Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[sailaboutvic]

But Vic, that doesn't really make sense. What's the difference between a country charging a tax on the use of their marinas and charging a tax on the use of their waters? The only difference I can see is that you can choose to avoid the first but not the second...
.

It make sense to many Tony , one is a tax on tourist the other is a tax because we own a boat .
I wonder what the tourist would think if they singled out for walking on the pavement or EU cars where tax for driving through Greece roads , because that's basically what's happening to us sailing through Greece .

To top it up then there this enormous increase 12> add insult to injury.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I live in Sweden so I am super sensitive to Tax offices anywhere. I adopt the Swedish citizen approach and keep a low profile. Even to the point of ducking under the windows of the local tax office when passing.

I can well imagine that the Greek target yacht owners are equally sensitive and will move their yachts out of Greece to stay below the radar.

Imagine the following conversation from to Tax man to the Greek yacht owner who is careless enough to keep his non-Greek or Greek registered Yacht in Greece. "Now Doctor Sergio, How come you own such a large luxury yacht when your declared income on your tax return is only 29,000 euro a year?"

Once you get on the tax mans radar with an expensive asset it can generate a lot of embarrassing questions.

I believe that a Greek owner who registers his yacht in another country or under a straw dog may get away with it unless as I suspect the tax man will be tempted to look closer. Not a situation anyone wants.

I reckon the target yacht owners or their crews will be off like a rat in a drainpipe.

 

[crisjones]

It make sense to many Tony , one is a tax on tourist the other is a tax because we own a boat .
I wonder what the tourist would think if they singled out for walking on the pavement or EU cars where tax for driving through Greece roads , because that's basically what's happening to us sailing through Greece .

To top it up then there this enormous increase 12> add insult to injury.

I agree with Vic that this is a tax on boat owners and is not well thought out, especially the 12m price break.
There is mention of the Croatian Tax - again this is very unfair for a couple of liveaboards on their own boat, charter boats pay around €1.20 per person per night, they do not pay the lump sum soujourn tax that private boat owners pay. Last summer we paid over double what a charter boat with two people on board would have paid for the same time period. To make things worse in Croatia the Croatians themselves do not seem to pay the tax, a fact confirmed by two Harbourmasters we asked, even though EU law requires tourists and Nationals to be taxed the same.
The Greeks can choose to charge whatever tax they think they can get away with (probably encouraged by the EU) but that does not give us any obligation to sail their waters and pay it - we can go where we please while we have a boat. As Vic points out - charge a general Tourist Tax (like Croatia and many other countries) but do not single out boats just because their own citizens are so adept at dodging paying their dues.
Greece would be far better off concentrating on collecting the proper tax due from their own citizens and actually trying to change the long ingrained culture of tax evasion/avoidance that has contributed to their financial woes for many a long year.

 

[BurnitBlue]

As I mentioned earlier, there is a large jump at 12 m because that is the target size to catch Greek owners who evade the Greek tax by using a flag of convenience. I reckon they added the lower band of tax to charge ordinary non-rich cruising tourist boat owners less because they are welcome tourists who would hardly go to the trouble of re-flagging their (by comparison) less valuable boats.

Greece has been a democracy for more years than most and the voters long ago realised that they are the boss in a fair voting system. No prospective candidate or party would get elected if it was suspected that they would tax them. On the other hand it is OK to pass the burden on to tourists. The population of Greece is around 11 million which (I think) expends to over 22 million during the summer. Tourists of all colours are sitting ducks now and for the future.

 

[sailaboutvic]

On the other hand it is OK to pass the burden on to tourists. The population of Greece is around 11 million which (I think) expends to over 22 million during the summer. Tourists of all colours are sitting ducks now and for the future.

But there where the problem lies , there not passing on to all the tourist , only to the once who happen to have a boat .
Tourist are not charged to enter Greece , but we are at €15 each time we enter .

 

[BurnitBlue]

But there where the problem lies , there not passing on to all the tourist , only to the once who happen to have a boat .
Tourist are not charged to enter Greece , but we are at €15 each time we enter .

Their turn will come once the basic system has been set up. British registered boats in Greece are (or may be depending on deal or no deal) basically trapped in the EU so are fish in a barrel. Yes we have the option to move elsewhere as I will. But it can be a poor exchange and may cost more to move to an expensive country than it is to stay in Greece. I make my stand on the principle that I am absolutely, irrevocably, fed up to the teeth. cheesed off and very angry with paying added taxes. A bigger problem to me is that Greece to UK is a long trek by sea which would become difficult to get back inside a 90 day window. Also, if the boat were sold rather than take her home it would be liable to the buyer for VAT making it difficult to compete with Euro boats for sale. As I said, trapped in a barrel.

