Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[BurnitBlue]

The SSR is not a "record". The details are not recorded anywhere but on the piece of paper and nobody has access to that except you. Absolutely no point in changing it. Insurance company insure you and I cannot think of any situation where the length of the boat shown on the SSR would have any influence over a claim. You claim under the insurance contract and nowhere will it say that the length of the boat is a condition of insurance.

I am certain that the insurance company or the agent Bishop Skinner had access to my SSR details simply because there was no way on this planet I would give them my brothers address. I asked them if it was OK for me to use my Swedish address and they said no problem as long as the boat was British registered. Yet when I got the insurance "notes" the address was my brothers not my Swedish address. It was some time ago but I am pretty sure that the length and manufacture came off the SSR and not from me. I would have had no reason to knock a few centimetres of an insurance application. I hope you are correct Tranona (you usually are) and my concerns are baseless.

 

[Irish Rover]

As you say Tranona is usually correct but not always I’m sure. I’d say if you had a major claim and the insurance company found out you gave them details you knew to be false they’d give you a run for your money.

 

[BurnitBlue]

As you say Tranona is usually correct but not always I’m sure. I’d say if you had a major claim and the insurance company found out you gave them details you knew to be false they’d give you a run for your money.

My thoughts exactly. The point that concerns me is that if I gave the insurance company all the details I would have no reason for a convenience address or knocking a few centimetres off the length so they got the details from somewhere else. The only place my brothers address is connected to my boat is via the SSR. As Tranona suggests, OAL is basically a variable where davits, vane gears, over-hanging anchors etc are used for the users (marinas) profit.

A far as the Greek tax and OAL are concerned a few centimetres under 10M are more of a smug satisfaction than a genuine financial victory.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Here a interesting bit of info from Croatia , it is translated so nothing to do with me.

( In the summer, the Croatian authorities, together with the marina operators and the nautical sector, had been discussing a correction of the 2018 drastically increased turfing fees. This was intended to meet the displeasure of many owners and in the industry in general, as it was feared the exodus of boat owners to Italy or other areas. Some port operators had observed just that. Apparently a limit had been crossed for a number of boat owners with the last increase.

The message about the corrected tariffs now comes from a customer information of the ACI. From 2019, the prices for yachts listed on the left in the table will apply. They burden owners of smaller boats from five to nine meters higher, but especially the renewal fees for larger yachts will be significantly cheaper. Why, of all things, more money has to be paid for smaller boats was not substantiated. )

So what the difference ?
12> from 1029 down to 566 CK for the year 520 down to 444 For 90 days CK 12< 784 down to 405 CK year 392 down to 318 CK 90 days.
Which mean A 12.1 mts boat in Croatia would pay 60 euros for 90 day in croatia 96 erous a month in Greece .
Of cause you have to add the navigation fee and other bits and roughly it's another 96 euros a year for 13 mts boat . But that still don't add up to anything like the Greece tax for over 12.1 boat

 

[Tranona]

I am certain that the insurance company or the agent Bishop Skinner had access to my SSR details simply because there was no way on this planet I would give them my brothers address. I asked them if it was OK for me to use my Swedish address and they said no problem as long as the boat was British registered. Yet when I got the insurance "notes" the address was my brothers not my Swedish address. It was some time ago but I am pretty sure that the length and manufacture came off the SSR and not from me. I would have had no reason to knock a few centimetres of an insurance application. I hope you are correct Tranona (you usually are) and my concerns are baseless.

No way they would have access to the SSR without you showing your certificate. It is not a "register of record" but merely a piece of paper that says the boat is British.

The only thing that is illegal is that you do not qualify to put a boat on the SSR, but your brother does (presumably). So if you want to be legal you need to re-register on another register. You could register on either the UK part 1 because you are a UK citizen with your brother as agent, or on one of the CI registers. Either would require a tonnage survey. This would show a length that is completely different from either the one on your SSR and the one in the brochure for the boat. Your insurer would accept this length as well.

This reinforces my view that the insurance company are not in the least bit interested in the accuracy of the measure unless it changed the risk - for example if you claimed the boat was 13.5m when it was in fact 13.8m. This is material because of the change in legal requirements on British boats.

I just cannot see any claim that would be invalid just because you got the length wrong, particularly as it is consistent with an official document. Insurers query claims when the "lie" in the proposal is relevant to the claim. So for example if you said the boat was always kept in a marina in the winter then it was left on a swinging mooring and suffered damage they would refuse the claim.

So, I am afraid you have opened a bigger can of worms about the legality of your registration. The Greeks won't care, neither will your insurer because it does not change the risk. You may well have difficulty in renewing the SSR as you do not meet the residence requirements, so your options are to wait until the renewal comes up and see what happens or bite the bullet and re-register. There are of course potentially even more problems in the future for you as the status of both yourself and your boat may well change as a result of any future agreement between the UK and EU.

