Loss of yacht - lessons to learn

[Tranona]

The most pressing reason for liferaft use is generally fire on board, not extreme conditions, in that scenario it makes sense for rapid release from a position likely to be unchallenged by the initial outburst of fire and fumes.

While you have had that experience, what you say is not supported by the evidence, at least not in the UK and Eire over the last 15 years or so since there have been detailed investigations into loss of yachts. Fire con board at sea is rare, but not unknown. Extreme weather, collisions and structural failure (often a combination of two of these) account for nearly all the incidents where a liferaft was deployed (or might have been).

 

[Nicholas123]

Fairly crass remark, eh? No big history of keels falling off 'like confetty', while quite a lot of these boats built. But I bow to your inside knowledge on the skills of the design team.

There have been enough reports of trouble with that type of keel.If you choose to ignore them it is up to you.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

There have been enough reports of trouble with that type of keel.If you choose to ignore them it is up to you.

Have there? I can only recall one report.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Have there? I can only recall one report.

There have been quite a lot of reports of problems with fin keels, but since almost all yachts have fin keels that's hardly surprising.

 

[Tranona]

There have been enough reports of trouble with that type of keel.If you choose to ignore them it is up to you.

Almost all of the very few failures have had a rational explanation and have usually occurred on racing yachts or other highly stressed situations, following groundings or collisions or boats not built to the design specification.

There is no history of keels of production yachts failing except in situations described above.

Cannot understand where you get the idea of "enough reports of trouble with that type of keel" unless you have access to information denied to the rest of us. If so it would be helpful if you could list all the reports and where they are published.

 

[Jamesuk]

While you have had that experience, what you say is not supported by the evidence, at least not in the UK and Eire over the last 15 years or so since there have been detailed investigations into loss of yachts. Fire con board at sea is rare, but not unknown. Extreme weather, collisions and structural failure (often a combination of two of these) account for nearly all the incidents where a liferaft was deployed (or might have been).

Where I probably agree entirely with this view where did you get the stats.

I'm interested: MAIB?

 

[E39mad]

There have been enough reports of trouble with that type of keel.If you choose to ignore them it is up to you.

Playing devils advocate there have been plenty of reports of major problems a yachts with different types of keels including encapsulated. If you chose to ignore these then it's up to you.

Sailing can be dangerous sport in any yacht design. You like some others on here seem to be blinkered that just one type of keel design is at fault.

 

[Twister_Ken]

We tend to think of grp boats as watertight, but when exposed to big seas and weather, there can be substancial quantities of water getting in from several sources, portlights, stanchion bases, mast gaiters, down the mast itself, patent shaft seals can weep when things get thrown around. Add in four wet people moving around and the odd lump of green spray down the companionway, suddenly a boat which was dry as a bonio in F4 in the Solent looks like a swamp.

How much water is enough to worry about?

Rule of thumb - anything inexplicable that requires more than a bucket and sponge to sort out.

 

[Robin]

Rule of thumb - anything inexplicable that requires more than a bucket and sponge to sort out.

Bilges are meant to be dusty on my boats and water is supposed to be on the outside. I have spent countless hours over many years and multiple boats hunting down leaks,both salt and fresh water ones and so far never found one emanating from a keel bolt. I really do not want to spoil that history either.

 

[Daydream believer]

An integral keel with encapsulated ballast.

Why not cast a tapered socket in the hull & plug the keel into that & then bolt up tight
Been done so nothing new
The socket distributes the load quite well & provides support to the keel in addition to the bolts
it allows a an aerodynamic fin to give better performance
Encapsulated fins are never going to perform well aerodynamically & are out dated technology
True some yachts with bolted keels have had problems but considering how many & considering the continued development of keels I do not think their use is bad- Unless one falls off with me on the boat!!!!

 

[Twister_Ken]

One of the reasons I choose Arcona is that the keel is not bolted to the hull, but to a substantial galvanised frame within the vessel. The same frame (a crucifix) also takes the rig loads, so the hull is - essentially - much less of load bearing structural element than in most boats. No reason that other builders should not use similar solutions (I believe X-Yachts do much the same) although there is a cost implication.

http://www.arconayachts.com/index.asp?p=About

 

[Tranona]

Where I probably agree entirely with this view where did you get the stats.

I'm interested: MAIB?

Yes. There are no reports from the MAIB of leisure vessels lost at sea due to fire. This does not mean there have not been any, just that they have not resulted in loss of life or been of wider public interest. There have been two motorboats lost recently through engine fires - one at low speed in harbour, the other off Portland and in both cases the crew were rescued. There have also been a number of fires caused by fumes, poorly stored gas or during refuelling, but these are boats tied up.

I know of at least 4 losses through fire in the Med and one recent incident in the Caribbean, but it is difficult to get more than news reports on incidents outside the UK. Reporting in the US is much more thorough than elsewhere (although more formulaic and tick box), but analysis shows that fire is not a significant factor in founderings at sea compared with the other 3 main causes.

