they found traces of the chemical marker still in the tank)
So what about buying our diesel before the deadline and storing it or having the marina "bunker" it for us for a nominal fee. I mean if it is prepaid then why not - better I go to the farm and fill up there 5 jerrycans is enough to do me all year.
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Jools_of_Top_Cat
New member
Thank you for finding my error. I was actually wondering how I had got the calculation so wrong. I looked at it, doubted my maths over and over but could not see where I had come up with such a high figure!
Feel better now /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
But it is still a lot of fuel
To the man in the street with his ford focus, 140 gallons is 14+ weeks of petrol, not a day trip across the Bristol Channel. You are never going to convince him that you are
a. Not stupidly rich
b. Justified in winging about such high increases.
c. Participating in a sport that he can aspire to.....
I understand that the last point may be a little controversial, but I have seen a few people considering a blockade, this can only work if you have the support of the majority, you wont unless you lie about consumption of big yachts. When the fishermen blockaded about quotas when the Spanish were still fishing our waters the people believed in the cause, when the drivers bloackaded the refineries the people believed in the cause.
Do you think people are going to worry about 140 gallons for a quick trip?
I will fight alongside the MOBO's for this cause, but I fear a losing battle, when people are now worried about price rises due to OPECs estimates and production quantities they are not going to look kindly at the above figures, are they?
I don't know what the answer will be, interesting points have been raised about the industry going unchecked for so long. 20 years ago most motor yachts were disp. with a single thumping deisel returning 1-2 galls per hour at around 8kts, now as demonstrated the whole industry has changed somewhat. An eye opener at boat shows where the MOBO's now totally outnumber the rags. I remember in 1984 I went to S'ton with my father, there were a few 21ft type angling boats and similar compared to the rest of the boats being raggies.
I have said before, I believe the current situation has been brought on by the industry, the sales of marina red deisel must be increasing year by year, to the point now that the tax return would be significant for the treasury to sit up and take notice.
If all the boats in the liesure sector were yachts using 0.3L per hour and filling up once at the begining of the season do you think G Brown would be arsed to even look at adding tax?
Just a thought.....
<hr width=100% size=1>J
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>
</A>
Feel better now /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
But it is still a lot of fuel
To the man in the street with his ford focus, 140 gallons is 14+ weeks of petrol, not a day trip across the Bristol Channel. You are never going to convince him that you are
a. Not stupidly rich
b. Justified in winging about such high increases.
c. Participating in a sport that he can aspire to.....
I understand that the last point may be a little controversial, but I have seen a few people considering a blockade, this can only work if you have the support of the majority, you wont unless you lie about consumption of big yachts. When the fishermen blockaded about quotas when the Spanish were still fishing our waters the people believed in the cause, when the drivers bloackaded the refineries the people believed in the cause.
Do you think people are going to worry about 140 gallons for a quick trip?
I will fight alongside the MOBO's for this cause, but I fear a losing battle, when people are now worried about price rises due to OPECs estimates and production quantities they are not going to look kindly at the above figures, are they?
I don't know what the answer will be, interesting points have been raised about the industry going unchecked for so long. 20 years ago most motor yachts were disp. with a single thumping deisel returning 1-2 galls per hour at around 8kts, now as demonstrated the whole industry has changed somewhat. An eye opener at boat shows where the MOBO's now totally outnumber the rags. I remember in 1984 I went to S'ton with my father, there were a few 21ft type angling boats and similar compared to the rest of the boats being raggies.
I have said before, I believe the current situation has been brought on by the industry, the sales of marina red deisel must be increasing year by year, to the point now that the tax return would be significant for the treasury to sit up and take notice.
If all the boats in the liesure sector were yachts using 0.3L per hour and filling up once at the begining of the season do you think G Brown would be arsed to even look at adding tax?
Just a thought.....
<hr width=100% size=1>J
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>
halcyon
Well-known member
I'm surprised they have not introduced an annual registration tax for boats, registration numbers etc, that would then allow them to collect light dues. This would be across the board, cover yachts or motor boats equally.
One point is that we have still not yet seen a survey of diesel prices across Europe yet, or did I miss it. At the start of the red diesel debate weeks ago I ask the same qeustion, still no answers, is there a reason ??.
Around 18 / 20 years ago when I started boating most people were working class, that is had to work to eat, now nearly all are wealthy / retired, and only a small amount are working class. This has been due mainly in area from mooring cost, increasing around 400 / 500 %. Now that we are increasing fuel prices we not effecting the rich in there new powerboats, it's the working class at the bottom of the pile with there old boat that they run on a shoe string. Boaters were a group at one time that looked after each other, in most areas, not concidering class or status. Now we are getting to a two class sytem, I'm rich look what I can affoed, and I'm green look at my halo, and *** to the rest.
Brian
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One point is that we have still not yet seen a survey of diesel prices across Europe yet, or did I miss it. At the start of the red diesel debate weeks ago I ask the same qeustion, still no answers, is there a reason ??.
Around 18 / 20 years ago when I started boating most people were working class, that is had to work to eat, now nearly all are wealthy / retired, and only a small amount are working class. This has been due mainly in area from mooring cost, increasing around 400 / 500 %. Now that we are increasing fuel prices we not effecting the rich in there new powerboats, it's the working class at the bottom of the pile with there old boat that they run on a shoe string. Boaters were a group at one time that looked after each other, in most areas, not concidering class or status. Now we are getting to a two class sytem, I'm rich look what I can affoed, and I'm green look at my halo, and *** to the rest.
Brian
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cliff
Active member
"BTW, does anyone know how to convert a marine diesel engine to run on used vegetable oil from the chip shop? "
YES, why?
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YES, why?
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