rafiki_
Well-known member
nah, got to find students that really like me too much and I hate them immensely. Not easy to find either I think
V.
I would have thought this job perfect for a pair of scrotes.
MiToS re-built/fit- versilcraft Mystery43
- Thread starter vas
- Start date
I would have thought this job perfect for a pair of scrotes.
vas
Well-known member
update after yesterday's first proper day at work!
first of all nicely wrapped up bow:
Started working my way along the port side (that's were most of the damage due to leaking deck was at the first chine (if you call the first change of hull skin direction for the top at around the waterline a chine...)
It seemed there was a bulge from whereabouts the second cabin was till halfway the forward cabin. 1800W heat gun and trusty stripper at hand and shock horror, they've done an "interesting" patching work where it seems they've removed 1-2layers of the delam ply and replaced it with new ply that sits proud of the existing one nice one...
at some point the new patch sits 10mm proud.
Interestingly on the inside all looks fine (except for a series of ss screw pointy bits clearly visible and a point where two planks of timber have been slapped from the inside.
Well impressed, not.
The following is the result after 6h, cleaned around 4m and all slowly getting the full view... I quite like this industrial archaeology work
At the end started stripping the lower hull areas from bow towards stern and hope that by the end of the week I'll be in a position to start removing the fugly patches and with the help of George start rebuilding.
Iroko frames are solid, so this particular patch should be straight forward albeit time consuming. And yes I'll get the yard owner to help in choking up the whole side carefully before starting removing bits so that it doesn't go pear shaped (shouldn't really just to be more sure about it)
BTW, 6h@ MiToS + 5h teaching == knackered!
This morning when I woke up I felt like I've been repeatedly beaten up, everything hurt. Good thing is that neck is fine
So, two weeks off work, just eating and drinking is bad for a rebuilt project...
cheers
V.
first of all nicely wrapped up bow:
Started working my way along the port side (that's were most of the damage due to leaking deck was at the first chine (if you call the first change of hull skin direction for the top at around the waterline a chine...)
It seemed there was a bulge from whereabouts the second cabin was till halfway the forward cabin. 1800W heat gun and trusty stripper at hand and shock horror, they've done an "interesting" patching work where it seems they've removed 1-2layers of the delam ply and replaced it with new ply that sits proud of the existing one
nice one...
at some point the new patch sits 10mm proud.
Interestingly on the inside all looks fine (except for a series of ss screw pointy bits clearly visible and a point where two planks of timber have been slapped from the inside.
Well impressed, not.
The following is the result after 6h, cleaned around 4m and all slowly getting the full view... I quite like this industrial archaeology work
At the end started stripping the lower hull areas from bow towards stern and hope that by the end of the week I'll be in a position to start removing the fugly patches and with the help of George start rebuilding.
Iroko frames are solid, so this particular patch should be straight forward albeit time consuming. And yes I'll get the yard owner to help in choking up the whole side carefully before starting removing bits so that it doesn't go pear shaped (shouldn't really just to be more sure about it)
BTW, 6h@ MiToS + 5h teaching == knackered!
This morning when I woke up I felt like I've been repeatedly beaten up, everything hurt. Good thing is that neck is fine
So, two weeks off work, just eating and drinking is bad for a rebuilt project...
cheers
V.
rwoofer
Active member
Hats off to you.
I would have lost heart discovering something like that.
I would have lost heart discovering something like that.
vas
Well-known member
I just hope that's the worse I'll come across...
although coming to think of it, replacing all the decks wasn't trivial, wasn't underwater, but so what?
I had MiToS in the sea for 2 months following the delivery trip and the bilge pump was working for 30-40secs every quarter of an hour or so. I would see one of the leaks but I needed an arm half a metre longer and with two extra joints to reach it
Mind you, not excavated that patch yet, probably day after tomorrow, will keep you posted
V.
vas
Well-known member
quick update,
managed 3h today so it seems that the dodgy hull parts below the waterline can be done at a rate of 1sqm per 2h (give or take...)
Hoping that the stbrd side is cleaner so quicker.
This is a bit that went smoothly:
but overall these white patches (that surprisingly coinside with the frames) are a pig to clean so I'll leave them to a scarpel and not a heat gun. Looks like they are all only 2-3mm deep which means that they removed the delam first ply sheet and filled it in with some sort of v.hard and strong filler!
