Red Diesel

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Are you saying you use 400 gallons of fuel to travel 150 miles?

I do not want the prices to go up, though my costs will be fairly insignificant compared to yours obviously. if I were you I would not shout too loudly about your fuel consumption, your average member of the public who is also interested in environmental issues is not going to be very happy to hear you shouting about that when he struggles to fill his car tank for his weekly work and short social mileage. The guy also has a family to rear etc.

I agree with others, you are going to have to come up with a better argument than its going to cost too much to travel a few miles in my shiny new boat. You need to concentrate on important matters like reliability and safety and of course British jobs. Maybe you will also have to strike a compromise and accept 17.5% or more. From what I see the MOBO fraternity is coming to the table offering nothing, well HMG is hankering to tax everything, so is it not time to make them an offer?

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[steverow]

J,


Pegasus....
Birchwood 35 Semi dis flybridge cruiser. Displacement 9 tons.
Cruises at 12 knots, top speed about 15 Knots.
Engines 2 X Perkins T 6354 @150hp each.
Fuel consumption at cruising speed about 8-10 gallons per hour depending on conditions.

Swansea to Padstow 80 miles approx, time about 7 hrs.
Current diesel price in Swansea 25p per litre (approx £1.25 per gallon.)
£1.25 X 10 = £12.50 per hour at cruising approx.
Round trip from Swansea to Padstow and back = 14hrs approx @ £12.50 per hour.
£135 at current prices.

If diesel goes up to the same price as road fuel, then you can almost quadruple that price.......say 92-95p per litre.
£500 quid for a wet weekend in Padstow....I dont think so. I can get a late deal in Tenerife or anywhere for that easily.

They are the stark economics facing even moderately sized ageing powerboats like mine.
For me it just wont be viable and I will have to sell the boat (if I can).
It affects those of us who are not on the south or east coasts and who have longer cruising distances between destinations disproportionately more. It seems so unfair.
Perhaps now you can see why I get so annoyed with sailors who advocate the abolition of Red diesel for leisure use. They just dont understand the harsh economic realities facing all mobo's and the marine industry in general.


Steve.





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[Joe_Cole]

Steve,

Lecturing Raggies and effectively accusing them of being out to get the Mobo's is not the way to win them over. If you want people to unite on this issue I think you should try a different approach.

I think that most raggies will have sympathy for Mobo's, but they are simply trying to address the political reality of this.

You should be fighting the politicians not the Raggies. As I have said elsewhere I don't go for this "them and us" stuff.



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[TonyBrooks]

This may be a statement of fact, but those facts can be altered by personal choice. Admitadly not as much as one could alter them if other decisions had been made some time ago.

I just do not see how the aergument could hold sway with anyone with an interest in boating and with sympathies towards responsible behaviour.

Now my data

54ft, displacement between 10 and 16 tons (never been weighed), 34 bhp, floating brick - consumption between about 1 to 1.5 hours pelr litre. - the 1.5 hrs with plenty of water about.

The difference is mine is a displacement hull operated well within its hull design speed.

OK planing and semi-planing hulls will return worse figures at displacement speed and 34 bhp is probably not enough for confidence at sea - but I was felt secure enough punching the tide in the London River.

Just for an experiement, try running at (say) 5 or 6 knots on one engine (because it may be operating more efficiently than two at that speed). Work the tides and make smaller hops where possible.

I think you will find you could more than pay for the tax with reduced consumption.

I am sorry for those who's choices have now landed them with a probable masive hike in fuel bill, but not so much sympathy. The tax will almost certainly come, and although we should oppose it, arguments relating to "diesel guzzlers'" costs will get as much public support as whiges from supercar owners whenever petrol tax goes up.

Much beter to point out possibel damamge to the econamy and employment - but research it first, so you have figures to back it, and then negotiate to try to minimise the tax.

Now the lights tax is another thing all together - unless they exempt boaters who go nowhere near their lights, I think their could be some real fun. I alreday pay for my navigation markers in my license(s), so will I get a reduction?


Tony Brooks

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[Twister_Ken]

Your trip and the environment

As I work it out your return trip Swansea to Padstow will use approx 36L of diesel per hour for 16 hours (rtn trip), or 580L round trip. At 2.7kg of CO2 emissions per L of diesel used, that's over a tonne and a half of CO2 that the world really doesn't need. And that's leaving aside the other byproducts of burning hydrocarbons, some of them toxic or carcinogenic. That's an awful lot of environmental penalty just for the sake of a pint of cider and a cornish pasty.