It is not all Gloom and Doom. This (for me) judging from my recent inertia, is the kick in the pants I somehow need to get back to somewhere else like Canaries, Caribbean, Bahamas. "Look on the bright side of life". Tra la di la. Sing to the tune of Waltzing Matilda, "Pack up your old kit bag and smile" sung to the tune of "let me count the ways to say goodbye" this is fun but my glass is nearly empty.

 

[Tony Cross]

I'm afraid that I disagree with the idea that this is a tax on boat owners, because it's clearly not. Greece is not taxing your ownership of the boat, they're taxing your use of their waters. If you put your boat out of use on the hard you still own the boat but you won't pay this tax because you're then not using their waters.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have wanted to pay this tax either, though I would have done and that's not why we sold the boat and moved ashore, but I don't see how you can claim it's unfair (as a concept - this implementation is unfair) or unreasonable for a country to tax the use of it's waters. They tax the use of the roads as well and there's not much difference really...

 

[grumpygit]

I'm afraid that I disagree with the idea that this is a tax on boat owners, because it's clearly not. Greece is not taxing your ownership of the boat, they're taxing your use of their waters. If you put your boat out of use on the hard you still own the boat but you won't pay this tax because you're then not using their waters.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have wanted to pay this tax either, though I would have done and that's not why we sold the boat and moved ashore, but I don't see how you can claim it's unfair (as a concept - this implementation is unfair) or unreasonable for a country to tax the use of it's waters. They tax the use of the roads as well and there's not much difference really...

Where as I agree mostly with what you have said I am not so sure you are correct in the assumption that there will be no charge on the hard unless you hand the boat papers in to whoever is going to be the administrator. Like a Greek car, unless you hand in the number plates to the Ministry the taxes are due every year and compound year on. This tax is not just for the tourist, it's as much to catch the tax evading Greeks flying ensigns etc.

 

[Tony Cross]

Where as I agree mostly with what you have said I am not so sure you are correct in the assumption that there will be no charge on the hard unless you hand the boat papers in to whoever is going to be the administrator. Like a Greek car, unless you hand in the number plates to the Ministry the taxes are due every year and compound year on. This tax is not just for the tourist, it's as much to catch the tax evading Greeks flying ensigns etc.

Indeed, but I did say If you put your boat out of use on the hard. The process of putting a boat out of use does involve handing papers in to the port police.

You're right about the Greeks too, in fact the tax is specifically designed to catch Greeks using foreign registration...

 

[sailaboutvic]

How can anyone say it's not a tax on boat ownership .
I don't see them taxing EU car driving in Greece or EU motor bike not even a EU horse .
As far as this miff that they only doing it to catch Greeks boat owners , the Greeks who have boat reg under other EU flag have to buy a DEPKA and as most of us know you have to show your documents , passport and so on , which in there case will show that they are Greeks , problem solved.
I can if I had one drive my car, RV , on Greek road for the summer without having to pay road tax . With is no different then sailing my boat , if anything we do much less damage to the environment and there no money spend putting thing right like there is on the roads .
It's about time people stop defending the Greeks .

 

[Irish Rover]

Surely it’s not correct to say other tourists don’t pay tax in Greece. As far as I know there’s a nightly room tax payable by the guests in all registered hotels, guest houses etc and VAT is also payable on the room rate. Foreigners bringing their cars into Greece will find it impossible to avoid road tolls which can be extremely expensive. Apart from the Corinth canal do we as private boat owners pay any similar charges unless we opt to berth in marinas or town harbour?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Surely it’s not correct to say other tourists don’t pay tax in Greece. As far as I know there’s a nightly room tax payable by the guests in all registered hotels, guest houses etc and VAT is also payable on the room rate. Foreigners bringing their cars into Greece will find it impossible to avoid road tolls which can be extremely expensive. Apart from the Corinth canal do we as private boat owners pay any similar charges unless we opt to berth in marinas or town harbour?

