Red Diesel

[Aardee]

I guess the other question is how many MoBo's would revert to more economical displacement & semi displacement boats. Motor boat ownership doesn't have to involve 20+gph consumption!

I suppose a lot will depend on what is most important, the destination or the journey...


<hr width=100% size=1>"I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me" - A A Milne.

 

[oldgit]

Re:Hope this helps.........

If anyone is about to flog off their shiney white gin place with its horrid monster fuel guzzeling engines at a knock down price can they contact me.I need a new bigger boat.Am fully prepared to search under my car seats AND down the back of the sofa to come up with the required wedge./forums/images/icons/laugh.gif/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>If it aint broke fix it till it is.

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Sailing.

Well, given that SWMBO won't accept a sailing boat, smalls are too small to pull ropes and we moor on the Thames, not really an option.

I wonder what the Environment Agency wiil say to the boats operating at the margins that are abandoned on the rivers, being too expensive to fuel. Ditto British Waterways.

Being an underpaid NHS employee with a wife who's job moved out of viable commuting range and is therefore doing agency work at monkey money, finding £500 for fuel for a voyage is _already_ fantasy land. I am therefore fundamentally against any increase at all.

And for the greens out there, I don't own a car, or a driving licence; I cycle or take the bus to most destinations. If everyone is entitled to some carbon use then the boat can count as my share.


<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[nicho]

I asked the same question recently on MBM site, and got no response whatsoever. I think they are in denial!!

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[halcyon]

If they did were would all the power boats go? who would buy them? and would you expect the UK powerboat firms to close, or start making yachts from scratch?


Brian



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[broadcaster]

Hi,

Not BBC, but in broadcasting.

"Goverment live within it's means" - Now you are in the realms of fantasy

If they could cut back on waste we would all be better off and I could afford a big motor boat and expensive diesel fuel. Actually I probably could even buy a big petrol engine if that ever happened.

Trouble is it is a tax loophole used by a small number of people (no votes lost there), so that's how it will be justified, I doubt it is to do with emissions really.

Only my opinion.

Andy





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[Joe_Cole]

Sadly you are right.

It's obvious that many people don't like the idea of more tax on Red diesel, but nobody seems to have yet come up with clear reasons that can be used to dissuade the politicians from introducing this. I think that the view will be that a few people will be upset, but many more will be glad to see the fuel guzzlers paying what will be seen as "their share". Vague talk of the effect on the Marine industry won't win the arguement unless the Mobo fraternity can support their case with real evidence.

In reality what will happen is that increased tax will be phased in over a few years. Some Mobo's may give up, some will reduce their boating, some will take it easier on the throttle, some will downsize, some will move to sail and some will try to get their crews to contribute more. Many will continue as before, and gulp when it comes to paying. There will be some changes, but nothing dramatic. It won't be the end of civilization as we know it.

I take no delight in saying this, but unless a better argued case is going to be made I see no alternative.

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[scarlett]

Where do you get the 30 to 40 grand loss from? If this is say 10% of the price it is another world away from me. Can somone spending £350 000 on a boat have a problem paying a £1 a litre for fuel?

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[Joe_Cole]

If I spent £350,000 on a boat then I'ld really have a problem paying £1 a litre!

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[scarlett]

It is purely a revenue thing. If the goverment was serious about energy issues it would have raised road vehicle taxes on the previous adminisration's so called 'escalator'.

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[scarlett]

I am sorry to say it but it is a long time, about 100 years, since road tax was spent on roads. More recently N I ceased to become insurance and became a tax.

It would be nice if we only paid the tax for those services from which we benefit -- but then a lot of people would be due for a rebate on education. tee hee

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[scarlett]

Re: Your trip and the environment

5] and aircraft can take on fuel where it is most economical to do so, all things considered.

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[scarlett]

I write as a raggie. Your story is hard to believe- just because to spend £ 135 on fuel to go to Padstow is well out of my league. But I don't understand the economics of owning a motor boat.

How much is you boat worth when diesel is £0.25
What do you think it will be worth when diesel is £ £1?
How much do you spend on diesel a year now?
If your boat is economically unsaleable could you re engine your boat with smaller, more efficient units and get better figures?
Are there smaller motor boats that could safely do the trip you describe?
What would be their fuel consumption for such a trip compared with yours?

I ask all this because many on this site, and me to the fore, don't understand the troubles of motor boat owners.


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[Nickel]

Tax always has one or two principal functions - firstly to raise revenue for the government, and secondly to alter behaviour.
Although tax on marine deisel will fulfil the first, it's peanuts in the government's cake - it's the second that is in point here.
When the Chief Government Scientist says that Global Warming is a greater danger than terrorism, a viewpoint I agree with, then government policy to reduce carbon burning is clearly a behavioural prod in the right direction.
This stinkie v raggie argument is a distraction - the argument is carbon burning v the future of the planet for our children.
I know where my vote is - and yes I sail - but that's irrelevant. I would support higher taxes on petrol, carbon sourced electricity, and gas.

