Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
Greeks are happy to welcome all comers too. The problem is the bureaucracy endemic in the Greek system - inherited from the Byzantines...
Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA
- Thread starter Chris_Robb
- Start date
Greeks are happy to welcome all comers too. The problem is the bureaucracy endemic in the Greek system - inherited from the Byzantines...
Mr Cassandra
Well-Known Member
This morning I spoke with my friend the Master Sergeant of the Porto Rafti customs coast guard boat 510.
He said that IHO the tax will not be implemented this year as there is not a computer system set up, no paper work issued and not sufficient work force.
Another interesting thing he said was going through,is that all boat will need AIS systems installed so that they can track .
He said that IHO the tax will not be implemented this year as there is not a computer system set up, no paper work issued and not sufficient work force.
Another interesting thing he said was going through,is that all boat will need AIS systems installed so that they can track .
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Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Interesting information, delay seems possible.
Mandatory AIS doesn't seem likely to be a winner, I assume you aren't talking about receive only systems. Even large power boats don't have AIS (or never turn it on) in Greece. Pretty certain I have seen plenty of commercial boats without it as well. If they managed to fit AIS to everything above 10m I'd never turn alarms on. A significant proportion of boats with AIS never turn it off and are tied up for months with it on (even spotted some ashore in yards).
I doubt they have a lot less ability to enforce mandatory AIS than collect a cruising tax. Perhaps it is being driven by a need to monitor people trafficers. Thank goodness that group are so law abiding and likely to fit AIS. I suppose they might stand out by absence of AIS when their radar reflector give their position away.
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alexsailor
Well-Known Member
AIS? eh... come on.... Nothing will happen. Siga siga..
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Here's hoping
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Me too wouldn't mind another year in Greece . Got to end of April before we head west or east
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Hopefully the situation will be clearer by then Vic
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
Each to his own of course, but I just don't get this 'how dare they tax me, I'm leaving' attitude. Sure, someone in a 12m boat could end up paying 1000 Euros a year, but that works out to one bottle of beer in a bar a day. For a country that has offered so much to cruisers in the past, and which continues to offer so much, stomping off in disgust over the price of a beer a day is a bit over the top don't you think?
One other point you might consider is that the determination of Brexit supporters to prevent Greeks, as EU citizens, from having free movement into the UK doesn't make Brits the flavour of the month here. Abandoning Greece when you're asked to stump up the price of an extra beer a day might make Greeks think the Brits want to have their cake and eat it as well....
One other point you might consider is that the determination of Brexit supporters to prevent Greeks, as EU citizens, from having free movement into the UK doesn't make Brits the flavour of the month here. Abandoning Greece when you're asked to stump up the price of an extra beer a day might make Greeks think the Brits want to have their cake and eat it as well....
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
For me the cost is not that great, all I am hoping for is the situation is clear with enough notice being given so we can pay the tax and get ourselves legal when it does come in so we don't end up paying a fine
Mr Cassandra
Well-Known Member
Another thing he said was Thousands of Greek boats owned by people that never pay tax ,hiding being dual identities and companies, there's years of work sorting them out alone the foreigner.
However ,we shall see.
However ,we shall see.
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Tony if your remark was suppose to refir to my posting , well sir , I m the skipper of my boat and I go where ever I please .
If I don't wish to pay the Tax , that's down to me , we will just sail else where it's nothing out of my pocket , where if I stayed I would be out of pocket , having to pay a tax for visiting an EU country , I don't see people flying in on holiday paying a tax , and most of us will contribute a hell of a lot more then the couple staying in a hotel .
just like it's down to you if you want to stay and pay.
OH I forgot you no long have a boat .
We became liveaboard to cruise, not to go back to the same country and marina year after year .
we all know how much you care about Greece and it economy , I don't .
I pay a good chunk in taxes each year and it sicking me to think part of that one way or another goes to Greece when a very large portion of Greeks have for many years and still do go out of their way to avoid paying what they own .
If more people packed up and left , the tax wouldn't last a season .
I am please you made Greece your home , but unlike you I haven't and have no plain too or support them other then what I pay for goods and services .
Last point as far as Brexit stopping Greek having free monument in the U.K. , why should they ? when we have to pay to get free movement in Greece.
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Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
It wasn't particularly directed at anyone, several people have been saying they will leave. But that aside, you obviously missed my opening sentence; each to his own of course. Your rather aggressive response is also unwarranted, there are other ways of disagreeing....
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Guys. Keep this cooooool.
My thoughts are that there is no evidence of a computer system at the moment. Also last time the Port Police refused to do the collection. So I doubt they have changed their minds.
No contact or answers forthcoming- a pattern that leads one to think that it is not going to happen which is what happenex the last 2 times.
One lives in hope.
My thoughts are that there is no evidence of a computer system at the moment. Also last time the Port Police refused to do the collection. So I doubt they have changed their minds.
No contact or answers forthcoming- a pattern that leads one to think that it is not going to happen which is what happenex the last 2 times.
One lives in hope.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I hope you are right but of course the PP reluctance to collect money has been worked around with the DEKPA so presumably the same or similar will apply for the tax.
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
It wasn't particularly directed at anyone, several people have been saying they will leave. But that aside, you obviously missed my opening sentence; each to his own of course. Your rather aggressive response is also unwarranted, there are other ways of disagreeing....
Maybe it because I getting a bit pissed off being told I should pay up .
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
I'm genuinely sorry if I pissed you off.
My point is that when you look at a 12m boat paying a beer a day it isn't the enormous sum it appears to be. Sadly in life everything has a cost.