I couldn't say there is a nightly room tax or not but if there is it's on the room and not charged for people coming and going to that room , and that been my point every time this tax rear it's head , the tax should be on mooring fees be it on harbour walls or a marina berth , in which case any Greek who wants to avoid tax by reg under another flag won't get away with it .
As for all other EU boats its a fairer way to tax them ,
The French tax all the boat owners no matter where there boat is kept and so do the Italian so these EU boat owner are going to be paying tax twices for ownering a boat .
With regards to people reg there boats under other EU flag , let face it , it's about to stop , Holland and Belgium come to that us with our SSR are putting a stop to it unless your living in the U.K. , Croatia , well that's a mind field and there no advantage, France you would have to pay a tax , Spain there all the crap that goes with reg under Spanish flag Malta it isn't easier and costly .
This Greek tax system is unfair and the local businesses will lose out , the money that get to the gov will mostly be wasted or drain off and the Greek who so we are led to believe this tax is for will still find a way of not paying it .

 

[Chris_Robb]

I don't object to the tax in itself. What I object to is the total lack of any competence by the Greek government in its implementation.

Without the sailing organizations watching every move, we probably would have no idea there was a tax at all.

That a government can bring into force a tax with heavy fines where to comply you have to jump through significant and unreasonable hoops if not impossible hoops.....ie fly back specially to haul your boat out to put it out of Use and then go home again. This is against all tests of good law.

We now have a new contact whose job title is "coordinator of reform actions".
He apparently is the glue between 5 or 6 departments access government. Let's see if he has any idea as to what is happening.

 

[nortada]

I couldn't say there is a nightly room tax or not but if there is it's on the room and not charged for people coming and going to that room , and that been my point every time this tax rear it's head , the tax should be on mooring fees be it on harbour walls or a marina berth , in which case any Greek who wants to avoid tax by reg under another flag won't get away with it .
As for all other EU boats its a fairer way to tax them ,
The French tax all the boat owners no matter where there boat is kept and so do the Italian so these EU boat owner are going to be paying tax twices for ownering a boat .
With regards to people reg there boats under other EU flag , let face it , it's about to stop , Holland and Belgium come to that us with our SSR are putting a stop to it unless your living in the U.K. , Croatia , well that's a mind field and there no advantage, France you would have to pay a tax , Spain there all the crap that goes with reg under Spanish flag Malta it isn't easier and costly .
This Greek tax system is unfair and the local businesses will lose out , the money that get to the gov will mostly be wasted or drain off and the Greek who so we are led to believe this tax is for will still find a way of not paying it .

Bad night?

I note Portugal is not in your rant!:encouragement:

 

[sailaboutvic]

Bad night?

I note Portugal is not in your rant!:encouragement:

The small mount of tax portugal charges boat are not worth talking about

 

[GTom]

How can anyone say it's not a tax on boat ownership .
I don't see them taxing EU car driving in Greece or EU motor bike not even a EU horse .
As far as this miff that they only doing it to catch Greeks boat owners , the Greeks who have boat reg under other EU flag have to buy a DEPKA and as most of us know you have to show your documents , passport and so on , which in there case will show that they are Greeks , problem solved.
I can if I had one drive my car, RV , on Greek road for the summer without having to pay road tax . With is no different then sailing my boat , if anything we do much less damage to the environment and there no money spend putting thing right like there is on the roads .
It's about time people stop defending the Greeks .

Same for the Croats. However, highway fees are worse than taxation there...

 

[Chris_Robb]

A note from Kalamata Marina about the tax. Note that fines feature prominently in the "price" list. We hope that the Greek Government will see sense about fines this year. (Pull the other one)

And as yet, we have little idea where or how we can pay. Presume initial payments will be to Port Police - or a bloody tax office miles from where you are...... In which case, I am off to Turkey. Its not the money - its the sheer nuisance value of it, and frankly the Greeks are just plain insulting to do this without instructions.

Information on the Fee for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships (TEPAH)

We would like to inform you that, following a recent law, a new fee (TEPAH) applies to private and professional pleasure boats and professional tourism day cruise ships exceeding seven (7) meters in length for each month they remain within Greek territorial waters, regardless of their flag.

The TE.PA.H is calculated on the basis of the overall length (LOA) of the vessel as per the following table:

Length of ship	Fee (€)	Fines for non-payment (€)
From 7 to 8 meters	16 per month	190
From 8 to 10 meters	25 per month	300
From 10 to 12 meters	33 per month	400
12 meter and more	8 per meter per month	1.200

The TEPAH is paid for each month of stay in Greek territorial waters. The payment is made before the beginning of the month for which the fee is due and may also cover more than one month.
The fee may be paid in one instalment for the entire year. In this case, payment is made either in December of the previous year or in January of this year.

