Jeanneau 45.2 vs. Beneteau 473 for retired couple in Med

[rjmcl]

Hi, first post after years of lurking. Be gentle.
We have just retired ( 62 & 58) and are looking for our first yacht in the Med. We have 15 years history of chartering every summer. Now looking to spend 6 months or more each year in Greece / Turkey for the next few years, while we are both fit. Maybe an Atlantic circuit sometime, if the blood is up (probably not!).
Have been looking online, and viewed a dozen different yachts last year. I like yachts with twin wheels for easy cockpit living, and I am 1.90m tall - smaller yachts lacked headroom.
Our current shortlist is down to 2 candidates, Jeanneau 45.2 or Beneteau 473 of 1998 - 2002 vintage. My belief is that these are well constructed AWB's, offer good accommodation and sailing performance for our budget (less than £100k). Unfortunately, have not yet sailed either of these models
We know that we will spend significant amounts of time in harbour / at anchor, and intend to have our friends and family out as much as possible. But we will normally sail as a couple.
Interested in views of wiser readers with actual experience of these yachts, and/or handling largish yachts shorthanded in the med.
Regards, Richard

 

[Tranona]

Handling that size with 2 fit people is not a problem once you get the hang of it. Bow thruster is a bonus but not as essential if you keep out of marinas. Good idea to have a couple of days with an experienced skipper to show you how to do it.

As you have probably found out while chartering, the proportion of time you spend seriously sailing is very small, so mostly light airs or motoring.

You will never get near the potential of either of those boats so don't worry about their sailing ability. The key thing is to make sure you can handle the big sail areas easily. For some this means definitely in mast reefing and even electric windlasses. While there is some loss in ultimate performance it is not significant at the sort of half throttle speeds you will sail at. The great thing is that it is easy to do fine adjustments to the sail area to keep the boat moving comfortably.

So it comes down to livability for you. Layout, equipment, storage, comfort etc - just the things the builders emphasise in their advertising. Plus of course condition with older boats. Some live pampered lives others get well used and maybe not so well maintained. Don't be afraid of ex charter boats, some can be very good value. Don't forget to look at Bavarias as well. Lots of choice and they stand up well to conditions out there.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Hi Richard

Echo Tranona's points about the sailing ability of these boats. I'm 61, we've just bought a 42' Bavaria (a Vision 42) and plan to sail mostly as a couple albeit sometimes with equally ancient friends on board. We went for convenience and living space / features, over absolute sailing ability. The boat we picked has two large sleeping cabins, two heads, elec flush WCs, a large sociable cockpit with twin wheels and lots of lounging space, a bowthruster, all electric winches, electric anchor windlass with remote and chain counter, in-mast furling. Also went for the uprated engine on the grounds you can never have too much power.

I'm hoping that the modest effort involved in operating this boat means I'll get 10-15 years at least.

 

[Norman_E]

I have a 45.2 based in Marmaris. It would make a very good liveaboard boat, and sails well. If you get the 4 cabin charter version the partition between the forward cabins is removeable tio make a huge cabin, en-suite with the forward heads. There is plenty of storage and the big lazerette ahead of the forward cabin is particularly useful. My boat has one electric winch, which is useful but not essential. It has a full battened mainsail, despite which I sail it with my wife and single handed, and I am 70 and not very big, so its definitely manageable by a reasonably fit couple. The original genoa is quite large, and I replaced mine with one about 18 inches shorter in the foot, but tri radial cut. Its just as good if not better upwind but the smaller sail area loses a little downwind in light winds.

 

[bobthecook]

I had a 45.2 and went to look at the Beneteau473 I did not buy the Ben as I did not think it was as good a boat as the Jen imo

 

[ashtead]

If looking you might also consider a Moody . personally prefer to avoid inmost furling as a conventional sail can be dropped much more quickly if required and less to go wrong. A real plus are electric winches on a German mainsheet system and you might wish to consider a self tacking headsail which if you haven't tried is a real revelation. I think in making a choice between models mentioned I would be influenced more by age of sails and extras on board e.g. Genset or water maker if you like to shower regularly plus tank size . You can spend a lot of time in med under motor so how do fuel capacities and engine sizes compare between models named ? How does storage compared in lockers for larger items such as bikes and dinghies ? Di any available have Davits . Maybe draw up a list of items and rate each model against this checklist .
. Ultimately though what x values will have no appeal to y and of course any selection is dependent on timescales to search etc

 

[Tranona]

If looking you might also consider a Moody .

Assume you mean the new Hanse Moodys rather than the old style as with the latter you have to forgo many of the features of the more modern boats which the OP has on his list. However the newer ones are way out of budget.

