Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[Garold]

Depending on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations our plan for 2019 is roughly to collect our boat from Cleopatra at Preveza (sometime in May) and make our way slowly to Croatia. We planned to stay at least a couple of months in Croatia but preferably the whole season if we can stomach the cost of moorings for the whole season. Then for the following winter 2019/2020 we may return to Cleopatra or find a boatyard in Croatia.

But reading this thread has made me realise something else.

If we want to stay flexible it will work out expensive with the new cruising taxes. Though the annual fees are the best way to go, paying the annual fee for both countries would be expensive, but paying monthly/quarterly as and when will be expensive too.

And since I’m not sure where we will stay for the next winter I’m not sure where we will most benefit from paying annually.

So on top of the other issues raised, it looks like cruising Greece and Croatia with a flexible plan is now more awkward and very expensive.

And then there’s this thing about the cruising taxes now working on a rolling basis ie if you pay for the annual, I’m not sure that it is for the next year or only up to the fixed annual renewal dates.

If we were staying in Greece for the season I’d just pay the annual tax at the beginning of each tax/ cruising year. But now it’s more complicated.

Garold

 

[alexsailor]

Croatia sailing:

 

[sailaboutvic]

Croatia sailing:

View attachment 75000

I see your once again showing your love for Croatia
Hope you had a good xmas

 

[alexsailor]

At the moment: sailing in Croatia (tomorrow island Rab).

 

[sailaboutvic]

At the moment: sailing in Croatia (tomorrow island Rab).

Luck you , boat in Tunisia we in Holland till sunday then off to the UK for two weeks then back to Tunisa to start on winter jobs .
Hope to leave Tunisa end of March .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Well is there any news ,or has it gone away again ?

 

[BurnitBlue]

The last info was that yacht owners must pay the appropriate "tax" on or by April 2nd 2019. You already know how much to pay, they will tell you where and how to pay it when they have worked out how to do it. Basically all they need to do is tell yacht owners to pay by bank to a gironumber or whatever system is used in Greece.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Well is there any news ,or has it gone away again ?

I wish..
The CA has heard absolutely nothing from our contact since before Christmas.

As things stand at the moment - ie as we have not been told anything else - on the 2nd of April every single yacht in the water, and possibly out of the water and without having formally put their vessel "Out of Us" by handing in documents to the Port Police, will be liable to pay the tax. Payments must be made by the 10th April. Failure to pay means a statutory fine of 10 x the monthly fee. ie a 13.meter yacht will be fined €1040.

The law allows no discretion.

So that's the position with only 2 months to go.

A preliminary investigation with the EU complaints section, link below if you are interested -
https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/index.html

We are not certain what legislation we should complain under, but we have found a section that would describe the exact situation, contained within the Accession treaty of Greece to the EU - under the Copenhagen Protocol.
Viz:

• the process by which laws are prepared, approved and enforced is transparent, efficient, and fair. Laws must be clear, publicised, stable, fair, and protect fundamental rights.

This exactly characterises the situation in which we now find ourselves. All of the above!

Currently this is being reviewed by this department, where we hope that they will advise us.

At the moment - there seems to be little movement or help from any of the other European sailing associations - they just don't seem to to be able to do it, but I am hoping from recent contact that they might just get going.

RTBoss - just join the CA and you would know that already!

 

[Chris_Robb]

The last info was that yacht owners must pay the appropriate "tax" on or by April 2nd 2019. You already know how much to pay, they will tell you where and how to pay it when they have worked out how to do it. Basically all they need to do is tell yacht owners to pay by bank to a gironumber or whatever system is used in Greece.

Actually its not so straight forward.
There is a registration system - not the dekpa - but that will be part no doubt - but what part... This does not yet exist.
Yes payment will be by an international payment system...... put who to pay and what prof will you need?

And finally

We dont yet know who has to pay. We do know the law says - any boat that is not "Out of Use" formally. That currently means EVERY boat in Greece. This means both in and out of the water., Currently we have been told by the ministry in writing, that you cannot be in the water. But the Greek Marina Association says thats not correct....

Effing mess.

The biggest problem, is that only the Members of this forum and the Cruising Association are probably the only people that know. what a joke...

 

[jordanbasset]

I suspect many who are late getting back to Greece will just start from scratch, tear up their old Dekpa, and say they have just arrived.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I suspect many who are late getting back to Greece will just start from scratch, tear up their old Dekpa, and say they have just arrived.

But you should not have to resort to subterfuge. This is Europe for Gods sake...... perhaps that explains it.

 

[macd]

Basically all they need to do is tell yacht owners to pay by bank to a gironumber or whatever system is used in Greece.

Meanwhile, in the read world, "telling yacht owners" is not so simple. This is one of the points of contention under the Copenhagen Protocol. The Greek authorities have historically shown themselves incompetent or indifferent to pro-actively telling yacht owners anything (at least so far as non-Greeks are concerned). Whilst most of us reading this thread will be familiar with the new law/tax, there are many who are not since there's been no attempt to communicate with them. It's simply not sufficient to put out that information, even to the limited extent that they have, in a language and alphabet thousands of affected boatowners don't understand.