Is your trip really such a good idea ?

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[Evadne]

You're right. Most raggies use very little diesel so it's not a problem that affects us. After several diesel bug incidents I now use yellow diesel exclusively as it's cleaner. At 2 pints per hour it doesn't break the bank. If you want to convince me why I should care about red diesel you should concentrate on the injustices to yourself, and to the power boat makers. I'm surprised I've not heard the likes of Sunseeker being a bit more vocal.
If someone has the figures to hand, it is often quoted that they on the continent pay full tax on their diesel, which is why we are being pushed that way. How much is diesel in Germany, Belgium and France?


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[Oldhand]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Yes, I for one am very concerned about global warming and the ever increasing number of excessively engined cars and boats is doing nothing to address the causes. One rarely hears of the contribution of greenhouse gases made by ships, boats and aircraft (the latter most worryingly).

As we obviously can't regulate ourselves to reduce CO2 emmissions, then making fuel increasingly more expensive to consume is the only obvious deterrant. This will no doubt be one of the main excuses used to increase taxation on red diesel by the government. Those who buy and use products with increasingly powerful engines are the people who encourage the manufacturers to keep on producing "gas-guzzlers" and in my opinion only have themselves to blame when fuel taxes are continuously increased.

A survey of boat owners to see if the those who have the most powerful boats also have the most powerful cars might be interesting... If taxation on red diesel rises perhaps owners of heavy fuel consumption boats should consider changing thier road transport to say a Micra diesel to reduce their fuel costs and CO2 emmissions?

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[Twister_Ken]

Diesel price overseas

How much is diesel in Germany, Belgium and France?


See here

Strikes me if Red is abolished, we'll see lots of UK owners making a trip to France or Belgium to fill up.

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[Joe_Cole]

Re: Diesel price overseas

Ken,

Your link doesn't appear to be working

Joe

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[steverow]

Joe,

I picked up on this thread because I was appalled to find sailors trying to start an active campaign in favour of red diesel tax increase.
Whether tongue in cheek or not, it is unhelpful.
Treasury spooks and others may also read these forums to guage sentiment.

To be honest from the messages I have seen, there dont appear to be that many sailboat owners that have any sympathy.

The only way to fight this is on a united front.

We are all mariners. If the government decided to introduce a sq footage sail tax I would oppose it and fight it on exactly the same grounds that it would have a detrimental effect on the marine economy generally.

What chance do we have if we cant even carry our fellow mariners with us, most of whom seem to be actively advocating a tax hike because of some ancient inter-mariner fued.

Steve.




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[rickp]

Re: Your trip and the environment

Care to perform the same calculation for an airliner flying to a popular holiday destination? 'Thats an awful lot of environmental penalty just for some cheap sangri' - and its pumped out at the worst place possible. I bet there are more than a few people here who are saying 'put the tax on red diesel up' whilst making use of very cheap air fares.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - if the principle is 'polluter pays' - then fine, as long as everyone pays.

Rick

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[Joe_Cole]

"It seems so unfair"

I'm sorry Steve, but to many people it will seem unfair that you use £500 worth (at the prices they have to pay) of fuel on a single leisure trip. That's far more fuel than many use in a whole years worth of leisure driving and it simply reinforces the view of this being a rich mans pastime.

I do understand the economic realities of what is being proposed and how it affects you. All I ask is that you try to understand the political realities of what you are up against. At the moment you sound like the drunk complaining about the price of his whisky! You need to present your case differently if you want to be effective.

Joe

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[Neraida]

Moosey Moose...

Just to add another string to your bow, but not taking sides, (I am a petrol user, so I pay road duty regardless, yet to find a supplier of red petrol) I have had a little think about this.

Its all very well for some raggies thinking that this will only affect MoBo owners cos they don't use any/much red diesel, BUT...