It is a myth that a fully battened sail is easier to drop, particularly on the size boat we are talking about here - and anyway when did you last have to drop a sail in a hurry when pottering around the Med? In mast is popular because it is easy to stow and adjust and no need to go on deck either to set or put away at the end of the day.

 

[alant]

Hi, first post after years of lurking. Be gentle.
We have just retired ( 62 & 58) and are looking for our first yacht in the Med. We have 15 years history of chartering every summer. Now looking to spend 6 months or more each year in Greece / Turkey for the next few years, while we are both fit. Maybe an Atlantic circuit sometime, if the blood is up (probably not!).
Have been looking online, and viewed a dozen different yachts last year. I like yachts with twin wheels for easy cockpit living, and I am 1.90m tall - smaller yachts lacked headroom.
Our current shortlist is down to 2 candidates, Jeanneau 45.2 or Beneteau 473 of 1998 - 2002 vintage. My belief is that these are well constructed AWB's, offer good accommodation and sailing performance for our budget (less than £100k). Unfortunately, have not yet sailed either of these models
We know that we will spend significant amounts of time in harbour / at anchor, and intend to have our friends and family out as much as possible. But we will normally sail as a couple.
Interested in views of wiser readers with actual experience of these yachts, and/or handling largish yachts shorthanded in the med.
Regards, Richard

Helped a mate check out a Dufour 48.5 ex charter some years ago, which he sails single handed.
Does have in mast reefing, noo bow thruster, he has no problem parking it.

 

[Norman_E]

Whilst I am naturally biased in favour of the Jeanneau the important issue when buying a boat that is now about 15 to 20 years old is condition. In particular has the boat been properly looked after, and sensibly updated. If the boat is ex charter it will have high engine hours. Not a problem in itself if maintenance has been regular, and the Yanmar engines fitted to the Jeanneau are reliable units, but I am less sure about Volvo engines. (Puts on tin hat and awaits flak from Volvo owners!).

 

[Tranona]

Whilst I am naturally biased in favour of the Jeanneau the important issue when buying a boat that is now about 15 to 20 years old is condition. In particular has the boat been properly looked after, and sensibly updated. If the boat is ex charter it will have high engine hours. Not a problem in itself if maintenance has been regular, and the Yanmar engines fitted to the Jeanneau are reliable units, but I am less sure about Volvo engines. (Puts on tin hat and awaits flak from Volvo owners!).

Flack coming your way! my Volvo 2030 ran 7 years on charter clocking 3500 completely trouble free hours except for a head gasket replacement in first year under warranty. Ran as well at the end as at the beginning. Proper regime of oil and filter changes every 200 hours and run at 2400 cruising. Excellent engine.

However the bigger engines in the boats under consideration are different animals, but still think they are comparable. after all the builders seem to be equally split and some even use engines from both in different model boats.

 

[Norman_E]

My Yanmar trumps yours by about 2000 hours and has never had a problem except for a corroded exhaust elbow, now replaced with stainless.

For the OP. When checking a 45.2 have a look at the frame supporting the upper rudder bearing. You can see it by taking out the plug where the emergency tiller fits. The frame is galvanised steel, and can get badly corroded. The cure is quite simple in that it can be replaced with a custom made stainless part, utilising the plastic bearing and rubber bush from the original. If it is corroded use it to bargain a bit off the price. I wrote an article in PBO about a year ago describing the job.

 

[Tranona]

My Yanmar trumps yours by about 2000 hours and has never had a problem except for a corroded exhaust elbow, now replaced with stainless.

.

Both of us are real beginners. You will find many examples of both makes (and others) that way exceed those hours trouble free. It is not the brand of the engine - they are all very similar in both design and quality of construction, but the way they are used and maintained.

Your (and my) type of use are easy for an engine. Lots of hours, run for long periods of time and an easy environment. Rather different from the typical UK yottie whose enginee lies dormant most of the time and then run for short periods in a challenging environment.

Of course you think your engine is brilliant - so do I. I also think the Yanmar 1GM I ran for 20 years was brilliant, as was its replacement Nanni. Enough said about its predecessor Stuart Turner though. Just like all the folks on here who think the boat they own is brilliant. Of course it is, otherwise why would they own it? There are even people who think Perkins 4/107s are brilliant!

 

[[3889]]

It is a myth that a fully battened sail is easier to drop,

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO2CRMDd-9LLlrZd2SSm9C1yAWYnp7w3oBzk0IV

Smaller boat (36'), but not a myth. I've sailed several 45-55' yachts with in mast furling and wouldn't consider it for my next boat...and that's before sailing performance is taken into account.

