Jeanneau 45.2 vs. Beneteau 473 for retired couple in Med

[Pasarell]

We are similar age to you and have similar plans although maybe rather more than 6 months aboard each year. Looked at various boats to begin with and rapidly increased size from 38-40' to 40'+. We really didn't like the latest interior styles from Bav/Ben/Jen so looked at boats a little older, initially 2005 ish. Previous boat was centre cockpit and we liked that. Eventually settled for a Moody 44 from 2007 that is in very good condition.
The 2 biggest points for us were living space and being able to handle the boat easily. We have a large aft cabin (accepting the fact we will be sleeping at the end of the boat close to quays), centre line bed and good ensuite and storage areas. 2 guest cabins and 2nd heads are at the other end of the boat. In mast furling, upgraded manual winches, big bowthruster. Walk onto aft deck on either side and then into cockpit from side decks. The boat was already in Greece and we took possession in November so little actual use of it yet other than in a marina. Handling is very easy from limited experience so far. Thruster and windlass controls are in the cockpit and we also have wireless remotes including for the autopilot. High helm position in the centre cockpit gives good visibility all round.
The real test will be in a few months time but so far I'm really pleased with our choice and feel it will work for us.
Good luck with your purchase!

 

[Norman_E]

I went for in-mast after chartering a Jeanneau 41 last year that had slab reefing. It was a big sail ; a 45-47' would be even bigger. Hoisting it every day (sweating up assisted for last few feet by manual winch) was doable but hard work and needed two people.

Dropping the main and flaking into the sailbag (even with lazyjacks) was a complete PITA, you had to climb a couple of steps up the mast to reach the top of the dropped sail, and with two of us (ages 60 and 57) it never felt like a safe activity. Zipping the bag up over teh flaked sail was very difficult (por maybe that was a reflection on the quality of our sail flake).

Either way, in mast looks a winner to me but totally accept that it's not for everyone.

Well that is not my experience, but of course on a charter boat you cannot change how things are set up. On my 45.2 I have a full batten main. Originally it was harder to drop because it had plastic sliders in the mast groove and rather ineffective rollers on the batten cars. The best setup, though expensive is an external track with all roller cars and sliders, but I opted to change all the sliders and batten cars to Rutgerson cars which have wheels that roll down the back face of the mast. Provided I get head to wind this setup drops the sail properly and all I usually have to do is pull the last couple of feet down, and tidy it away into the sailbag. I can just reach high enough to do up the sailbag zip right to the mast. As for getting the sail up thats where a power winch can help, though I never use it to pull the sail all the way. Firstly I just pull the halyard by hand, which gets the sail past the second spreader, then I use the electric winch until the mark on the halyard reaches the clutch. At that point the halyard is not fully tensioned and I adjust it with the handle as needed. If I did not have the power winch it would still be easy enough. Its a question of making sure that all the blocks in the system are free running and that the halyard is not twisted round anything else inside the mast. When I bought the boat the topping lift had been swapped from starboard to port and was wound round the halyard making it very hard to pull up the sail. A fiddle with a wire hook though the mast slots to pull out the offending rope and put it back without the twist made a huge difference.

 

[rjmcl]

Thanks to all for opinions and advice. Reassured that many think similar to me, and some new views to consider. Currently not considering slab reefing, experienced this on many charter yachts and have occasionally had to go to mast to pull main down - just when I really did not want to leave the cockpit. Probably a mix of poorly maintained / designed sliders and my bad seamanship. Also, my wife simply cannot reach the sail bag on boom of larger yachts. So mast furling main is a given.
Considered centre cockpit, but I believe that Mediterranean reverse parking large yachts while short handed is much easier with aft wheel and engine controls. Parking in crowded harbours has given us grief in the past, so bow thruster and remote operated anchor winch is on the list.
We like the interiors of Jeanneaus of a certain age. Teak (I think!) wood finish, well constructed. Not so keen on dark wood (Early Bavs, Bene 473) or the modern 'square cut' look. Probably an age (my age) thing. I also believe that there is a sort of 'sweet spot' of yacht design, construction quality, and age related deterioration / depreciation that means for my budget, yachts round about 2000 are best compromise. At this age the maintenance history is key to value and reliability, and realise our ongoing costs may be significant. The complexity of electric winches and other comforts of old age sailing means maintenance expense. However, I like pottering and tinkering! What else am I going to do with my retirement in the Med?