 

[BurnitBlue]

No way they would have access to the SSR without you showing your certificate. It is not a "register of record" but merely a piece of paper that says the boat is British.

The only thing that is illegal is that you do not qualify to put a boat on the SSR, but your brother does (presumably). So if you want to be legal you need to re-register on another register. You could register on either the UK part 1 because you are a UK citizen with your brother as agent, or on one of the CI registers. Either would require a tonnage survey. This would show a length that is completely different from either the one on your SSR and the one in the brochure for the boat. Your insurer would accept this length as well.

This reinforces my view that the insurance company are not in the least bit interested in the accuracy of the measure unless it changed the risk - for example if you claimed the boat was 13.5m when it was in fact 13.8m. This is material because of the change in legal requirements on British boats.

I just cannot see any claim that would be invalid just because you got the length wrong, particularly as it is consistent with an official document. Insurers query claims when the "lie" in the proposal is relevant to the claim. So for example if you said the boat was always kept in a marina in the winter then it was left on a swinging mooring and suffered damage they would refuse the claim.

So, I am afraid you have opened a bigger can of worms about the legality of your registration. The Greeks won't care, neither will your insurer because it does not change the risk. You may well have difficulty in renewing the SSR as you do not meet the residence requirements, so your options are to wait until the renewal comes up and see what happens or bite the bullet and re-register. There are of course potentially even more problems in the future for you as the status of both yourself and your boat may well change as a result of any future agreement between the UK and EU.

Wrong. My brother is married to a magistrate and he is a top MOD official. He needs to be squeeky clean and he researched the residency question and found one situation that allows the procedure we undertook. It may all change by brexit. But I will wait to see if anything happens.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Here a interesting bit of info from Croatia , it is translated so nothing to do with me.

( In the summer, the Croatian authorities, together with the marina operators and the nautical sector, had been discussing a correction of the 2018 drastically increased turfing fees. This was intended to meet the displeasure of many owners and in the industry in general, as it was feared the exodus of boat owners to Italy or other areas. Some port operators had observed just that. Apparently a limit had been crossed for a number of boat owners with the last increase.

The message about the corrected tariffs now comes from a customer information of the ACI. From 2019, the prices for yachts listed on the left in the table will apply. They burden owners of smaller boats from five to nine meters higher, but especially the renewal fees for larger yachts will be significantly cheaper. Why, of all things, more money has to be paid for smaller boats was not substantiated. )

So what the difference ?
12> from 1029 down to 566 CK for the year 520 down to 444 For 90 days CK 12< 784 down to 405 CK year 392 down to 318 CK 90 days.
Which mean A 12.1 mts boat in Croatia would pay 60 euros for 90 day in croatia 96 erous a month in Greece .
Of cause you have to add the navigation fee and other bits and roughly it's another 96 euros a year for 13 mts boat . But that still don't add up to anything like the Greece tax for over 12.1 boat

Good news vic. I would love to spend a month or two in Croatia. I was there for a few years during the fall of Yugoslavia. In fact my mate and I photographed a skull we found in a mass grave. The photo made it in Time Magazine. No mention that the mass grave was old. Probably from the German occupation. No flesh on any of the rags and bones. Propaganda and fake news eh. Oh yes my mate tried to sell the new marina in Bar to a Danish consortium. Got rumbled. Lots of memories.
Oh well back to tax and my escape West about.

 

[Irish Rover]

My insurance company asked for a copy of my registration certificate before issuing my insurance and the details in the policy document regarding length are taken from the certificate - I told them my boat was 10.3M but the cert says 10.29 and so does my insurance. I imagine they asked for it as a matter of convenience to verify details more than anything else and BurnitBlue may well have furnished his as well when he was first arranging insurance. Regardless of Tranona's assurances I'd be happier not giving an insurer an avoidable excuse to start questioning or delaying a claim. By the way any Tonnage Survey I've seen shows the LOA which is what's on the builders certificate/brochure and, separately, the length as defined in Tonnage Regulations.

 

[Tranona]

My insurance company asked for a copy of my registration certificate before issuing my insurance and the details in the policy document regarding length are taken from the certificate - I told them my boat was 10.3M but the cert says 10.29 and so does my insurance. I imagine they asked for it as a matter of convenience to verify details more than anything else and BurnitBlue may well have furnished his as well when he was first arranging insurance. Regardless of Tranona's assurances I'd be happier not giving an insurer an avoidable excuse to start questioning or delaying a claim. By the way any Tonnage Survey I've seen shows the LOA which is what's on the builders certificate/brochure and, separately, the length as defined in Tonnage Regulations.

Never been asked for the registration certificate by any insurance company - perhaps because in the UK registration is not compulsory. Suspect your particular situation might have some bearing on the request by your insurer.

