Red Diesel

[SimonJ]

Do not bite my head off guys as I am the last one who wants/can afford to pay more tax! But with my hand on heart I cannot find any justification for NOT paying tax. It seems entirely dishonest of the RYA, MBY etc to make any argument against paying the tax. For once the rest of Europe/the World may be right on this one.
Have heard there has been a case for light dues rumbling on etc while I have been away (yes, in a boat even), but if there really are taxes (for such purposes) that HAVE to be put on boaters this would seem one reasonable way. Anyway, the owners of the monstrous stinkpots that use the most fuel can surely afford to pay.
Where can I join the counter campaign in support of paying tax on red diesel?
Perhaps it will be a campaign of 1!
Simon

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[Joe_Cole]

Frankly, I agree! So it's a campaign of 2.

Joe

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[jimi]

and me .. campaign of 3

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[alec]

And me 4

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[Moose]

And what is this Tax going to pay for? Maintaining the sea must be pretty tricky!
If, in fact you only want to pay this tax so all the MoBo's are forced off the water and lose large amounts of money on worthless boats that nobody could afford to run then please do support it, I'm sure you will have a great time being the only person on the water.
It seems that some yachties are supporting the abolishment of red diesel to force their "enemies" off the water, this I find totally dispicable.
Perhaps, if you had spent all the money you had on a boat that you had worked for all of your life and were then forced to sell up because of the loss of red diesel meant you could only afford to use it 4 times a year you might take a different view of the situation.

Have fun!
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[AlexL]

I'm all for direct taxation by the people who use a service, as long as there is an associated reduction in general taxation, and therein lies the rub. The main objection (by me anyway) to this extra tax is that I've already paid it and will continue to pay it - TWICE. The specific arguments for and against the fuel tax and light dues are many and varied, however the plain financial fact is that this is just another back door tax hike.

The irony is that the whole concept of taxation at the point of use is the cornerstone of right wing fiscal policy. Left wing (i.e this lot suposedly) policy is supposed to fund everything from central taxation.

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[longjohnsilver]

"Anyway, the owners of the monstrous stinkpots that use the most fuel can surely afford to pay"

That may well be true but it's the thousands of smaller boats which also use red diesel which are most likely to be affected, and most of those are owned by people many of whom will be forced to give up their boating.

So who gains from that?

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[Mike21]

We do pay tax on red diesel, just not the road fuel duty element, which imho I do not see why we should pay this for non road use.
<Anyway, the owners of the monstrous stinkpots that use the most fuel can surely afford to pay.>
That may possibly be the case for some owners, but what of the all the other owners who will find that a quadrupling of the cost of fuel will seriously curtail their boating!

I'm sure if you wish to pay more tax, that G Brown and his cronies will be more than happy to oblige, but imho, for those that support imposing road fuel duty on leisure boating ,they should be dealt with in the best traditions of King Henry VIII ie off with their heads/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[Moose]

Can you please explain why you want to pay more to run your boat?
What pleasure will you get from it?
Will you gain great satisfaction from paying a tax from which you WILL NOT derive ANY benefit?

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[scarlett]

A couple of weeks ago on the Red Diesel Forum, I said that I did not wish to pay any extra for my red diesel, [when I bring my raggie back to the UK]l but what were the arguements not to pay. I got a lot of people suggesting that I should not be asking the question but none with any reasoned arguements against the tax. Just because we get nothing directly from a tax is not an arguement that can be supported by precedent.

To cut a long story short I can think of a lot of other taxes that I would rather be reduced than one based on leisure activites. It would be nice if UK tax policy could be shaped by referendum but it cannot be so. My choice would be no income tax but higher taxes on consumption.

Everybody's case is different but the example given of someone struggling to keep a old 40 foot motorboat going doesn't tug too hard at my heart strings. Granted that the plywood hulk with some old lorry diesels may not be a huge capital investment but most 40 foot motor vessels must be worth a few bob. The fuel cost for a few careful trips a year can't be that much compared with the other boating costs. And many ways of reducing the consumption are in the hands of the owner.

I am happy to listen to other's thoughts.

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[longjohnsilver]

"Everybody's case is different but the example given of someone struggling to keep a old 40 foot motorboat going doesn't tug too hard at my heart strings"

Nobody's asking it to tug at your heartstrings, it's just a fact that many UK boaters will give up, and as I've already said who benefits from that?

Praps best you stay in Greece!