So, still minded for Jeanneau 45.2, lots about but when I eliminate 4 cabin versions, slab reefing, and teak decks (work of the devil!) there are remarkably few left. Looked at one with twin forward cabin converted to huge double, but the heads / shower is smaller than 3 cabin version. Almost ashamed that accommodation is more important than sailing, but I believe that is realistic. We are looking for a floating holiday home for us, our friends and family. Good sailing performance is a bonus.
On this topic, is shoal draft worth seeking out? Are mooring benefits in crowded Greek harbours outweighed by poorer performance to windward? Not that I plan doing much of that ungentlemanly windward stuff, but sometimes the need arises. Shoal draft yacht across the Atlantic?
Thanks for listening, Richard

 

[tcm]

Tranona and others give good advice.

Mine isn;t to do with the boat - it’s to do with buying the boat. If you buy a bit in the med or anywhere distant ... then unless you a very self-reliant ... a very good idea is to buy a boat which is for sale and is based in the very SAME marina as where you plan to keep it, it possible. The dealer or seller are there, as are the people who worked on the boat in the past - you inherit that knowledge of what’s been done and not done - free, via those people. And you win an obvious (albeit informal) duty of care from the dealer/vendor - quick explanations of where the ruddy fuse box is an on and on...

hope this helps

 

[Norman_E]

I don't think that its worth seeking out a shoal draft boat. Certainly in Turkey I have not found a 2 metre draft any problem. On my 45.2 the veneer is teak, and has faded in colour a bit so that is now a nice rich mid brown, It was evidently quite a bit darker when new, as can be seen when removing the clock to change batteries!

I am surprised you seem to rule out the four cabin version, as removing the partition gives you a huge forward cabin, with a much bigger bed than you get in a three cabin "owners version". I made two simple fittings to store the partition parts against the "walls" inside each aft cabin door. They are not in the way and available for reinstallation if needed.

If you sail the Turkish coast you will find that the winds tend to parallel the coast, so get used to a bit of sailing to windward, for which you will find the Jeanneau better than the Beneteau, though the latter may score points downwind.

 

[RupertW]

Would agree with others that shoal draft isn't a great advantage. We do like to anchor where it is turquoise so a bit shallow but with no tides and calm weather you can tuck in quite a way even with 2m.

Love the idea of a remote anchor windlass but it would be pointless in my 42.2 (and may be equally so for the 45.2) if the chain locker is built in the same hopeless way. If you have a sloping shelf just 30cm below the windlass then dipping right down the the bottom then chain will fill the shelf and jam, so you have to be on the foredeck tending the chain throughout, poking a broomhandle at the pile-ups every few meters.

Highly irritating and if the cost of the experiment wasn't so expensive I would be very tempted to swap for stainless steel chain and see whether that will be a problem too

 

[rjmcl]

TCM, good observation that I had not considered. Sort of planned to start off with season in Ionian to get used to our big new toy in lighter winds. So, depending where we buy, first weeks might involve voyaging there ( with added crew). Spending first couple of months or a season in 'home port' certainly worth more careful thought.
Thanks

 

[rjmcl]

I don't think that its worth seeking out a shoal draft boat.
I am surprised you seem to rule out the four cabin version, as removing the partition gives you a huge forward cabin, with a much bigger bed than you get in a three cabin "owners version". .

Norman, I have not yet had opportunity to view a 3 cabin version. Wife is quite taken with the possibility of a dressing table to port of the forward cabin, I am quite taken with possibility of not skinning my bald head in the shower. Headroom was marginal on converted one we viewed. Have to wait till I see one in the flesh.