Nickel



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[AlexL]

No it wouldn't. I can't believe half the country have actually bought into the whole "increase tax for environmental / energy reasons" - it is totally bogus. If you drew a chart of the biggest carbon contributors they would be electricity generation and aviation - private cars and boats would be in the <5% "other" category - so what would be the point in reducing carbon output from something which is not particularly significant to start with. Can we please accept that this is a TAX, has no effect whatsoever on the envronment or energy usage, yes maybe less diesel will be used but it will be bugger all of 3/5ths squared percent of the total and wouldn't even be noticed by any statistition analysing anual diesel usage.
Besides the environmental argument is supposed to relate to GLOBAL warmning, not solent warming.
This is a TAX nothing else, and the MOBO manufacturing industry is the only one left in this country that is actually a world leader - so perhaps it would be a good idea not to kill it.

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[scarlett]

Thanks for moving the Red Diesel Argument here. I tried to enter the Red Diesel Forum but got a lot of flack but no reasoned arguements.

In conclusion [unless someone puts something really provocative on here ] I have read all 112 of them [when I started ] I am not anti motor boat and plan to get one in the forseeable future. [I am very aniti outboards over 2 hp used within 1 km of an anchorage !!!!]

Maybe it will encourage all of us to use our engines more efficeintly.

I would however ask everyone to turn their engine off when in a lock. Me in my little boat at the water line have had crew vomiting over the side in response to a big diesel running for over 20 minutes. I know there are arguements for leaving it running, even rules, but it is just one more thing to spoil somebody else's day. And you will save fuel.

Happy boating [and for those leaving us, while it lasts ]



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[colvic987]

''this is a tax and nothing else, and the mobo manufacturing industry is the only one left in this country that is actually a world leader - so perhaps it would be a good idea not to kill it.''

well put alex, you might have hit the nail on the head, 'manufacturing', Great Britain was a manufacturing nation, but aren't we supposed to be a service industry nation now, (better be quick , or i'll be late for my shift at the call centre)..

Stealth tax, just what the government ordered, easier to get the money, just do it?????


Shouldn't we all stick together as marine users, as other forumites have said, what else have they got lined up in the pipline, (diesel tax , light dues, we know about them), if they have an easy ride on getting that past, it will give them a green light to anything else they devise, to get the cash rolling in..


forget the 'stinkies this and raggies that', i am all for fighting for what we have, and not ''' remember when we could get red diesel'''


On a lighter note, have we hit a forum record, the most replies in 24 hours...

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[webcraft]

Re: Red Diesel - a purile argument

I note from your profile that your boat's name is Damn The Expense

So you won't actually be objecting to paying more tax then??

- Nick

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[webcraft]

Re: Red Diesel - Road transport not guilty

What rubbish.

One big problem with this thread is the unresearched and unsupported opinions masquerading as fact that people are spouting. You will be eaten alive by the big bad government tax monster because you are ignoring the facts, and serve you right IMHO.

Road transport emissions of carbon dioxide represent 22% of total UK emissions.

This is hardly 'insignificant' is it?

In any event, surely the most important measurement is the CO2 emission per person per year. The average person contributes more CO2 via road transport than via air travel. By the same token, operators of gas guzzling MOBOs have a far bigger personal CO2 contribution. How selfish is it to say that because there aren't many of you it is not significant . . . what if everyone wants one?

This one is NOT winnable - we should fight for the right of fishermen and the RNLI to keep red diesel, but not for leisure boaters - it just doesn't make sense economically or environmentally. Let's focus on winnable issues.

And yes - I'm a raggie and it won't affect me significantly - but this doesn't mean I hate MoBo owners - what a lot of paranoid nonsense that is.

One of the reasons I don't own a MoBo is because I think sailing is more environmentally attractive - but I don't mind other people doing it so long as they are prepared to pay a realistic cost and live with the consequences of their choices. That's a personal choice , doesn't mean we can't get on together.

- Nick



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[longjohnsilver]

Re: Red Diesel - Road transport not guilty

I'm afraid with "friends" like you and others on this thread, I really despair. My chosen hobby is not only boating but also diving, and getting to dive sites in a sailing boat is just not realistic. I therefore run a single engined motor boat but will probably give up both hobbies if the cost of fuel quadruples.

After 20 odd years that will be sad for me and my fellow divers but no doubt you and some of your sailing friends will think good riddance to another motorboater.

I have never in my experience seen so much prejudice against motorboaters as on this thread. It really makes me feel very sad. I always thought that when the chips were down that we'd all support each other but it seems I was very wrong.

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