For the OP, I set out out to buy a 2007 Benny, having owned one before, but was swayed by Jeanneau' s superior (IMO) finish. A friend has a 2002 Benny 411, however, which is well built. I would go for what's the best available rather than tying yourself to a particular brand.

 

[Tranona]

Your link does not work.

However, not my experience having owned two in mast boats. Also when you get to 50' stowing a big main which you can barely reach is a pain.

No surprise that over 90% of HRs over 40' have in mast.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I went for in-mast after chartering a Jeanneau 41 last year that had slab reefing. It was a big sail ; a 45-47' would be even bigger. Hoisting it every day (sweating up assisted for last few feet by manual winch) was doable but hard work and needed two people.

Dropping the main and flaking into the sailbag (even with lazyjacks) was a complete PITA, you had to climb a couple of steps up the mast to reach the top of the dropped sail, and with two of us (ages 60 and 57) it never felt like a safe activity. Zipping the bag up over teh flaked sail was very difficult (por maybe that was a reflection on the quality of our sail flake).

Either way, in mast looks a winner to me but totally accept that it's not for everyone.

 

[[3889]]

Your link does not work.

However, not my experience having owned two in mast boats. Also when you get to 50' stowing a big main which you can barely reach is a pain.

No surprise that over 90% of HRs over 40' have in mast.

Works for me on Android and Windows. Alternative is https://goo.gl/photos/n8qaVnhaRdSzw2vaA

Watch the vid and you'll see there's no need to reach the main.

I don't dispute the popularity of in-mast reefing but it doesn't score well on the part of the "marina basking - pleasurable sailing" continuum that appeals to me. And in-mast reefing is not without it's drawbacks - when it fails it does so in a panic inducing, catastrophic way, IME, especially when closing a lee shore.
Each to their own.

 

[RupertW]

My Yanmar trumps yours by about 2000 hours and has never had a problem except for a corroded exhaust elbow, now replaced with stainless.

For the OP. When checking a 45.2 have a look at the frame supporting the upper rudder bearing. You can see it by taking out the plug where the emergency tiller fits. The frame is galvanised steel, and can get badly corroded. The cure is quite simple in that it can be replaced with a custom made stainless part, utilising the plastic bearing and rubber bush from the original. If it is corroded use it to bargain a bit off the price. I wrote an article in PBO about a year ago describing the job.

I would second that as ours failed half way through an overnight crossing - steering limited in angle very stiff and amazing it worked at all. When I climbed in the next morning after mooring up the beam bits broke like a digestive biscuit.

 

[Tranona]

Works for me on Android and Windows. Alternative is https://goo.gl/photos/n8qaVnhaRdSzw2vaA

Watch the vid and you'll see there's no need to reach the main.

I don't dispute the popularity of in-mast reefing but it doesn't score well on the part of the "marina basking - pleasurable sailing" continuum that appeals to me. And in-mast reefing is not without it's drawbacks - when it fails it does so in a panic inducing, catastrophic way, IME, especially when closing a lee shore.
Each to their own.

But you are on deck rather than in the cockpit. Read post#15 above which explains my point better than I can.

I am intrigued why speed of drop seems to have a high level of importance anyway. How often is it really important?

There is no reason why a well maintained in mast properly used should fail and the sail can be quickly rolled away from the security of the cockpit.

While it is right to choose what suits you, that is not necessarily helpful in answering the question posed in the thread where in mast is a better match to the OPs requirements. He may well of course choose differently or it may be a compromise because he is buying used so limited to what is available when he wants to buy.

 

[capnsensible]

Wah wah and wah wah. Try getting the youngest boat around the length you like at the price you like!

The rest is,in my opinion, window dressing.

:encouragement:

 

[Norman_E]

Wah wah and wah wah. Try getting the youngest boat around the length you like at the price you like!

The rest is,in my opinion, window dressing.

:encouragement:

Its not the age of the boat that matters. In any case the OP is considering a 4 year age range. Its the condition of the boat, and the extent to which it has been refitted and upgraded that matter. A recent re-rig can save the buyer thousands compared to an original rig in need of replacement. Good recent sails versus baggy originals, ditto. Similarly new instruments versus originals with failing LCD screens. A well maintained engine is the biggest expense saver. My 18 year old high hours engine is probably in better condition that quite a lot of 10 year old engines that have been poorly maintained and used in short bursts. There are younger boats than mine that I would not touch, for example there was a short period after Beneteau bought Jeanneau where the bean counters took charge and some Jeanneau boats were fitted with internal panelling where the "wood grain" was actually a sort of paper veneer, easily damaged and impossible to repair satisfactorily. The 45.2 was built in the era of decent quality woodwork and mine has very nice matched veneers.