So next photo shows a clean patch around 1.6mX1.2m done in 4h
Since I'm up to my neck with real work, looks like I'll employ a mix system (8-12 in the office and 12-4 at the boat) so wait for the day to heat up a bit and then work outside in the cold (15C today)
cheers
V.
managed 3h today so it seems that the dodgy hull parts below the waterline can be done at a rate of 1sqm per 2h (give or take...)
Hoping that the stbrd side is cleaner so quicker.
This is a bit that went smoothly:
but overall these white patches (that surprisingly coinside with the frames) are a pig to clean so I'll leave them to a scarpel and not a heat gun. Looks like they are all only 2-3mm deep which means that they removed the delam first ply sheet and filled it in with some sort of v.hard and strong filler!
So next photo shows a clean patch around 1.6mX1.2m done in 4h
Since I'm up to my neck with real work, looks like I'll employ a mix system (8-12 in the office and 12-4 at the boat) so wait for the day to heat up a bit and then work outside in the cold (15C today)
cheers
V.
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vas
Well-known member
yet another update,
managed 7h in total yesterday and today, progress's good.
First chine almost fully stripped. Missing the final metre but it's a bit of a pig as the main pilar support the boat is there so not keen on doing it atm
spot the patches:
Interesting to note that most damage (caused by rainwater coming in and staying at the first and then second chine internally) are between the first and second chine. That's where a massive badly done patch still lives (will be replaced altogether). In order not to spend too much time in vain, I'm not cleaning the to_be_removed areas (i.e. bad patches) just cleaning there borders...
Moved further down towards the keel and things are clean if a not a bit damp down there. Ply is solid, will leave everything to dry for a week or two before progressing with CPESing or whatever needs be.
Patching removal and repairing starts on Tuesday.
I got an email from a good friend whist working at the boatyard yesterday with pics from snowclad Bath, I thought I'll post some different ones from down here to cheer/p1ss you up/off
cheers
V.
managed 7h in total yesterday and today, progress's good.
First chine almost fully stripped. Missing the final metre but it's a bit of a pig as the main pilar support the boat is there so not keen on doing it atm
spot the patches:
Interesting to note that most damage (caused by rainwater coming in and staying at the first and then second chine internally) are between the first and second chine. That's where a massive badly done patch still lives (will be replaced altogether). In order not to spend too much time in vain, I'm not cleaning the to_be_removed areas (i.e. bad patches) just cleaning there borders...
Moved further down towards the keel and things are clean if a not a bit damp down there. Ply is solid, will leave everything to dry for a week or two before progressing with CPESing or whatever needs be.
Patching removal and repairing starts on Tuesday.
I got an email from a good friend whist working at the boatyard yesterday with pics from snowclad Bath, I thought I'll post some different ones from down here to cheer/p1ss you up/off
cheers
V.
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rafiki_
Well-known member
Thanks Vas, yes the view is a little different here today. My greatest concern is the weight of the snow on Rafiki's canopy. I have seen them collapse under this weight before. We are expecting more on Monday, so will have to find a bit of time to brush off the current covering. Temps forecast below zero for the next week.
I've seen fewer patches on a quilt than your poor boat
Keep up the posts please.
. I've seen fewer patches on a quilt than your poor boat
Keep up the posts please.
vas
Well-known member
Thanks Vas, yes the view is a little different here today. My greatest concern is the weight of the snow on Rafiki's canopy. I have seen them collapse under this weight before. We are expecting more on Monday, so will have to find a bit of time to brush off the current covering. Temps forecast below zero for the next week
I've seen fewer patches on a quilt than your poor boat
Keep up the posts please.
got any more snow up there raf?
Down here, weather is suspiciously good, 12-13C at night
16+ daytime, with lots of sun. CH hasn't kick on over the last two three days... I'm afraid some snow will come our way soon!Back on the quilt project,
cleared out of the white stuff (epoxy, or some two part glue thing...) a few patches towards the bow just to check condition of ply and depth and all patches are around 2mm deep. Effectively only the first ply delaminated and cut off, replaced by this white thing. Happy to leave it as is on the small ones, just use some epoxy mat and fill it in (obviously after the 5-6coats of CPES I'll get to it first...)
Also sanded a sqm of stripped hull to see how it looks, and it's fine and solid.
George started work today, removing the dodgy patch done just above the first chine and although at the begining it was okayish, he was later on shocked by the lack of workmanship. There's a point that they removed the delam ply, left the lower skin (that was well bonded to the frame) and slapped a thin piece of ply. but it was too thin so they slapped another one on top that stayed proud of the hull by 4-5mm. Nah, no probs, use some filler and feather it up to above the waterline
Here's the whole port side at it's current state:
And now for something different
Looks like i'll be getting a telescopic passerelle, so got to get rid of the davits (that will enable me to cover up the stern properly so that I can soon replace the aft deck.