 

[Mark-1]

According to the RNLI FB page they've had about 150 callouts due to fire in 2012/2013, maybe the breakdown of those might be interesting.

 

[Robin]

Yes. There are no reports from the MAIB of leisure vessels lost at sea due to fire. This does not mean there have not been any, just that they have not resulted in loss of life or been of wider public interest. There have been two motorboats lost recently through engine fires - one at low speed in harbour, the other off Portland and in both cases the crew were rescued. There have also been a number of fires caused by fumes, poorly stored gas or during refuelling, but these are boats tied up.

I know of at least 4 losses through fire in the Med and one recent incident in the Caribbean, but it is difficult to get more than news reports on incidents outside the UK. Reporting in the US is much more thorough than elsewhere (although more formulaic and tick box), but analysis shows that fire is not a significant factor in founderings at sea compared with the other 3 main causes.

A very long time ago the mobo used as a start line boat in a club (LSC) race caught fire and they took to their liferaft temporarily . Years later too whilst on passage to S Brittany and in the shipping lanes off Ushant,we were close to (and altered course towards) and monitored on VHF an incident, initially a pan pan asking for assistance from any ships with a fire pump, when a British mobo, I think a wooden one called IIRC Welsh Princess caught fire, the crew took to the life raft when the situation deteriorated and were eventually rescued by a passing German freighter, it was the reason we purchased our first H/H VHF, to take in a grab bag in extremis as all comms with the crew in that incident had ceased once they abandoned the big boat.

 

[Sailfree]

Why not cast a tapered socket in the hull & plug the keel into that & then bolt up tight

In a roundabout way they have - they are called centre boards/ swing keels/dagger boards. There is a cost implication.

Got to add a point from another thread

Very sad though the loss of this keel and consequencies were I would remind everyone that 100's of people die from impacts between cars. Basically the strength of a car is not sufficient to protect the occupants and withstand the forces imposed on it yet we are not asking for cars to be built like tanks or limited to 10mph to prevent this unecessary loss of life. There seems to be a lack of commonality in the logic when discuissing bolt on keels to other aspects of our lives.

 

[CreakyDecks]

Is a life raft actually there for this situation, or is it there to enable escape under less serious conditions, like hitting an obstruction in good weather?
When you are on a plane they tell you to fasten your seat belt just before the plane lands. They don't do this just because landing is inherently more dangerous, they do it because when the plane has landed and got down to below say 70mph is the only time the seat belt has any chance of saving you. If the plane crashes while it's still doing 150mph you'll die anyway. Safety equipment can only do so much.
As people have pointed out, four people died in this tragedy. Statistics say that five people will die today in UK traffic accidents. Nobody except relatives and the emergency services will bat an eyelid.

 

[Jamesuk]

http://www.yachtingworld.com/archive/extra/400828/hooligan-maib-report

A friend was telling me about his experience of a similar scenario in coastal waters.

 

[HunterWanderer]

Very sad though the loss of this keel and consequencies were I would remind everyone that 100's of people die from impacts between cars. Basically the strength of a car is not sufficient to protect the occupants and withstand the forces imposed on it yet we are not asking for cars to be built like tanks or limited to 10mph to prevent this unecessary loss of life. There seems to be a lack of commonality in the logic when discuissing bolt on keels to other aspects of our lives.

But car strength and impact surviability is improving with time. Whereas keels becoming detached is relatively new occurrence and would seem that the builders are going in the wrong direction.

My 1984 boat has a bolted on keel but has a big flange at the top that fits into a recess in the hull. The bolts are 1 1/2 inch diameter. The bolt centres are spaced across the hull by about 12". The keel bolts go through the hull, the inner structural frame and then a big top plate of 1/2" thick stainless.

Its not difficult to engineer much stronger keel attachments than those being employed on these newer boats so that structural damage does not occur in the event of a heavy grounding. Bumping aground is a relatively frequent occurrence and there's almost no way of telling if serious damage has happened.

 

[lpdsn]

One of the reasons I choose Arcona is that the keel is not bolted to the hull, but to a substantial galvanised frame within the vessel. The same frame (a crucifix) also takes the rig loads, so the hull is - essentially - much less of load bearing structural element than in most boats. No reason that other builders should not use similar solutions (I believe X-Yachts do much the same) although there is a cost implication.

http://www.arconayachts.com/index.asp?p=About

That's because Swedes hit rocks on a much more frequent basis. Partly because a large proportion are uncharted. Sailing inshore around the Skargards only the safe routes are charted, so if you go off piste, intentional or otherwise, a loud clunk from the keel is quite a likely outcome

 

[maby]

Is a life raft actually there for this situation, or is it there to enable escape under less serious conditions, like hitting an obstruction in good weather?
....

Well, the events in question represent the most extreme demands placed on a liferaft - simply because they represent the most extreme events that can occur to a boat. There's no guarantee that a liferaft would have saved their lives, but it is pretty much the only option that could have been open to them, so we should be looking for changes to processes and procedures that improve the chances of survival in these circumstances.