Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[sailaboutvic]

Well after 28 years of sailing in and out of Greece only missing out between 2008 and 2011 And the odd season now and then we won't be returning any time soon I sorry to say , and if we decide at some point to visit Turkey again we will sail pass , it's a real shame but I not ready to give the Greek Gov over € 100 pm to sail in there waters when there so many other cruising ground which are free , it's also a shame for local businesses as we are known to spend 10k in a season taken in account if we haul out and working on our boat and at time much more , so there no winners but loser all round including us .
We can only hope that against what some believe that there be a mass exit of boats and the Greek gov change its policy but I not holding my breath .
Ofcause as it happen many time before the tax may not happen so let's hope that's the case .
For most with boats under 12mts its not going to be a big deal at € 30 pm but remember one thing it's won't stay at that the same way the DEKPA as gone up so will the cruising tax .

 

[vasant]

just a hint here. New government is elected later this year so i would say odds are that at April 2nd a new postoponement is announced.

 

[sailaboutvic]

just a hint here. New government is elected later this year so i would say odds are that at April 2nd a new postoponement is announced.

Fingers cross we wouldn't mine returning back to Greece at some point .

 

[BurnitBlue]

I wonder if there will be a discount for cash with no receipt

LOL good one Davy, Just noticed that I had a whoosh moment in my first reply to your query. Very good, sorry.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Been thinking about the usual way a government publicises a new law. I guess normally, nothing is published. The governments fine for non-compliance which spreads the word quite quickly. Job done, not fair but I think this is normal.

Perhaps a fair way would be to advise prospective tourists via the embassy website in the target country. Each embassy in different countries have fluent host country speakers quite able to give the gist of a new requirement that would be applicable to tourists.

Vasant: There could well be a delay because there are areas in the law that need to be answered. Like "out of use". Also how legal is it to sell one year usage "tax" and yet deny usage for third tier countries and limit their usage for 90 days in 180. Something not right there I think.

 

[Tony Cross]

just a hint here. New government is elected later this year so i would say odds are that at April 2nd a new postoponement is announced.

I doubt New Democracy, who are likely to form the next government, would take a radically different view on this tax. I believe it's part of a raft of measures agreed with the creditors some years ago, it's supposed to raise 22 million Euros..

I too think a universal tax is a mistake, though I understand why Greece has gone down this road. TBH I don't think that Greece is going to give up on this tax, or a similar tax, without having at least tried it. I'm sure they're well aware of the possibility of visiting yachts leaving but I also think they think that the revenue collected from those that stay, and the Greeks themselves, will offset any potential losses in reduced numbers of visitors.

I'm pretty sure, as I suspect most others on here are, that the tax will prove to be a failure and will be withdrawn within a couple of years, but I think they are pretty determined to try it.....

 

[BurnitBlue]

Tony Cross, I agree the implantation will go through but maybe with a delay to sort out the flaws. On another note, you are IT literate and I would like to ask you a question. How long would it take you to set up a on-line giro type account with automatic email receipts. I would guess at about ten minutes actual work. Just interested because this type of payment is already in use in Sweden. Some of them are quite sophisticated, for instance electric supply companies have a website where the actual bill to be paid can be accessed with "bank-id or password" A few more clicks and bill is paid and a receipt sent. Ok that sort of website will take a tad over ten minutes.

Edit: OOps forgot the main question, "how long will it take Greece to implement such an IT solution"?

 

[Tony Cross]

Tony Cross, I agree the implantation will go through but maybe with a delay to sort out the flaws. On another note, you are IT literate and I would like to ask you a question. How long would it take you to set up a on-line giro type account with automatic email receipts. I would guess at about ten minutes actual work. Just interested because this type of payment is already in use in Sweden. Some of them are quite sophisticated, for instance electric supply companies have a website where the actual bill to be paid can be accessed with "bank-id or password" A few more clicks and bill is paid and a receipt sent. Ok that sort of website will take a tad over ten minutes.

Edit: OOps forgot the main question, "how long will it take Greece to implement such an IT solution"?