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
I'm genuinely sorry if I pissed you off.
My point is that when you look at a 12m boat paying a beer a day it isn't the enormous sum it appears to be. Sadly in life everything has a cost.
I understand where you are coming from but your comparison to beer was a bit unfortunate. A beer a day for a whole year including Sundays is OK when the buyer gets to drink it himself but not OK when he virtually has to pour it down the throat of a Greek who avoids effectively buying his own by not paying his tax.
A better comparison would be Marina charges in other countries instead of all the free anchorages in Greece.
Edit; I am not Vic and my boat is less than 10 meters. Just trying to help and cool the discussion. Even if it does add a bit of entertainment to a sad subject.
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sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Has I have said time and time again , I have no problem having to pay a extra tax on mooring fee's ,
be it a marina or a harbour wall , I don't mine paying a tourist tax as long as every other tourist be it they sail/car/ferry or plane pay it as well ,
what I do strongly object to is a tax to sail through another EU country ,
Before anyone says Croatia is a EU country and you'r tax there , the different with Croatia is every tourist is tax , same as Holland you pay a tax each night when you stay in a marina or a hotel .
If the tax come in I am more then happy to cruise else where , the only losers are Greek business and the Greek government at less for the foreseeable future , by which time they may have seen sense , and if I decide to visit Turkey it just mean a long non stop trip which isn't a big deal for us .
Me personally don't own Greece anything , they supply me with a good cruising ground and I in return spend my hard earn money in the country .
The only thing we will miss is the large amount of friends we have with much small boat that will stay .
Although the a good portion with larger boat have make it clear there too will be leaving .
be it a marina or a harbour wall , I don't mine paying a tourist tax as long as every other tourist be it they sail/car/ferry or plane pay it as well ,
what I do strongly object to is a tax to sail through another EU country ,
Before anyone says Croatia is a EU country and you'r tax there , the different with Croatia is every tourist is tax , same as Holland you pay a tax each night when you stay in a marina or a hotel .
If the tax come in I am more then happy to cruise else where , the only losers are Greek business and the Greek government at less for the foreseeable future , by which time they may have seen sense , and if I decide to visit Turkey it just mean a long non stop trip which isn't a big deal for us .
Me personally don't own Greece anything , they supply me with a good cruising ground and I in return spend my hard earn money in the country .
The only thing we will miss is the large amount of friends we have with much small boat that will stay .
Although the a good portion with larger boat have make it clear there too will be leaving .
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Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
But Vic, that doesn't really make sense. What's the difference between a country charging a tax on the use of their marinas and charging a tax on the use of their waters? The only difference I can see is that you can choose to avoid the first but not the second...
I don't doubt that a good many boats will leave, and I understand very well why a high proportion of those would be over 12m boats. The structure of the (current) tax is clearly unfair. Whether enough boats will leave to worry the Greek government and/or whether the loss of visitor revenues outweighs the additional tax collected from Greek boat owners remains to be seen.
grumpygit
Well-Known Member
I sold my 15m yacht and now ashore in Greece so I'm not being overly worried with the tax on my just under 8m yacht. I can understand why folk with bigger craft will move on to a different cruising area. One can only hazard a guess where one might go to improve on the ease and beauty of Greece.
Those that think the Greeks will loose out, imho I think not too much. Liveaboards with normally two persons on board are mostly frugal people with their pennies. The big bucks mostly comes from the charterers, 4/6/8/10 persons on boards that generally eat in the taverna's (even the bad one's) and only shopping for breakfast, snacks and booze. They have 1 or 2 weeks to blow their holiday spendings and generally do this with vigour. This market has grown so much in the ten years I've been in Greece, as in bigger boats and bigger crews and I think this trend will carry on with sizeable growth as long as people have a disposable income.
A few years ago a Greek government working group went to Croatia to study how they were dealing with the charter and cruising tourism. They came back and the first thing was the start of the implementation of a Greek Cruising Tax to law.
The other main thing on the agenda was the ability to apply for tenders to build marinas, this is very slowly starting to take interest with the such as the development of Porto Heli and others around Greece, this I believe will eventually lead to the increase of mooring charges generally.
The Greeks may love to follow Croatia's model but they just won't do it as well, it just isn't in their make up so don't worry with this tax becoming imminent on the date that's been banded about, I just can't see it happening . . . . . but I may be wrong!
Those that think the Greeks will loose out, imho I think not too much. Liveaboards with normally two persons on board are mostly frugal people with their pennies. The big bucks mostly comes from the charterers, 4/6/8/10 persons on boards that generally eat in the taverna's (even the bad one's) and only shopping for breakfast, snacks and booze. They have 1 or 2 weeks to blow their holiday spendings and generally do this with vigour. This market has grown so much in the ten years I've been in Greece, as in bigger boats and bigger crews and I think this trend will carry on with sizeable growth as long as people have a disposable income.
A few years ago a Greek government working group went to Croatia to study how they were dealing with the charter and cruising tourism. They came back and the first thing was the start of the implementation of a Greek Cruising Tax to law.
The other main thing on the agenda was the ability to apply for tenders to build marinas, this is very slowly starting to take interest with the such as the development of Porto Heli and others around Greece, this I believe will eventually lead to the increase of mooring charges generally.
The Greeks may love to follow Croatia's model but they just won't do it as well, it just isn't in their make up so don't worry with this tax becoming imminent on the date that's been banded about, I just can't see it happening . . . . . but I may be wrong!