For payment of the TEPAH, an electronic payment code (e-Paravolo) and payment via bank as well as transfer via SEPA are required. If issuance of an electronic payment code is not possible, payment shall be made to any Tax Office or Port or Customs Authority.

Reductions/discounts are applied in the following cases :
(a) a reduction of 25% for vessels, carrying a Greek Professional Liscense, greater than 12 meters in length, a reduction of 25% (conditional upon dedicated professional use)
(b) a reduction of 20% if the (professional or private) vessels enter and remain in ports within Greek territory during the current calendar year and provided they pay an advance lump sum payment for the fee for the entire calendar year. A reduction of 20% shall be granted to commercial ships in addition to the reduction of 25%.
(c) a 10% discount for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships in the event of prepayment of the fee for 12 months, provided that the lump-sum payment is made in January of the current calendar year, or in December of the previous year to which it relates.

Payment Exemptions
TEPAH is not applicable for the following vessel categories:
(a) Decommissioned or confiscated vessels, for the period of their decommissioning or confiscation.
(b) Ships characterised as “traditional” ships
(c) Vessels in immobility (Out of Use).

It should be noted that, the immobility refers to the period of time that the “Certificate of Nationality” or the “Vessel Running Permit” has been submitted to the Port Authorities, at the request of the owner of the boat or his legally authorized person. In this way, the above mentioned cost of TEPAH will be reduced for the out of use period of time of the boat. In order to remove the immobility, proof of payment of TEPAH is required.

We remain at your disposal for any clarification and any help we may provide

 

[OldBawley]

A note from Kalamata Marina about the tax. Note that fines feature prominently in the "price" list. We hope that the Greek Government will see sense about fines this year. (Pull the other one)

And as yet, we have little idea where or how we can pay. Presume initial payments will be to Port Police - or a bloody tax office miles from where you are...... In which case, I am off to Turkey. Its not the money - its the sheer nuisance value of it, and frankly the Greeks are just plain insulting to do this without instructions.

Information on the Fee for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships (TEPAH)

We would like to inform you that, following a recent law, a new fee (TEPAH) applies to private and professional pleasure boats and professional tourism day cruise ships exceeding seven (7) meters in length for each month they remain within Greek territorial waters, regardless of their flag.

The TE.PA.H is calculated on the basis of the overall length (LOA) of the vessel as per the following table:

Length of ship	Fee (€)	Fines for non-payment (€)
From 7 to 8 meters	16 per month	190
From 8 to 10 meters	25 per month	300
From 10 to 12 meters	33 per month	400
12 meter and more	8 per meter per month	1.200

The TEPAH is paid for each month of stay in Greek territorial waters. The payment is made before the beginning of the month for which the fee is due and may also cover more than one month.
The fee may be paid in one instalment for the entire year. In this case, payment is made either in December of the previous year or in January of this year.

For payment of the TEPAH, an electronic payment code (e-Paravolo) and payment via bank as well as transfer via SEPA are required. If issuance of an electronic payment code is not possible, payment shall be made to any Tax Office or Port or Customs Authority.

Reductions/discounts are applied in the following cases :
(a) a reduction of 25% for vessels, carrying a Greek Professional Liscense, greater than 12 meters in length, a reduction of 25% (conditional upon dedicated professional use)
(b) a reduction of 20% if the (professional or private) vessels enter and remain in ports within Greek territory during the current calendar year and provided they pay an advance lump sum payment for the fee for the entire calendar year. A reduction of 20% shall be granted to commercial ships in addition to the reduction of 25%.
(c) a 10% discount for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships in the event of prepayment of the fee for 12 months, provided that the lump-sum payment is made in January of the current calendar year, or in December of the previous year to which it relates.

Payment Exemptions
TEPAH is not applicable for the following vessel categories:
(a) Decommissioned or confiscated vessels, for the period of their decommissioning or confiscation.
(b) Ships characterised as “traditional” ships
(c) Vessels in immobility (Out of Use).

It should be noted that, the immobility refers to the period of time that the “Certificate of Nationality” or the “Vessel Running Permit” has been submitted to the Port Authorities, at the request of the owner of the boat or his legally authorized person. In this way, the above mentioned cost of TEPAH will be reduced for the out of use period of time of the boat. In order to remove the immobility, proof of payment of TEPAH is required.