It's likely, perhaps, that you would know much less about the tax had the CA (through Chris) not had the good grace to place their information on here.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Meanwhile, in the read world, "telling yacht owners" is not so simple. This is one of the points of contention under the Copenhagen Protocol. The Greek authorities have historically shown themselves incompetent or indifferent to pro-actively telling yacht owners anything (at least so far as non-Greeks are concerned). Whilst most of us reading this thread will be familiar with the new law/tax, there are many who are not since there's been no attempt to communicate with them. It's simply not sufficient to put out that information, even to the limited extent that they have, in a language and alphabet thousands of affected boatowners don't understand.

It's likely, perhaps, that you would know much less about the tax had the CA (through Chris) not had the good grace to place their information on here.

Agreed, but it is their law and their language. It is quite legal, just as it is for UK to publish a new law notice in English and ignore Greek and the 256 languages of PNG. The Greeks even have the further incentive to fine for late payment at (according to CA) 10 times the monthly fee. Win-Win for Greece if they get away with it. How can any country advise of impending legislation. Via the embassy, through the boatyards and marinas, newspapers? Or as usual, via the point of entry. Why should any country translate their laws into another language which is open to misinterpretation. Look at the legal English legal definition of the word "Money". Imagine that in 27 different languages. I have no idea how it is done, or how they will spread the word. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" to close the loophole in Uk. No idea how the Greeks will do it so please don't blame me.

Edit: perhaps Chris should ask the poster bedouin to join this thread as I think he is an expert in laymans interpretations of the law.

 

[Davy_S]

I wonder if there will be a discount for cash with no receipt

 

[BurnitBlue]

Who, Why, and When; is a big problem as macd and Chris writes. Perhaps the answer is for the CA to pester the department that will check on yachts and enforce the lack of a receipt with fines etc. The Coast Guard, Harbour masters, Port Police, etc. At some point they will know for sure or they will not be able to collect fees and fine late payers. No doubt the CA has already been on to them and got nowhere yet. I have been sailing in Greece long enough to know that any enforcement agency may not get going until long after April 2nd but still be able to collect fines. Interpretation by different departments in different locations will provide lots of amusement and anguish for those yacht owners still in Greece. This coupled with Brexit crash-out, possible 90 days in 180 has focussed my future to be en-route to somewhere else. Oh what a pity.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I wonder if there will be a discount for cash with no receipt

Sweden where I live is almost a cashless society. Even have to tap the public toilet door with a credit card for a wee. Receipts via Emails are sent if requested.

 

[macd]

No idea how the Greeks will do it so please don't blame me.

Not blaming you in the slightest, BurnitBlue, and you're right in citing the difficulties involved. But when the Greek government's own port police have no idea what's going to happen 70 days hence, it's a bit rich to expect us to.

It's even more absurd to expect people to confirm to a requirement which was not in place, when they were last in the country several months earlier and the only means of conforming is to travel to Greece specifically to meet it. Perhaps someone is confusing freedom of movement with compulsion of movement?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Meanwhile, in the read world, "telling yacht owners" is not so simple. This is one of the points of contention under the Copenhagen Protocol. The Greek authorities have historically shown themselves incompetent or indifferent to pro-actively telling yacht owners anything (at least so far as non-Greeks are concerned). Whilst most of us reading this thread will be familiar with the new law/tax, there are many who are not since there's been no attempt to communicate with them. It's simply not sufficient to put out that information, even to the limited extent that they have, in a language and alphabet thousands of affected boatowners don't understand.

It's likely, perhaps, that you would know much less about the tax had the CA (through Chris) not had the good grace to place their information on here.

And thanks you Macd for introducing me to the Copenhagen Protocol. I am not sure where we would be going without it.

 

[Davy_S]

Sweden where I live is almost a cashless society. Even have to tap the public toilet door with a credit card for a wee. Receipts via Emails are sent if requested.

That's quite sad (to me), I am back in the uk now, having lived in Greece for years, when i go back for a holiday and book accommodation, it is still, hello Mr David, you bring cash and pay when you get here, i give you discount! ....Yes Please

 

[Chris_Robb]

Not blaming you in the slightest, BurnitBlue, and you're right in citing the difficulties involved. But when the Greek government's own port police have no idea what's going to happen 70 days hence, it's a bit rich to expect us to.

It's even more absurd to expect people to confirm to a requirement which was not in place, when they were last in the country several months earlier and the only means of conforming is to travel to Greece specifically to meet it. Perhaps someone is confusing freedom of movement with compulsion of movement?

Actually, most wont even know about is so wont be doing a special journey. I am going out on April 1st for a weeks work, and although my yacht is out of use formally at the moment, I may well investigate just getting my DEKPA restamped and testing the PP on whether I need to pay the tax if sitting on the hard with a vaild DEKPA and no Tax paid - until that is I launch at the end of May - as of course every one else will do and want to do at the same time - to avoid wasting the monthly tax "time".

He ho