As a 45.2 owner, how have you found anchor chain stowage? RupertW makes a good point that a remote windlass is U/S if chain jams. However in my experience this problem is more likely when raising - unless locker design is dreadful this is usually towards the end of the process as the chain mountain builds. Most of my parking excitement has been when lowering anchor while reversing between other yachts in windy conditions. Stern anchor and bow first perhaps a better option.

 

[NormanB]

Its not a massive job to re engineer the anchor locker - IIRC Barrie Nielsen ( he of 'Sailing Holidays') has written this up in YM (or similar) - SH did a load of their fleet this winter.

Found it - link

 

[Norman_E]

Chain locker is not ideal, but probably bigger and therefore better than on the 42.2. My boat has a Lofrans Tigress windlass which should discharge the chain at the rear into the deepest part of the locker. however this results in just less than a 90 degree wrap round the gypsy, which is not ideal. On my boat the stripper arm had been removed from the windlass and the chain run forward over a roller to drop into the locker further forward where it is shallower, resulting in frequent need to knock down the chain pile. I think this was done because the boat actually had the incorrect chain for the gypsy and it was jumping due to that and the limited wrap. I suggest that on sea trial of any boat you have the chain run out and recovered to see how well it goes, but I would not really expect you to be able to bring in 60 plus metres of 10mm chain without having to knock the pile down at least once, but you might be lucky.
I have improved matters on my boat by storing the last 20 metres of my 70 metre chain right forward behind a wooden "dam" constructed at the front of the locker. The most used 50 metres then stores in the deepest part below the windlass. I also replaced the roller that had been fitted ahead of the windlass with a stainless steel chute that guides the chain downwards at about 45 degrees from the gypsy and drops it in closer than it did via the old roller because the winlass has been re-mounted on a thick plastic plate, and moved further back. The thickness of the plastic stopped the chain locker lid closing fully, so I sawed off the offending cleat that I never would use anyway . Its still a bit of a pain as my ill fitting chain (which is actually American 3/8 inch chain) is very rough and rusty, so forms piles that don't collapse under their own weight, and the biggest improvement will come this year when I replace it with new DIN chain.
This photo shows the windlass as modified, and the dam.

 

[Tranona]

I ordered my old Bavaria 37 for charter use in the Ionian with shoal draft for 2 reasons. First and most important was a plan to bring it back eventually to the UK through the Canal du Midi. Second, and as a bonus, some of the smaller harbours have lots of rock ballast at the quay edge and rudder damage is common when mooring stern to. Had no rudder damage in the 7 years of chartering. There is a noticeable drop in windward performance but never had a complaint from charterers. Shoal draft would not put me off if everything about the rest of the boat was right. As you have discovered choice can be very limited in the secondhand market and you can only buy what is for sale at any given time. So it is the overall boat that is important and the compromises you are prepared to make.

With regard to wireless remote. This to my mind is essential. The normal controls, either handheld on a curly wire or foot switches are not good enough. The former are very vulnerable (guess how I know) and the latter have a poor reliability record plus you can only operate from one position. On my latest boat I have a Sidepower wireless remote that does both the bow thruster and windlass. The most important use for the windlass and thruster is for tight berthing, so being able to operate both from anywhere on the boat is very useful.

 

[jordanbasset]

With stern to mooring having a remote is very useful, it means if there are two of you both can be at the stern to assist with ropes etc. As to the problem some boats have when taking in the chain it is less of an issue when leaving as one can go forward and check the chain is not bunching up, as the stern ropes will be on slips and easy to release.

 

[Steve Clayton]

45.2
The anchor chain piling is a real PITA but solvable.
With in mast furling all lines lead to the cockpit - a good safety point.
Check carefully the top keel area where the strumbox fits. Internal and external delamination was an issue on a lot of 45.2's.
Check the boom to mast fitting pin and the lower plastic spacer washer. If black marks and worn washer the vangwill need replacing or new dampers.
There is/was a 45.2 in Chi marina with Blackrock. Worth a look to see a standard build of 2003 era. Been for sale for maybe 3/4 years - owner apparently won't move on price.

 

[RupertW]

I'd love to know how the chain piling is solvable remotely. Our Tigres winch deposits chain into rear of locker which is shallowest.