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[AlexL]

Scarlet thats what I said - I'm all for tax on consumption AS LONG AS THE GENERAL TAXATION IS REDUCED, however as it will not be, and is showing every sign of being increased then I, for one, will continue to oppose the tax on fuel. For resoned arguments. The extra fuel on road diesel is for roads. red diesel is allready VATable so it is allready taxed, we just don't pay the ROAD TAX bit. as I find it very hard to sail my boat around the M25.

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[alec]

It's not that at all Moose.

It was good for us all while it lasted.

Bunce if you like.

Cannot believe that anyone who owns a fuel hungry boat of ANY kind did not feel that it would end one day.

Power Boats v Sailing Boats is a different issue I think.

The RYA Campaign for RED when viewed by the non boating public is going to do us all more damage than anything we have seen so far. Crackers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Anyway, If you lob off the upstairs steering station you will be back to square one again, even with the increase. Hamper is for Christmas.

And don't forget - we're all a bunch of prats , power or sail if we don't dig the oar in. We can all still have fun though despite the increase, by shunting the buggers off the water and into the mud. How many takers for an oar tax petition ?








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[Joe_Cole]

1. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the sea will be maintained! Very few taxes are raised for specific expenditure...not even Road Fuel tax. The vast majority of tax goes into central coffers.

2. Nobody has even hinted at "getting at Mobo's" as you have suggested. I can assure you that I have no desire to force anyone off the water (not even jet ski's) and I am surprised that you feel able to tell me that that's what I want to do.

The original post on this thread said that it was hard to NOT justify this proposed tax. This is probably the political reality; the majority of the public will be surprised to hear that boats (whether sail or motor) use tax free fuel. It is a "soft target" and you may well have to accept it as such.
I would, however, suggest that you are unlikely to win many over to your point of view with this "them and us" view of the boating fraternity.

Joe

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[longjohnsilver]

Joe, this them and us argument does seem to come to the fore with this particular issue, seems all those who want the tax increased are sail boat owners. That's not to say all sailboaters think the same way, thankfully.

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[Moose]

Perhaps you should look back at the views of many sailors on this forum over the past few months. You may be surprised how many times the "this will get rid of the MoBo's argument" comes up.


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[webcraft]

This isn't a 'we hate stinkies lets get rid of powerboats' issue and to present it as that is misleading to say the least.

The cost to the consumer of a tax on diesel is directly proportional to how much of the stuff you use, whereas a flat rate light dues tax (for example) isn't. It's like the difference between Council Tax and a local income tax.

So - a tax on diesel is much fairer. It's also a carbon related tax.

I think the crux of the matter is that this is NOT an argument the RYA can win with the general public. I think they should concentrate their efforts in areas where there might just be a chance of convincing the non-boating public and government - eg light dues, no licensing, letting us keep our drinks cabinets etc.

As for big powerboat owners having to give up boating - nonsense. If the cost of diesel trebles and they can no longer afford it then they will just have to either get a boat that uses one third of the fuel their old one did or cut their mileage according to their financial cloth.

- Nick

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[steverow]

The problem you chaps always miss is that fuel tax is way way higher here than anywhere else in Europe.
This will QUADRUPLE the cost of marine diesel in most cases.
The rest of Europe pays an average of about 45p per litre, we will be paying about 92p per litre, so wheres the justice in that?
How can it be fair for my fuel bill to rise from £120 to nearly £500 for a 150 mile round trip???? (2 X Perkins 150hp), and how on an educational salary can I ever hope to afford to go anywhere in my boat if the tax hike comes in. I am not rich !!
I notice that all of you who advocate the tax hike are sailboat owners. Now lets be honest, the fuel tax increase isnt going to affect you guys that greatly is it....
So what other reason could you have for actively supporting an increase....Oh no it couldnt be that you are secretly hoping all motorboats will either cease to exist or have to remain in harbour could it.????...surely not?
If it's not going to directly affect you then keep out of it. You have no idea of the harm that you are doing. This is NOT a joke. The shock will be too much for large sections of the marine industry to bear....given that mobo's spend proportionately
far more than sailors on their hobby.
Everything from antifoul to radar will rise significantly in price, as chandlers try to claw back some of their lost revenue...those that survive of course.

So please stop being silly about it and just think a little bit further than the tired old raggie versus stinkpot juvenile games.
It's time for everyone to unite against this because it will affect us all, mobo and sailor alike in the end.

Steve.




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[nicho]

Since ditching the motor cruiser at 12/15 gph, for a sail boat with a Volvo 2030 at 0.4 gph, you are confusing me with someone who gives a damn!!

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[Moose]

Well Said

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