I spent most of my working life in operating system support on large mainframes and I've been involved in quite a few IT projects. They are rather like an iceberg and are rarely as simple as they first appear. I'm not defending Greece's inaction in this area, in fact the lack of joined up IT systems is one reason why self assessed tax payers can get away with gross under-reporting, but the desire to 'have something up and running quickly' almost always leads to an expensive, unreliable, and difficult to scale system. The UK gvernment's record on IT systems development is hardly stellar is it?

Personally, and based on no evidence, I suspect that the real problems with the chaotic way this tax is/is not being implemented is a bit like Brexit, the Greek government is split on whether this really is the right way to go.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Edit: OOps forgot the main question, "how long will it take Greece to implement such an IT solution"?

Quicker than our crappy civil servants could do it. No doubt

 

[BurnitBlue]

I spent most of my working life in operating system support on large mainframes and I've been involved in quite a few IT projects. They are rather like an iceberg and are rarely as simple as they first appear. I'm not defending Greece's inaction in this area, in fact the lack of joined up IT systems is one reason why self assessed tax payers can get away with gross under-reporting, but the desire to 'have something up and running quickly' almost always leads to an expensive, unreliable, and difficult to scale system. The UK gvernment's record on IT systems development is hardly stellar is it?

Personally, and based on no evidence, I suspect that the real problems with the chaotic way this tax is/is not being implemented is a bit like Brexit, the Greek government is split on whether this really is the right way to go.

Good answer. It seems so easy when using a well set up system. I have no experience of UK systems. The Swedish system works but suffers from the usual sensitivity for absolutely correct user input. One digit wrong and you get two more attempts before getting thrown off. Talk of stress when down to the last attempt.

 

[Mistroma]

I spent most of my working life in operating system support on large mainframes and I've been involved in quite a few IT projects. They are rather like an iceberg and are rarely as simple as they first appear. I'm not defending Greece's inaction in this area, in fact the lack of joined up IT systems is one reason why self assessed tax payers can get away with gross under-reporting, but the desire to 'have something up and running quickly' almost always leads to an expensive, unreliable, and difficult to scale system. The UK gvernment's record on IT systems development is hardly stellar is it?

Personally, and based on no evidence, I suspect that the real problems with the chaotic way this tax is/is not being implemented is a bit like Brexit, the Greek government is split on whether this really is the right way to go.

Yes, minute amount of work when starting from scratch and setting up payments for a small company. Trying to join it up to existing systems and having it run by a government department is a whole different ball game. Everyone wants a say, other systems are usually ancient and not understood. You get endless arguments about the meaning of seemingly obvious things. Work is often thrown out when a later re-definition of something proves that your original interpretation was actually correct after all.

No idea about the Greek government but imagine they are unlikely to be better than our lot.

I tried to avoid these projects as much as possible as Project Managers often had stress issues.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Yes, minute amount of work when starting from scratch and setting up payments for a small company. Trying to join it up to existing systems and having it run by a government department is a whole different ball game. Everyone wants a say, other systems are usually ancient and not understood. You get endless arguments about the meaning of seemingly obvious things. Work is often thrown out when a later re-definition of something proves that your original interpretation was actually correct after all.

No idea about the Greek government but imagine they are unlikely to be better than our lot.

I tried to avoid these projects as much as possible as Project Managers often had stress issues.

They are creating a new registration data base for the yachts. This may or may not be part of the existing Yacht reg system for professional yachts, however I suspect it will, as all Greek Vessels will have to pay the tax and link to their tax account. SO now it has to comply with a system designed probably for cars no doubt. (remember the TI change on yachts to 6 months - that was because they were going to use the system that records non Greek cars time in Greece and they didnt want to change the programs - you got to laugh....)

They will use the existing Greek payment system which uses an international payment system - cant remember what its called - begins with S (not swift).

They have to set up a system that will record the vessels details (easy) then link in the Port Police Out of use records (not so easy - another system part of another greek tax on Greek boats only) not so easy. Put in the logic of monthly payments, and with luck payments from date of entry rather than monthly. So they ought to look at the French canal system payments which 10 years ago was doddle.

If it was stand alone - it would be easy - but its cannot be as some payers are already registered on the Tax system etc others wont be (i hope)

As Vasant has said - the advent of Octobers elections may just get the whole thing canned down the road in Usual EU fashion. Probably why I am not getting answers - that was the reason last time that all communications ceased. We can but hope!