Am I right in thinking that I have to strip the inner skin of the transom in order to access the screws/bolts that hold them in place???
That's not a problem as I was going to remove them anyway, but I'm just wondering...
Davits are Whittall btw.
cheers
V.
rafiki_
Well-known member
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.
Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.
. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.
rafiki_
Well-known member
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.
Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.
. You have some substantial davvits there. How big was the tender? 30 footer? You will have to look at the ballast when you get rid of that much tin.Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.
vas
Well-known member
Still wintery here Vas, blizzard earlier, and temp down to -9 c overnight. Great
Good luck with the quilt. Looking good.
Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then
I guess these davits are going to be a good 50kg...
Tender was 2.7m rib with ripped baloon thingies that I stupidly threw away at the yard in Athens only to find out that it would cost me a few hundred euro to replace with hypalon stuff and make it as new
Did keep the 9.9hp two stroke engine, anchor, ropes, oars etc though
V.
rafiki_
Well-known member
Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then
I guess these davits are going to be a good 50kg...
Tender was 2.7m rib with ripped baloon thingies that I stupidly threw away at the yard in Athens only to find out that it would cost me a few hundred euro to replace with hypalon stuff and make it as new
Did keep the 9.9hp two stroke engine, anchor, ropes, oars etc though
V.
Just goes to show, one mans rubbish, is another mans rubbish, unless repairable, when it is more valuable rubbish
Divemaster1
Well-known member
Alf was saying that the passerelle I wanted to fit is too heavy, that will teach him then
I......
V.
Oii ... I just said that you'll have about 300 Kg hanging out on the back..., which is more than you have today, so it probably will be noticed...
vas
Well-known member
Alf,
I feel that whittall davits + old passerelle + ropes et al VS 140kg besenzoni is probably 50kg difference, no big deal.
The bathing platform wont be done this year, so don't know how and how heavy it will be.
However, I noticed as I was stripping antifoul, primer and other carp, that the original antifoul waterline is way higher than were the boat was sitting in the water last year (with full water tank and halfful diesel 500 vs 1200lt)
How much heavier are the Detroits it had vs the ivecos? I vaguely remember reading in a spec sheet that the ivecos are 650kg with the gbox each.
I also remember ppl mentioning (YPB I think!) that re-engineering boats with lighter engines alter seakeeping properties.
where I'm getting at, is that probably a bit more weight is going to be fine, obviously you want it a bit further front... but then again I have to fit a black water tank and a few other things that carefully placed should try to balance out the whole thing..
cheers
V.
I feel that whittall davits + old passerelle + ropes et al VS 140kg besenzoni is probably 50kg difference, no big deal.
The bathing platform wont be done this year, so don't know how and how heavy it will be.
However, I noticed as I was stripping antifoul, primer and other carp, that the original antifoul waterline is way higher than were the boat was sitting in the water last year (with full water tank and halfful diesel 500 vs 1200lt)
How much heavier are the Detroits it had vs the ivecos? I vaguely remember reading in a spec sheet that the ivecos are 650kg with the gbox each.
I also remember ppl mentioning (YPB I think!) that re-engineering boats with lighter engines alter seakeeping properties.
where I'm getting at, is that probably a bit more weight is going to be fine, obviously you want it a bit further front... but then again I have to fit a black water tank and a few other things that carefully placed should try to balance out the whole thing..
cheers
V.
Divemaster1
Well-known member
Not concerned about the ovarall weight... just location of it...
The DD's 6/71's are seriously heavy and they will have filled the ER pretty well at about 1,500 Kg each, with Allison gearboxes (1,200 without)... unless you had the lightweight ones (used in minesweepers), that shaved off about 200 Kg.. ..(you could also have had 6V/53's which were much lighter @ a meere 1,050 Kg each).
vas
Well-known member
morning all,
being keeping a photo track of the "operations" carried out at hull level, but realised I've not posted any photos so here are a few more...
So, portside waterline patched area just above and ending at the first chine. What the guys had done was strip the first layer of ply (on some areas the second one as well) and patched (literaly!) with a new piece of marine ply. This way the new strong piece was squeezing the slightly delaminated remaining layers onto the main iroko frames keeping it all together. On a couple of spots where the patch was not supported by a frame, they'd just slapped a couple of pieces of marine ply inside so that the ss (at least!) screws that "clamped" the whole thing together would find solid material to tighten against.
