Loss of yacht - lessons to learn

[Tranona]

The most pressing reason for liferaft use is generally fire on board, not extreme conditions, in that scenario it makes sense for rapid release from a position likely to be unchallenged by the initial outburst of fire and fumes.

Not according to published reports. The number of sinkings due to fire on board when the boat is at sea is virtually nil. Whilst it might be a perception that fire is a potential cause, there is little empirical evidence to support it. Suggest you look at the MAIB reports over the last 15 years which cover the majority of founderings involving leisure craft in UK waters or involving UK registered yachts and you will find very few examples of fire. Most fire incidents occur in port or at anchor and involve motor boats, not sailing boats.

 

[capnsensible]

You know I've never actually heard of anyone taking to a liferaft for that reason.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26780546

 

[sailorman]

wasnt that a possible gas bottle change

 

[capnsensible]

Dunno. Was a fire though with abandon to liferaft.

 

[jimi]

Not according to published reports. The number of sinkings due to fire on board when the boat is at sea is virtually nil. Whilst it might be a perception that fire is a potential cause, there is little empirical evidence to support it. Suggest you look at the MAIB reports over the last 15 years which cover the majority of founderings involving leisure craft in UK waters or involving UK registered yachts and you will find very few examples of fire. Most fire incidents occur in port or at anchor and involve motor boats, not sailing boats.

Interesting thread here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-338809.html

indicates that a statistical analysis will have a high error rate due to the extremely small sample size.

Leaves me drawing the conclusion that best mounted for catastophic failure and rapid deployment due to unforeseen circumstances.

 

[Tranona]

Dunno. Was a fire though with abandon to liferaft.

It is though a rare example. When you consider the almost universal use of gas for cooking on board it is amazing there are so few incidents. Many fires are caused by petrol refueling or poor storage or installation of gas systems rather than the actual use of open flames for cooking.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Uh? Don't think they set off with a leak, it was reported the day before they went missing.

I know. I suspect that the presence of a life raft, interalia, gave them the confidence to carry on, rather than make a distress call at once and abandon ship.

The life raft has to be a last resort. I don't think anybody sets off thinking it is an alternative to get home.

Of course. But in this case, with a situation developing over time, it sounds as if the crew may have seen it as a valid alternative to an immediate distress call.

At the time of the Fastnet in 79, I couldn't help thinking that LRs were basicly the same as the wartime aircraft types.

The big mistake made by many participants in That Bloody Race (drink!) seems to have been that a liferaft offered guaranteed salvation. Plus ça change, eh?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I'm wondering if there is any easy and cheap way to inspect the integrity of bolts other than by drawing them as visual inspection will not show anything unless its blindingly obvious.

I think some helicopters use a hollow main rotor shaft pressurised gas inside, and monitor for pressure drops. Maybe a bit overkill for keel bolts, though.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't think anyone knows how long before the disaster the leak was identified (or do we?) before the boat inverted. Doug of Stormforce mentioned he was in touch with crew, presumably by satphone, and the crew reported the water ingress. That was the last the owner heard from the crew.

I thought she had been leaking for at least a day before contact was lost.

 

[Tranona]

Interesting thread here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-338809.html

indicates that a statistical analysis will have a high error rate due to the extremely small sample size.

Leaves me drawing the conclusion that best mounted for catastophic failure and rapid deployment due to unforeseen circumstances.

But it is not a small sample - it is virtually the whole population. The number of founderings (from whatever cause) is extremely small and it is not possible to draw any "statistics" in the conventional sense. What you can do is draw common themes of causes, of which there are 3. Extreme weather, collision and structural failure. You will also find when you read the detailed accounts that there is no common pattern about the effectiveness of liferafts, except that they can be difficult to deploy, sometimes fail to inflate, are difficult to board, but can be effective in keeping people safe, particularly in planned evacuations or in benign conditions.

You will find that much of the support for pushpit mounting with automatic deployment comes from fishing boat experience which is not necessarily relevant to yachts or comes from speculation about what might have happened in incidents where there were no survivors. The Ouzo case is an example of the latter, based rather like the current incident where there is evidence that the crew were alive when they went in the water. However, it is a big jump between that and saying that they would have been able to board an inflated raft, given the difficulties reported by survivors in boarding rafts, even when deployed manually in a controlled manner.