I still fail to see how the length of the boat as shown on the certificate of insurance can have any effect on a claim. Claims are accepted or rejected on the basis of the contract terms and nowhere will it say that the length given on the proposal is part of a contract term.

Of course it makes sense to be as accurate as you can in the information you give, but this piece of information is just not material to a claim.

On many boat, particularly pre RCD there is no published information on dimensions, and even if there is, often it is incorrect. So the only course of action for owners of such boats is to self declare on both the SSR and insurance proposal. Both bodies accept self declaration.

 

[Irish Rover]

Never been asked for the registration certificate by any insurance company - perhaps because in the UK registration is not compulsory. Suspect your particular situation might have some bearing on the request by your insurer.

I still fail to see how the length of the boat as shown on the certificate of insurance can have any effect on a claim. Claims are accepted or rejected on the basis of the contract terms and nowhere will it say that the length given on the proposal is part of a contract term.

Of course it makes sense to be as accurate as you can in the information you give, but this piece of information is just not material to a claim.

On many boat, particularly pre RCD there is no published information on dimensions, and even if there is, often it is incorrect. So the only course of action for owners of such boats is to self declare on both the SSR and insurance proposal. Both bodies accept self declaration.

I don't think this is a big issue but it's raining here today so I have little else to do but answer. Self declaration is not the issue. False declaration is however. Insurance companies can be bloody minded and, as I said above, I could see a claim handler making life difficult for an owner if it came to light he had knowingly given false or incorrect information about his boat. I'm not saying a claim would fail but who wants the hassle of arguing the point especially if they've just suffered a mishap with their precious toy. But there are also circumstances where the length could potentially be material to a claim. For instance what if your boat got damaged trying to get into an unsuitable berth allocated by a marina based on your understated registered length?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

My insurance company Amlin. Specifically ask the length of the boat,
Should I tell them I own a First 37 and want them to pay out on a First 45.?

 

[Tranona]

My insurance company Amlin. Specifically ask the length of the boat,
Should I tell them I own a First 37 and want them to pay out on a First 45.?

No such thing as a First 37. However there is a 36.7, but some sources say it is 36' long and others 37'. The insurance company would accept either, because accuracy (they are probably both wrong anyway) has no impact on risk and therefore premium. A First 45 is a very different boat and risk so clearly they would reject any claim if you had insured the boat as a totally different model!

The point is the length in feet (or metres) does not have to be accurate as the criteria for insurance are you and the boat and for the latter they want to know the type and the value.

 

[Irish Rover]

No such thing as a First 37. However there is a 36.7, but some sources say it is 36' long and others 37'. The insurance company would accept either, because accuracy (they are probably both wrong anyway) has no impact on risk and therefore premium. A First 45 is a very different boat and risk so clearly they would reject any claim if you had insured the boat as a totally different model!

The point is the length in feet (or metres) does not have to be accurate as the criteria for insurance are you and the boat and for the latter they want to know the type and the value.

No mention of the model on my Part 1 Reg Cert or on my Insurance Cert. Both have the builders name and length/width.

 

[Chris_Robb]

RE Measure your Overall Length.

Regarding overall length measurement, Many yachts are measured and include some fittings that over hang the bows and stern. The most common item is the Anchor bow roller which on some modern straight stemmed yachts can be 5 - 600mm long. So if you suspect your measurement includes fittings and rubbing strake overhanging the bow and stern, then re - measure your boat. This is official as the following clipped from the SSR site shows. You never know - if your ,marked as 12.1m then this might bring you down to 12m. And its quite difficult to measure accurately, so just "get it right".


8) Measuring the Ship
In most cases owners may measure the overall length of the ship themselves (see question 4 on the application form). 'Overall length' is the distance between the foreside of the foremost fixed structure and the aftside of the aftermost permanently fixed structure of the ship. The diagrams below show between which points on most ships the measurements should be made. On multi-hulled craft, the longest hull should be measured. If you are in difficulty or require advice on measuring craft of novel design, or the vessel is found to be 24 metres or a little more in overall length you may seek assistance from the Royal Yachting Association or a qualified naval architect or ships surveyor. They may be able to confirm that the ship is less than 24 metres in length when measured in accordance with the formula contained in the Convention on Tonnage Measurements of Ships, 1969 and that it is therefore eligible to qualify for entry onto the SSR.

However, applications for such vessels cannot be made on-line and must be made using hard-copy application forms which are available from the Registry (see Contact Information link). This is because applicants must have a Statement of Length at the end of their application form, signed by a qualified naval architect or ship surveyor, stating that the ship is less than 24 metres in length when measured in accordance with the formula contained in the Convention on Tonnage Measurement of Ships, 1969.

 

[hahser]

Tax evasion, in Greece? Surely not.