Er, hope it makes sense, not particularly good trying to explain structures/complex processes using text only. Hands and body should be part of it
so removed patch + rest of original ply. Nice detail of the ply pieces supporting the wedge patch
cleaned roughly the area, lots of glue on the first pic, work was pretty poor at that point...
following pic shows the extend of the final area removed making sure that the remaining ply is trully solid. You can probably spot the black line marking where we'll cut a straight line for the patching.
and here is the patch area after removing/cutting all old bronze screws and ss ones from the recent patches, with the lower chine beam/frame/whatever you call that piece sanded, cleaned and ready for fitting the new piece of ply.
So, all the old ply was removed (for the history the bottom two layers were exceptionally strong, solid and glued perfectly to the frames even after 35+ yrs, and that's reassuring!) and we now have a long strip removed. We marked the straight line for the cut for the new patch. BTW, hull side ply is 12mm only (I'd expect it would be 15, but nope seems that 12 is enough)
I want to do a reasonable job at joining the two pieces hence I'm now slightly stuck. My industrial archaeology work revealed that the original joinery of two sheets of ply was done with a (excuse the wrong terminology) slanted cut of the two pieces at an amazing angle. I mean the overlap was over 55mm!!! There's no way in hell I can cut the ply on the boat at such an angle with any accuracy. So I want to use a handheld router with a tip that will let us have 65+ degree angle (better than the typical 45 but worse than the original 25...) Of course a solid piece of 15mm ply will be epoxied on the inner side of the join strenghtening the join. Now, that is where I'm stuck as I have to order the tip in Athens and will be 50euro and a week at least to get it here. Since I'll be in Athens half of next week I'll do it on the spot then
Slowly moving my way to the stern, 6.5m of the overall 10.5m waterline is fully stripped, the rest will be done when I have the time and weather plays ball like it did most of the week but temps coming rapidly down and even worse wind is picking up... Seems that I can do around 1sqm (with keel and chines) in 2.5-3h, after that unsurprisingly the tools become "heavier" and the stripper blund. Interesting that the same tools work much better the next day
continued the cabin stripping where I managed to remove both beds in the second cabin, plus the drawer cabinet and today should be able to remove the door and the two floor panels so that I can get down to the hull to lightly sand the original grey bilge paint and get it cleaned and ready for CPESing.
Next mental deadline to fail to reach will be end of Feb for inner work preparation (hull, sides, ceiling) fully epoxied/painted/whatever so that I can start the slow re modelling process, route piping, bring cabling up front, new bulkheads for the two heads and redoing flooring et al.
cheers
V.
being keeping a photo track of the "operations" carried out at hull level, but realised I've not posted any photos so here are a few more...
So, portside waterline patched area just above and ending at the first chine. What the guys had done was strip the first layer of ply (on some areas the second one as well) and patched (literaly!) with a new piece of marine ply. This way the new strong piece was squeezing the slightly delaminated remaining layers onto the main iroko frames keeping it all together. On a couple of spots where the patch was not supported by a frame, they'd just slapped a couple of pieces of marine ply inside so that the ss (at least!) screws that "clamped" the whole thing together would find solid material to tighten against.
Er, hope it makes sense, not particularly good trying to explain structures/complex processes using text only. Hands and body should be part of it
so removed patch + rest of original ply. Nice detail of the ply pieces supporting the wedge patch
cleaned roughly the area, lots of glue on the first pic, work was pretty poor at that point...
following pic shows the extend of the final area removed making sure that the remaining ply is trully solid. You can probably spot the black line marking where we'll cut a straight line for the patching.
and here is the patch area after removing/cutting all old bronze screws and ss ones from the recent patches, with the lower chine beam/frame/whatever you call that piece sanded, cleaned and ready for fitting the new piece of ply.