Absolutely right that the problem is when raising the anchor only but It occurs when the chain locker is almost empty once about 5-10 meters are raised then every 3 or 4 meters for the next 50. So it's not hard to deal with continuously without stopping the windlass but you have to be there.

 

[KellysEye]

I don't know if it is the same now (do check) but we chartered many Beneteaus and Jeanneaus ranging from 32 feet to 50 feet and every single Jeanneau went better upwind becase they had a deeper keel.

 

[RupertW]

I'd love to know how the chain piling is solvable remotely. Our Tigres winch deposits chain into rear of locker which is shallowest.

Absolutely right that the problem is when raising the anchor only but It occurs when the chain locker is almost empty once about 5-10 meters are raised then every 3 or 4 meters for the next 50. So it's not hard to deal with continuously without stopping the windlass but you have to be there.

Just thought I'd add another disadvantage to using a remote (at least for me) when dropping the anchor going back to a wall or long line to shore. That is that I tend to just let off the clutch rather than use the windlass as that allow the chain out far faster so the boat can be reversed as fast as the helmsperson needs which can be very helpful in a crosswind. I always find that there is enough time to walk back to the stern in the last few feet once the stern is safely between adjacent boats. But I am intrigued by the fans of remote windlass control so will investigate more.

Changing the anchor locker to a decent design would cut into the length of our double berth forward, I think but will have a look because a few grand for that would change anchoring completely.

 

[[3889]]

But you are on deck rather than in the cockpit. Read post#15 above which explains my point better than I can.

I am intrigued why speed of drop seems to have a high level of importance anyway. How often is it really important?

There is no reason why a well maintained in mast properly used should fail and the sail can be quickly rolled away from the security of the cockpit.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...for-retired-couple-in-Med#w4SSUs4K4xu4Xfk8.99

Shum mistake shurley? Maybe the camera angle, but I am in the cockpit. It's not speed of drop that's relevant, though that does contradict your assertion that FB mains are no easier to drop than flappy sails. What is germane is that a properly set-up, fully battened sail can be dropped more easily than its in-mast equivalent can be furled. Zipping the bag is a distraction - that can be done whenever - again assuming the system is set up correctly.

 

[Norman_E]

One other point about the two boats, both are over 14 metres LOA which means that in a lot of Marinas they are charged as 15 metre boats. The Beneteau has a 14.16 metre hull length, but the hull of the Jeanneau is shorter at 13.72 metres, which means that a fairly simple modification to the pulpit will bring LOA below 14 metres with in my case a decent saving on marina bills as well as allowing the cruising chute tack line to be outside the pulpit, and not pull against it.

 

[Tranona]

Shum mistake shurley? Maybe the camera angle, but I am in the cockpit. It's not speed of drop that's relevant, though that does contradict your assertion that FB mains are no easier to drop than flappy sails. What is germane is that a properly set-up, fully battened sail can be dropped more easily than its in-mast equivalent can be furled. Zipping the bag is a distraction - that can be done whenever - again assuming the system is set up correctly.

Read the posts earlier by others (who are buying this size of boat) and have experience of the difficulties of handling the mainsail - and both have chosen in mast. There is a huge difference between your 36' and boat 10' or more longer. Remember we (me and the buyers) are either already OAPs or buying boats for that stage in life and will sail either single handed or as a couple.

For people such as us a fully battened rig is inappropriate. Not only the setting and stowing aspect, but who wants to deal with miles of string when reefing and still be confined to only 3 predetermined sizes of main. Many newer boats have rigs with small headsails and big mains and the only sensible rig (for shorthanded sailing) is in mast that not only gives you easy handling, but you can infinitely vary sail area. If the small loss of sailing ability bothers you there are plenty of performance orientated furling mainsails on the market.


It is features such as we are discussing here, including bow thrusters, electric winches, big engines, plus the sail handling that make boats in the 45-50' range viable for older couples.

 

[Norman_E]

I find that the full battened mainsail on my boat is easier to handle that it is to furl the genoa on some occasions. If I had a choice of swapping my full batten main for inmast, or fitting an electric furler, I would choose the latter.