There is possibly a simple remedy for this:

Bear in mind that 'marina' in Greece is often a town harbour and you can pay daily OR you pay monthly and get a discount. So if you have paid a month's mooring fee then it could be argued you have technically not left port in that time.

Depends how closely a port you visit will scrutinise your docs. This is variable but at present most only check your reg doc.

Example of costs for my Bavaria (12.8m) :
daily mooring fee 7.5 euro (this varies) - (a lot)
Discount for calendar month - 20% - works out around 6 euro pd.

 

[RichardS]

Here a interesting bit of info from Croatia , it is translated so nothing to do with me.

( In the summer, the Croatian authorities, together with the marina operators and the nautical sector, had been discussing a correction of the 2018 drastically increased turfing fees. This was intended to meet the displeasure of many owners and in the industry in general, as it was feared the exodus of boat owners to Italy or other areas. Some port operators had observed just that. Apparently a limit had been crossed for a number of boat owners with the last increase.

The message about the corrected tariffs now comes from a customer information of the ACI. From 2019, the prices for yachts listed on the left in the table will apply. They burden owners of smaller boats from five to nine meters higher, but especially the renewal fees for larger yachts will be significantly cheaper. Why, of all things, more money has to be paid for smaller boats was not substantiated. )

So what the difference ?
12> from 1029 down to 566 CK for the year 520 down to 444 For 90 days CK 12< 784 down to 405 CK year 392 down to 318 CK 90 days.
Which mean A 12.1 mts boat in Croatia would pay 60 euros for 90 day in croatia 96 erous a month in Greece .
Of cause you have to add the navigation fee and other bits and roughly it's another 96 euros a year for 13 mts boat . But that still don't add up to anything like the Greece tax for over 12.1 boat

It's good to see that the Croatians seem to be addressing the massive increase in taxes. However, I think there might be some confusion between the annual vignette and the annual/quarterly/monthly sojourn fees. I'll see if I can find out the latest news.

Richard

 

[hahser]

Like many on this thread I am reluctant to give anything but correct info to an insurer, BUT- How about this scenario:

Re-register a boat at a 'manually' checked length. So the boat has two registrations on SSR - one with a minor change to the name. Eg 'The Dream' instead of 'Dream'.
The insurance would be on the accurate rego and so avoid any claim problem.
The new 'shorter' SSR would be used for tax purposes in Greece. Occasionally insurance is asked for in GR port but it is a cursory check.

Would this work?

btw I am OK to pay a fair tax but the Greek tax system is badly designed and corrupt (I know this from painful experience) and - as it stands -unfairly penalises the increase from 11.9m to 12m.

 

[Irish Rover]

Like many on this thread I am reluctant to give anything but correct info to an insurer, BUT- How about this scenario:

Re-register a boat at a 'manually' checked length. So the boat has two registrations on SSR - one with a minor change to the name. Eg 'The Dream' instead of 'Dream'.
The insurance would be on the accurate rego and so avoid any claim problem.
The new 'shorter' SSR would be used for tax purposes in Greece. Occasionally insurance is asked for in GR port but it is a cursory check.

Would this work?

btw I am OK to pay a fair tax but the Greek tax system is badly designed and corrupt (I know this from painful experience) and - as it stands -unfairly penalises the increase from 11.9m to 12m.

Happy Christmas. Is there something ironic about a poster branding the Greek tax system corrupt while at the same time trying out a scheme to deliberately submit false information to the UK Government in order to illegally evade tax?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think most people will find ways of paying less taxes if they can , that includes employees of the inland Rev ,
It be interesting to see what happen come April , in one way for us it be a shame as I not prepaid to pay 100€ pm to sail in Greece so we miss out on the other hand it give us the push we need to explore old ground we not been to for some years .
Only time will tell if this tax will work or even if it comes in , what for sure talking to people on the ground is one way or another the Greek business that relies on income from out of charter season boats will a earn a lot less then in years gone by .
Just out of the small amount of boats we wintering out with this year four out of the nine boats that was going to Greece are now plainning to go else where , and out of the five going which where plainning to spend a few years in Greece now plain to only spend a short time then head for Turkey or come back West .

 

[macd]

hahser: I can't give you chapter and verse on this, but believe that quite apart from any laws on deception and tax avoidance, it's unlawful to have two registrations on the same craft. But there isn't actually any point so far as insurance is concerned: providing you give full and accurate information to your insurer, your cover will be unimpaired. Will they even want to see your registration papers? I doubt it.

If you do follow your original plan, might I suggest that something like "Dream of Duplicity" might be a more apposite new name?

Merry Christmas and fair winds for 2019, to you and all.

Happy Christmas. Is there something ironic about a poster branding the Greek tax system corrupt while at the same time trying out a scheme to deliberately submit false information to the UK Government in order to illegally evade tax?

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