So, all the old ply was removed (for the history the bottom two layers were exceptionally strong, solid and glued perfectly to the frames even after 35+ yrs, and that's reassuring!) and we now have a long strip removed. We marked the straight line for the cut for the new patch. BTW, hull side ply is 12mm only (I'd expect it would be 15, but nope seems that 12 is enough)
I want to do a reasonable job at joining the two pieces hence I'm now slightly stuck. My industrial archaeology work revealed that the original joinery of two sheets of ply was done with a (excuse the wrong terminology) slanted cut of the two pieces at an amazing angle. I mean the overlap was over 55mm!!! There's no way in hell I can cut the ply on the boat at such an angle with any accuracy. So I want to use a handheld router with a tip that will let us have 65+ degree angle (better than the typical 45 but worse than the original 25...) Of course a solid piece of 15mm ply will be epoxied on the inner side of the join strenghtening the join. Now, that is where I'm stuck as I have to order the tip in Athens and will be 50euro and a week at least to get it here. Since I'll be in Athens half of next week I'll do it on the spot then
Slowly moving my way to the stern, 6.5m of the overall 10.5m waterline is fully stripped, the rest will be done when I have the time and weather plays ball like it did most of the week but temps coming rapidly down and even worse wind is picking up... Seems that I can do around 1sqm (with keel and chines) in 2.5-3h, after that unsurprisingly the tools become "heavier" and the stripper blund. Interesting that the same tools work much better the next day
continued the cabin stripping where I managed to remove both beds in the second cabin, plus the drawer cabinet and today should be able to remove the door and the two floor panels so that I can get down to the hull to lightly sand the original grey bilge paint and get it cleaned and ready for CPESing.
Next mental deadline to fail to reach will be end of Feb for inner work preparation (hull, sides, ceiling) fully epoxied/painted/whatever so that I can start the slow re modelling process, route piping, bring cabling up front, new bulkheads for the two heads and redoing flooring et al.
cheers
V.
rafiki_
Well-known member
Very interesting Vas. So how do you think the builders achieved the original chamfer angle? Presumably this degree of chamfer was required to achieve the prerequisite bond?
When screwed and glued, does the wood "pant" (stretch and contract?). I am guessing it will, so the trick is to give the structure the flexibility to do so, but you know all of this.
When screwed and glued, does the wood "pant" (stretch and contract?). I am guessing it will, so the trick is to give the structure the flexibility to do so, but you know all of this.
vas
Well-known member
raf,
these vertical joints (all I've found is vertical) as lengthwise is the problem, top to bottom you have the chines stopping the continuity of the ply in regular intervals, are on double frames with a massive iroko plank (around 180X30 in section) all along the join. I see that the chamfer with the mating surfaces are in the middle and the screws securing the two pieces of ply to the underlying iroko are well OUTSIDE the chamfer area. So, it doesn't actually stress at all, and all forces are transfered to the iroko and via it to the frames in normal frame to ply manner. Simple and effective.
In essence I feel that the join between the ply sheets is not expected to be loadbearing, which of course makes you asking, why bother then? I think it's a matter of doing it properly so that it wont flake/delam etc. Mind you on the ply sections above the lower chine, I noticed that the joint area has suffered a bit and I had to be careful when stripping paint in patches that were damp as I tended to lift some of the top layer ply. Not a big deal though.
V.
these vertical joints (all I've found is vertical) as lengthwise is the problem, top to bottom you have the chines stopping the continuity of the ply in regular intervals, are on double frames with a massive iroko plank (around 180X30 in section) all along the join. I see that the chamfer with the mating surfaces are in the middle and the screws securing the two pieces of ply to the underlying iroko are well OUTSIDE the chamfer area. So, it doesn't actually stress at all, and all forces are transfered to the iroko and via it to the frames in normal frame to ply manner. Simple and effective.
In essence I feel that the join between the ply sheets is not expected to be loadbearing, which of course makes you asking, why bother then? I think it's a matter of doing it properly so that it wont flake/delam etc. Mind you on the ply sections above the lower chine, I noticed that the joint area has suffered a bit and I had to be careful when stripping paint in patches that were damp as I tended to lift some of the top layer ply. Not a big deal though.
V.
jfm
Well-known member
Great stuff Vas. The angle/overlap joint is called a scarf joint btw, or scarfing is the verb. It adds a nice benefit as you say in making the finsihed surface less prone to cracking by removing a "notch" ie a point or crease with different stiffness from the rest.
Ref the davits, the bolts will for sure be exposed if you remove the transom lining. But surely you want to keep the davits till you've done the aft deck, becuase they form a nice frame for your canvas tent?
Anyway, thanks for the pics. I'm enjoying following the story
Ref the davits, the bolts will for sure be exposed if you remove the transom lining. But surely you want to keep the davits till you've done the aft deck, becuase they form a nice frame for your canvas tent?
Anyway, thanks for the pics. I'm enjoying following the story
rafiki_
Well-known member
JFM, can you start a glossary of terms please, for us boating plebs? Maybe a drop down thesaurus?