MDL for example need £0.75m per year to run a 500 berth marina. They like to make profit, so lets say £1.5m pa. Of those 500 berths, lets say 250 of them are MoBo's, and lets say 150 of them are red diesel burners. So... (bear with me) guestimate that 100 of those 150 are "normal" people like us who will have to think about ditching their boat if we go to 90p/l. MDL will struggle to fill their marina with raggies as alot of them prefer £300pa in a pile/swinging mooring. I make that a 20% hike in marina costs. Add on the lost revenue from the fuel berth and normal corporate cost increases you're looking down the barrel of a 25% price rise. Fancy that? I know I don't.

Another couple of pence per litre to improve revenue for HM coastguard I would deffo agree with, but tax for the sake of tax, because a government is borrowing shedloads of money AGAIN and has realised that the country is heading for bankruptcy AGAIN, well, I think you can tell my opinion.



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[Evadne]

To fight on a united front we have to have a common cause. Portraying the tax as way of forcing thousands of boat owners off the water, leaving power boating as a rich man's hobby is certainly valid, and although the tax wouldn't affect me directly, the loss of revenue to the industry certainly would. Look around any marina and you'll see a lot of power boats. Take them away and the marina may not be viable, may go bust and get turned into waterfront housing.

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[Robin]

Re: Your trip and the environment

And that includes the USA the biggest culprits all round. I fail to see why WE should pay a huge penalty to cover our emmisions whilst they carry on doing what they want.

That said the principle is all wrong anyway. High taxes on fuel (or congestion charges in London whatever) just means that is OK for the rich to pollute because the poor will have to reduce or give up their usage to compensate, the rich will not change their habits one little bit.

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[Guest]

who cares

I thought we were all ditching our engines for oars and mobo's will become robo's and we will all be healthier and richer and will live longer and this will put a bigger strain on the NHS and then HMG will tax us more for living longer......so...might as well pay the tax now?!?

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[stephenmartin]

Good Answer Neraida

If MOBO's have to pay more for red diesel then so should the trawlers, ferries and all other commercial boats that use red diesel, we'll soon see how much we all pay in the long and maybe short term, food, goods and everything will cost more.....

Truckers don't get any concession so why should fishermen then we can buy english fish from the spanish shipped here on boats using cheap european red diesel......

Enough said children....you have all seen this film.....a bit more of little Britain will be killed off, and everbodies hand is on the dagger unless we all say no....

A little bit more tax ok but 3-4 times you have to be joking....I'll get my cheap red diesel from France with my cheap beer....only more often and gladly pay French taxes.....

Gordon won't take me alive

For the record...I'm a MOBO and strongly disagree with the proposed tax that will probably become a reality

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[Nauti Fox]

I just don't understand why this is going on.Starting with lets campaign for a tax increase.It does'nt affect you so why go down this path?Surely not to gloat at other boat users that will have their pastime destroyed.I just find it so despicable that because it does'nt cause you distress its just a joke (why else would you ask for a tax increase)and then try to justify it by talking about emmisions etc. I foolishly thought that an increase in tax would have to be justified,not the other way round.I really am sad to see that it is turning into a yacht v mobo scenario,I thought we were all united in a love of being at sea in whatever vessel we chose.
It seems I was wrong.
Al.


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[Beagle]

Re: Diesel price overseas,: Dutch facts

Price of Diesel in Holland @ roadside service stations: 0,74-0,86 eurocent/liter. This is about 0,49-0,57 GBP/liter. Prices at marina's, water sided stations are about 5% more.

Fact1: people with small tanks have an advantage, they're able to get diesel in cans from roadside stations.
Fact2: general rule in Holland: the poluter pays. In this case 'big-spenders' (you call them gas-guzzlers??) even slightly more since it's not very pratical to fill big tanks by means of cans.
Fact3: still plenty of mobo's this side of the North Sea.

I'm the last one to involve in a UK tax discussing. On the other hand, environmental issues are not sticktly bound by country borders, it's a global issue so I could have an opinion about that..........

Rene

<hr width=100% size=1>Never under estimate the strength of human stupidity<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Beagle on 07/05/2004 12:04 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[TwoStroke]

Would the lot of you grow up please!

If the raggies don't think it'll effect them, it sure will if they have to call the RNLI or any of us to help them - sorry sir can't come out as we can't afford the fuel - unless of course you have £500, c/c please. I can foresee your membership costs jumping BIG time, together with engine servicing, marina costs etc... It will effect you.

Time we supported it together.

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