Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[sailaboutvic]

We spent 5 months cruising in Greece last sumer spending something the region of £15000 ( including family visits). Our overwintering costs plus some maintenance/ refit will take that to £25000. The VAT tax take on that was 24%, roughly £4800 as well as the obvious commercial benefits to the area.

As a result of the introduction of this new tax, we shall cruise one more season in Greece and then leave, much sooner than planned. The Greek authorities tax take from us will be much lower because of this tax. Whilst I don't think for a moment the tax will affect the charter business, I suspect other cruising yachtsman will also vote with their feet but whether in sufficient numbers to cause a rethink( like in Sardinia) remains to be seen.

I respect the right of the Greek government to introduce any tax it chooses. In this case it doesn't seem to be a wise or productive one.....but what do I Know?

Although you or me leaving, some will say it isn't going to much different in the great scheme of things,
I think the local economy will suffer in time , maybe not so much this year more next as the cost of yacht over 12 mts hit home,
We in two minds if to return to Greece or head Back to North to Sardinia and the South France or even west out of the Med and back to Portugal, where not only there no taxes for cruising but better winds for sailing. It's really a shame as we loved sailing from one country to the next in the same seasons, but with Croatia new increases and the tax in Greece it's making more sense to sails in country where we not going to pay a large part of our Budget in taxes .
Some will say , Greece still have lot of free anchorages, and so they do but so do other country's, the sad thing about all this is soon or later as people move around other country will come up with some kind of way to keep charging us , this will never end unless there a mass exit from these country , where they will think again,
I for one can't see happening any time soon.
Of cause for some like Jordanbasset , I have to say one of the nicest guys you could meet , with boat 10 mts and less the cost for now isn't going to break the bank, I say for now, as I willing to take bet if things stay as they are that cost too will go up in a few years time .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I have to agree with the above being close to 14 metres I cannot justify the unnecessary cost of staying in Greece, this, is maybe the kick up the bum I needed to move on, however, Where is the best place? I did start another thread on Sailing areas but it was not supported very well.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Any idea how much money they are talking here?

Length Meters	Monthly Charge €	6 months	12 months	less discount *	discount	Annual charge
7 to 8 meters	16	96	192	10%	19	173
8 to 10	25	150	300	10%	30	270
10 to 12	33	198	396	10%	40	356
Over 12 Meters the flat rate of €8 per meter per month applies on the whole length as stated in your ships papers.
12.01 meters	96	576	1153	10%	115	1038
13 meters	104	624	1248	10%	125	1123
14 meters	112	672	1344	10%	134	1210
15 meters	120	720	1440	10%	144	1296
* Discount only available if taken out in Jan 1 for the year.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have to agree with the above being close to 14 metres I cannot justify the unnecessary cost of staying in Greece, this, is maybe the kick up the bum I needed to move on, however, Where is the best place? I did start another thread on Sailing areas but it was not supported very well.

Bob - you may have to go east to Malaysia to get your cheap sailing. Hell of a distance

I still think that Greece - especially the Aegean side where you scarcely ever get charged for berthing is still cheaper than any of the conventional areas, - but what about Galacia as a 1 year sail....

Lucky I am 11.95 metres

 

[Tradewinds]

Hi Chris,

Just to clarify

The charge is based on the length stated on your ship's papers - is that correct? ie not the actual true life overall length.

Bob - you may have to go east to Malaysia to get your cheap sailing. Hell of a distance

I still think that Greece - especially the Aegean side where you scarcely ever get charged for berthing is still cheaper than any of the conventional areas, - but what about Galacia as a 1 year sail....

Lucky I am 11.95 metres

 

[Carmel2]

Yay 11.40

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi Chris,

Just to clarify

The charge is based on the length stated on your ship's papers - is that correct? ie not the actual true life overall length.

Length on the SSR. dont ask.....

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Bob - you may have to go east to Malaysia to get your cheap sailing. Hell of a distance

I still think that Greece - especially the Aegean side where you scarcely ever get charged for berthing is still cheaper than any of the conventional areas, - but what about Galacia as a 1 year sail....

Lucky I am 11.95 metres

Yes Chris you are correct, in, I dont pay a lot of berthing fees, probably less than most. I think the only place I paidlast year was is Ermioni and Porta Heli and I have now found out a way of not having to pay there too.( Legally)
I may be having a lot of work carried out on my boat so it might finish smaller than the original size.

 

[silver-fox]

We thoroughly enjoyed exploring the Ionian and found it delightful - once we got over the shock of how crowded it was! Next year it will be the Aegean and then who knows? We will probably head back west again or maybe Turkey.

On the subject of cost savings, I was surprised at how many people just consider using 4 or 5 marinas in the Ionian as a base and complain about the high costs. We had a good look around (thanks for the tips RTBoss1) and found that there were some very good local suppliers charging much less.

 

[Nanjo]

I'm guessing it's too early for a correct answer. But, I live onboard all year. From November to April I'm on a jetty, and do not move. Will this count as 'Out of use' so I don't pay the tax?

 

[Chris_Robb]

I'm guessing it's too early for a correct answer. But, I live onboard all year. From November to April I'm on a jetty, and do not move. Will this count as 'Out of use' so I don't pay the tax?