 

[tony12345]

Does it apply to Greek owned or registered boats? I missed that. I imagine the Greeks will be pretty mad if so. Given that there is no tie up between any of the systems when obtaining a DEKPA I can't see this being any better TBH. I also can't see the port police wanting anything to do with it. I can't see any way they can manage/store/keep safe hundreds of DEKPAs if we have to hand them in to prove not in use for example.

 

[Tony Cross]

Does it apply to Greek owned or registered boats? I missed that. I imagine the Greeks will be pretty mad if so. Given that there is no tie up between any of the systems when obtaining a DEKPA I can't see this being any better TBH. I also can't see the port police wanting anything to do with it. I can't see any way they can manage/store/keep safe hundreds of DEKPAs if we have to hand them in to prove not in use for example.

It's specifically aimed at Greek registered and/or owned boats.

There is a luxury tax payable in Greece if you own a boat and many Greeks avoid this tax by creating a company in a favourable location (Delaware and Connecticut in the USA are common), or using relatives in foreign countries, and registering the boat as owned by that company/relative. The local Greek then doesn't pay the luxury tax because (on paper) he/she doesn't own the boat. This universal boat tax is the only way Greece can force it's citizens to pay the luxury tax they owe that they can't avoid. That visiting yachts have been caught up in this net is unfortunate but I do think that Greece believes the gains outweigh the losses - at least until they've tried it...

 

[nortada]

Having followed this thread with interest, I wonder how may folk will quit Greek Waters and make their way west and what will be their planned destination?

 

[RupertW]

Having followed this thread with interest, I wonder how may folk will quit Greek Waters and make their way west and what will be their planned destination?

We did make leave Greece after 3 years and returned to Croatia before the tax hit - but have moved on from there now as Croatia introducted a much more unfair tax (treating every bunk in your boat as occupied by a paying guest every night anyone is onboard) but of course did it so quickly that we just had one season before moving on to the Balearics.

It is pushing onwards with exploring though, so perhaps a disguised blessing.

 

[BurnitBlue]

That is basically my reason for moving on. I have enjoyed my time in Greece. Nice civilized people, good mostly free anchorages. Calm nights at anchor. But I didn't buy a boat to stay in one place. I am surprised I have stayed so long here, 5 years since I bought the boat. I think the term used is "Honey trap" I know Velcro bay is used to describe the main Ionian anchorage.

Anyway the delights of Greece are only a tad diminished by the tax. The main problem all EU cruising grounds will suffer will be the 90 in 180 rule. Greece is not an easy place to get to, especially in winter so that would mean a maximum of 90 summer days for me. Of course this will only apply with no deal.

Edit My boat is registered at less than 10 meters. Those owners with boats longer than 12 meters will have a different take on paying the tax. But as Tony Cross says this is the size of boat targeted for the tax, Greek owners of super yachts. Us leisure boat owners smaller that 12 metres have been included at a much lower tax do deflect complaints from the targets and to appear fair. I think.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Having followed this thread with interest, I wonder how may folk will quit Greek Waters and make their way west and what will be their planned destination?

What are the cost difference between Portugal and Greece .

 

[nortada]

What are the cost difference between Portugal and Greece .

Good question but not being in Greece, one I cannot answer.

Possibly somebody else can do costings for Portugal (The Algarve).

As a start there is no cruising tax, light dues are about €11 per annum and should you wish you can live on the hook for free in the Guadiana, Culatra or Alvor for as long as you wish.

Having spent time in Greece and Portugal, I found the local people very similar - delightful so I feel it is more a case of the attitude of the authorities.

From what I read, it appears that sailing in Greece carries a lot of over tones that do not exist in Portugal; where they are just so happy to welcome all comers.

 

[sailaboutvic]

We did make leave Greece after 3 years and returned to Croatia before the tax hit - but have moved on from there now as Croatia introducted a much more unfair tax (treating every bunk in your boat as occupied by a paying guest every night anyone is onboard) but of course did it so quickly that we just had one season before moving on to the Balearics.

It is pushing onwards with exploring though, so perhaps a disguised blessing.

As I understand it Croatia tax is being reduced this year .