 

[jimi]

But it is not a small sample - it is virtually the whole population. The number of founderings (from whatever cause) is extremely small and it is not possible to draw any "statistics" in the conventional sense. What you can do is draw common themes of causes, of which there are 3. Extreme weather, collision and structural failure. You will also find when you read the detailed accounts that there is no common pattern about the effectiveness of liferafts, except that they can be difficult to deploy, sometimes fail to inflate, are difficult to board, but can be effective in keeping people safe, particularly in planned evacuations or in benign conditions.

You will find that much of the support for pushpit mounting with automatic deployment comes from fishing boat experience which is not necessarily relevant to yachts or comes from speculation about what might have happened in incidents where there were no survivors. The Ouzo case is an example of the latter, based rather like the current incident where there is evidence that the crew were alive when they went in the water. However, it is a big jump between that and saying that they would have been able to board an inflated raft, given the difficulties reported by survivors in boarding rafts, even when deployed manually in a controlled manner.

erm .. to be totally pedantic it depends how you define your population as the MAIB only concerns UK vessels or incidents in UK waters.

However, what is relevant to leisure users is the ability to easily deploy a liferaft when required, my view is that in my usual circumstances mine is best done from the pushpit, I used to keep it in a shallow cockpit locker but could foresee circumstances where the locker lid might get jammed shut (eg if mast or boom came down and jammed it) and as its usually only the 2 of us it makes sense for me.

I'd rather stay in the boat in extreme weather anyway , I seem to remember that was one of the lessons of the Fastnet .. so in my mind the most likely scenarios for fast abandonment are: 1)Fire 2)Collision in fog.

 

[Neil_Y]

some quick figures on liferafts.

12 man 56kg Vol 120litres £1631

4 man 34kg Vol 80litres £1254


Prices are standard internet, not commercial user. http://liferafts.com/


So with a weight about half that of a clothed sailor, there must be a way of making a liferaft easily deployable, without having to drag it out of a seat under the helmsman, with the boat on its side.

Liferaft rental £180.00 four man for 4 weeks

 

[Nicholas123]

Just design & build the thing properly in the first place.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Just design & build the thing properly in the first place.

They thought they had done that with the Titanic.

 

[Nicholas123]

They thought they had done that with the Titanic.

They learnt from that mistake though did'nt they.With this keel business they just carry on falling off like confetti.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

They learnt from that mistake though did'nt they.

Indeed they did. They learnt that you can never guarantee a boat. The sea will always win in the end.

 

[Nicholas123]

Indeed they did. They learnt that you can never guarantee a boat. The sea will always win in the end.

Well clearly there are boats & there are boats.I wonder how many Spray replicas have had their keels drop off?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Well clearly there are boats & there are boats.I wonder how many Spray replicas have had their keels drop off?

I don't know, but IIRC even Joshua Slocum finally met a watery end. He and his boat were lost at sea.

 

[DownWest]

Well clearly there are boats & there are boats.I wonder how many Spray replicas have had their keels drop off?

Spray replicas are not very good upwind and useless in racing ( unless against others... has that ever happened?)

I know two people who have had to get off their boats in a hurry. First because of a galley fire, not far from Gib, no radio, but an RN frigate saw the smoke. Conditions gentle. Second: from hitting some unknown underwater object in the Carib. Rescued by fishermen, again out of VHF range and no SSB. Conditions moderate and he could not identify the leak, couple of days drifting in the dinghy. Both were pretty quick, in the 10 min range. Also before beacons were general. More recently, a mate was going to join a boat for a transat at the Canaries, the solo skipper had to pop his beacon when storm force seas bashed in his cabin after a drogue problem off Morocco. Commercial vessel picked him up after an Orion located him (no GPS in the beacon)

Oh, and what happened to Slocum? Presumed run down by a ship.

Edit: missed the previous post while typing (slowly)

 

[HunterWanderer]

So what I want is a boat where it is almost impossible for a keel to break loose. Its not too difficult to make keel fixings much stronger so that a grounding will not compromise the integrity of the hull. 2 rows of bolts 2" apart is probably enough to hold the keel in place but gives no margin for when things go wrong.