Yes, I expect it will. But you will need to hand in the papers to Port Police. If its customs (as for non EU flagged boats, then they will expect you not to use it at all as it will be in bond...... This would be against EU customs union rules for EU flagged boats.

I doubt whether we will get this level of clarity in the early stages.

 

[Nanjo]

Thanks for the quick reply Chris, and everything your doing for us in Greece.

 

[truscott]

I'm guessing it's too early for a correct answer. But, I live onboard all year. From November to April I'm on a jetty, and do not move. Will this count as 'Out of use' so I don't pay the tax?

We successfully argued this when checking out at Preveza at the end of April 2017. Our friends also were able to argue that their time spent in a Marina in Kos was 'out of use' but in all cases, we were left with the understanding that they were doing us a favor and that this was not strictly the way things were supposed to be done. Note that in our case we were arguing against the 6 months use in a 12 month period rule for a non EU vessel that may or may not be a legitimate rule!

It will be interesting to see whether this actually is the case or whether it remains a matter of chance as far as who you deal with and what their interpretation of the rules are. That's the beauty of Greece I guess.

PT

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm guessing it's too early for a correct answer. But, I live onboard all year. From November to April I'm on a jetty, and do not move. Will this count as 'Out of use' so I don't pay the tax?

As you say too early to say ,
my guess being on a jetty and I take it you mean by that a private jetty I some how don't think you get away with it,
plus if your living on board not sure that is class out of use.
Which bring us all to another problem for full time live aboard , even if your in the marina not sure if that's going to be class as out of use, while living on board , which could mean people who winter out in Greece will still have to pay tax while their living on board even if the boat don't leave the Marina for the winter six months.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Yes, I expect it will. But you will need to hand in the papers to Port Police. If its customs (as for non EU flagged boats, then they will expect you not to use it at all as it will be in bond...... This would be against EU customs union rules for EU flagged boats.

I doubt whether we will get this level of clarity in the early stages.

I would like to think your right Chris , but if your still living on board , how that class out of use.
Not making an agreement here , just saying.
The two don't go to gather , even so if a boat can be left on a jetty and class out of use, what stop people leaving them on anchor while being looked after by a local Guy.
I wouldn't be surprise the meaning of out of use is while they are in a marina or on land and while there no one on board .
Only time will tell .

 

[Chris_Robb]

I would like to think your right Chris , but if your still living on board , how that class out of use.
Not making an agreement here , just saying.
The two don't go to gather , even so if a boat can be left on a jetty and class out of use, what stop people leaving them on anchor while being looked after by a local Guy.
I wouldn't be surprise the meaning of out of use is while they are in a marina or on land and while there no one on board .
Only time will tell .

Out of use, is going to be defined by handing in your papers. The Greek Marina association was so concerned about a clear definition that they got a concession "out of use " is when you are not Cruising. I am hoping that we will have significant info in 2 weeks.

One thing that really pisses me off is the use of the calendar month - ie 1st to 30th. We will be pulling out on July 7th to go home till september. I will have to pay for a full month. At the start of the season I will be launching on the 21st May. SO I will have to pay 3 months. If I was over 12 meters I would be spitting blood.

I would hope that every one will have a row with the PP each time this happens - making their life extremely unpleasant - this may be the only way to change things

 

[De.windhoos]

Out of use, is going to be defined by handing in your papers. The Greek Marina association was so concerned about a clear definition that they got a concession "out of use " is when you are not Cruising. I am hoping that we will have significant info in 2 weeks.

One thing that really pisses me off is the use of the calendar month - ie 1st to 30th. We will be pulling out on July 7th to go home till september. I will have to pay for a full month. At the start of the season I will be launching on the 21st May. SO I will have to pay 3 months. If I was over 12 meters I would be spitting blood.

I would hope that every one will have a row with the PP each time this happens - making their life extremely unpleasant - this may be the only way to change things

unfortunately Southern Europe culture don't mind conflict, actually they kind of like conflicts. North-Western cultures tend to prefer consensus or fact-based discussions (with the exception of discussions on the web .)
Have a look at this

 

[Chris_Robb]

unfortunately Southern Europe culture don't mind conflict, actually they kind of like conflicts. North-Western cultures tend to prefer consensus or fact-based discussions (with the exception of discussions on the web .)
Have a look at this

Interesting! I think I must be a mismatch for the UK! And yes, the only successes I have had with Greek officialdom is when you shout at them..... Ask nicely and they ignore you!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Interesting! I think I must be a mismatch for the UK! And yes, the only successes I have had with Greek officialdom is when you shout at them..... Ask nicely and they ignore you!

Yes I also find once I start getting high rate they tend to back down,

 

[De.windhoos]

Interesting! I think I must be a mismatch for the UK! And yes, the only successes I have had with Greek officialdom is when you shout at them..... Ask nicely and they ignore you!

If you really want to annoy them,;
Ask closed questions and demand that they answer with yes/no
Ask the following closed questions “do you agree that these are the facts: (list)”
Use the following statement “I understand that this might feel that it is an emotional issue, however you just agreed to the following facts”

If you use Judo and pivot back to facts and indicate that if they cannot handle a factual discussion you are forced to go to a higher person, with whom, btw, you had dinner/drinks/lunch with not long ago, they will go either apeshit or give up