We remain at your disposal for any clarification and any help we may provide

Any idea what is a “traditional “ ship ?
I sail a wooden yacht build in 1945 and traditional looking ( lots of sticks and rags )
Who will decide if a yacht is traditional ?

 

[sailaboutvic]

Any idea what is a “traditional “ ship ?
I sail a wooden yacht build in 1945 and traditional looking ( lots of sticks and rags )
Who will decide if a yacht is traditional ?

As normal every PP with have there own idea what a traditional ship is .
mine was build in 2001 and it's very traditional , it has a mast and two sails

 

[sailaboutvic]

A note from Kalamata Marina about the tax. Note that fines feature prominently in the "price" list. We hope that the Greek Government will see sense about fines this year. (Pull the other one)

And as yet, we have little idea where or how we can pay. Presume initial payments will be to Port Police - or a bloody tax office miles from where you are...... In which case, I am off to Turkey. Its not the money - its the sheer nuisance value of it, and frankly the Greeks are just plain insulting to do this without instructions.

Information on the Fee for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships (TEPAH)

We would like to inform you that, following a recent law, a new fee (TEPAH) applies to private and professional pleasure boats and professional tourism day cruise ships exceeding seven (7) meters in length for each month they remain within Greek territorial waters, regardless of their flag.

The TE.PA.H is calculated on the basis of the overall length (LOA) of the vessel as per the following table:

Length of ship	Fee (€)	Fines for non-payment (€)
From 7 to 8 meters	16 per month	190
From 8 to 10 meters	25 per month	300
From 10 to 12 meters	33 per month	400
12 meter and more	8 per meter per month	1.200

The TEPAH is paid for each month of stay in Greek territorial waters. The payment is made before the beginning of the month for which the fee is due and may also cover more than one month.
The fee may be paid in one instalment for the entire year. In this case, payment is made either in December of the previous year or in January of this year.

For payment of the TEPAH, an electronic payment code (e-Paravolo) and payment via bank as well as transfer via SEPA are required. If issuance of an electronic payment code is not possible, payment shall be made to any Tax Office or Port or Customs Authority.

Reductions/discounts are applied in the following cases :
(a) a reduction of 25% for vessels, carrying a Greek Professional Liscense, greater than 12 meters in length, a reduction of 25% (conditional upon dedicated professional use)
(b) a reduction of 20% if the (professional or private) vessels enter and remain in ports within Greek territory during the current calendar year and provided they pay an advance lump sum payment for the fee for the entire calendar year. A reduction of 20% shall be granted to commercial ships in addition to the reduction of 25%.
(c) a 10% discount for Pleasure Boats and Day Cruise Ships in the event of prepayment of the fee for 12 months, provided that the lump-sum payment is made in January of the current calendar year, or in December of the previous year to which it relates.

Payment Exemptions
TEPAH is not applicable for the following vessel categories:
(a) Decommissioned or confiscated vessels, for the period of their decommissioning or confiscation.
(b) Ships characterised as “traditional” ships
(c) Vessels in immobility (Out of Use).

It should be noted that, the immobility refers to the period of time that the “Certificate of Nationality” or the “Vessel Running Permit” has been submitted to the Port Authorities, at the request of the owner of the boat or his legally authorized person. In this way, the above mentioned cost of TEPAH will be reduced for the out of use period of time of the boat. In order to remove the immobility, proof of payment of TEPAH is required.

We remain at your disposal for any clarification and any help we may provide

I am just knocked back how many people we met even at this late date that don't know anything about the tax , I lost count how many don't believe the tax will ( might be ) in on April , and only a hand full of boats of 12 mts all that cross oceans have said they plain to go to Greece for the whole season , most have cut there time going to spend in Greece to just months other as long as it take to cross Greek water to get to Turkey .
Where my believe was once that the small amount of boats that won't go to Greece or stay in Greece isn't going to make much different to the Greek economy , my view have changed and other then high season when the place if over filled with charter boat I start to think the Greece are in for a shock especially Jan to May and sept to Dec .
Top that with full time liveaboard who now will have to spend over €1000 to stay on board all year round add that to cost of marina winter mooring in Greece which is no longer cheap , how many are going to say ,bugger it for the sake of a few days sailing there will be much better off else where like Sicily, Italy and Turkey .
What ever the out come it's not going to befits the locals of Greece .