Seven Spades
Well-known member
You should be able to transit greek waters un the "innocent passage" rules if you do not stop.
Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA
- Thread starter Chris_Robb
- Start date
You should be able to transit greek waters un the "innocent passage" rules if you do not stop.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
The problem with Croatia is there very good with tracking people who have ISA , both talks I given on Croatia we have had people who have been fined because they didn't turn off there AIS and as you said stopped before checking in ,
the advise I keep trying to get over to people TURN OFF YOUR AIS . At less to you check in .
it a well known thing that you have to go to the first port and check in and if you not going to then don't hold up a big sign saying Hey I am here .
We don't transmit and I hold my hands up and say we have in the pass left Croatia , gone to Venice and returned back without checking in and out , we also gone to a more convenient port to check in with out any problem .
Looking like we might be back there next year. Now the tax is in , although who knows The Greek may have a change of heart and reduce the over 12 mts charges
.BurnitBlue
Well-known member
I wish, but as Chris Robb says, innocent passage must start from another territorial water and ending in yet another territorial water. I am pretty sure it will not apply to a passage starting from a stopped position already inside the territorial waters of the country the boat is passing through. In my case I would have to start in Italian Waters, then without stopping, enter Turkish territorial waters.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Chris can you imagine doing just that but part of the way being stop by a e CG and trying to explain your haven't got a DEKPA because your just sailing through and you have right of innocent passages , that if they even know what that mean . Some how I think you have a bit of a problem on your hand , let's face it they can't tell you if you can get the DEKPA stamp before the years up .
Just wonder come April how many will even know about the new tax
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Unless there a way of tracking where you just came from , who to say you not just came from Italy .
But you are right you can't have innocent passages if you started in that country .
You have two options as I see it if you want to stay within the law ,
A... leave before April
B... pay one month tax .
If you pay one months tax then you have the whole of April to fine a good weather window to get out of Greece .
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BurnitBlue
Well-known member
Spot on Vic. That is exactly the way I see it. Option A to launch and leave Greece before April and head to an Italian anchorage to get my breath back. I did not launch this year 2018 because of house and garden work so I do not have a Depka so must get out of Greece ASAP without hanging about. So a quick sail to Italy. Then on to Malta where I can finish jobs that need the boat to be afloat, (engine alignment for example). Then on to Gibraltar with a good weather window. Pick up my Medal for my Great Escape from the clutches of the EU. Then the Canaries and Caribbean. Job done. Another adventure bites the dust.
PS I have no desire to get a DEPKA next year as I want to keep my head below the parapet.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I don't know where you are based in Greece but after reading everything you said , I would just make sure the boat ready to go before launching , then launch and go .
Has you know if you had to anchor is some out of place anchorage for the night or to get away for bad weather , and that happen to run into April , there very little chance of being caught ,
I know some will criticism me for suggesting you break Greek law if you have to , as some are very quick to criticism others when them self break Greek law every year from buying stuff without asking for a receipt /entering back into Greece on a old DEPKA and not paying there 15€ fee /to staying longing then 6 months without reporting or registering their stay in that country and a list of other stuff , I guess there not many that don't break the law one way or another .
I wish you luck in removing your boat out of Greece without any problems
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Seven Spades
Well-known member
You said you want to get from Malta and leave the med so how does the above apply?
nickf
Member
A very big unless.
tony12345
New member
Every sympathy if you have a >12m boat and feel the need to leave but for those who are planning to stay there seem to be so many things that are unclear. e.g.
The Port Police don’t collect money so far as I know and struggle with a DEKPA every 5 years. How are they going to cope with this. Take getting a DEKPA.
Go to PP get form filled in and get paper for payment.
Go to tax office and get another piece of paper
Queue up in bank for couple of hours
Go back to PP with proof of payment.
Go back to PP a few days later and find DEKPA not ready so hang around for an hour while they sort it out.
That’s my experience anyway. I can’t believe they will get an on line system in various languages sorted that works by April but I hope I’m wrong.
DEKPA rules interpreted differently in different ports etc.
Add in Brexit on March 29th, will they understand a transition period or assume we are no longer EU citizens on March 30th?
I think it has the potential for chaos. One thing is for sure, they’ll be delighted to fine you if they catch you out.
The Port Police don’t collect money so far as I know and struggle with a DEKPA every 5 years. How are they going to cope with this. Take getting a DEKPA.
Go to PP get form filled in and get paper for payment.
Go to tax office and get another piece of paper
Queue up in bank for couple of hours
Go back to PP with proof of payment.
Go back to PP a few days later and find DEKPA not ready so hang around for an hour while they sort it out.
That’s my experience anyway. I can’t believe they will get an on line system in various languages sorted that works by April but I hope I’m wrong.
DEKPA rules interpreted differently in different ports etc.
Add in Brexit on March 29th, will they understand a transition period or assume we are no longer EU citizens on March 30th?
I think it has the potential for chaos. One thing is for sure, they’ll be delighted to fine you if they catch you out.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I sure what burnitblue means is , once he get to Malta he can finish off his job then continue out of the Med .
In case it's not known , Malta is where you can almost buy any thing for boat and have other stuff made up , I won't say it's as cheap to get stuff made up but it normally good workmanship unlike Greece where everyone a expert but in what you have to ask .
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Tony while writing this I can visualize what you just wrote and personally with years of PP experience if you add the amount of people who's going to be trying to get this all done within the first week of any month ,
I would say chaos is a bit of an understatement .
Regarding fines , so far the PP have been very good , if anything they been steering people away from getting caught out , in the little time the new DEKPA been out twices I been told ( if the last stamp is over 12 months old throw it away and buy a new one don't show it to me ) . This doesn't only apply to me many have told me the same .
Most PP are just as fed up are us with the going on regarding boats ,
This is not only a bad tax for us but also for there every day person in Greece as it won't be going into there pocket if anything it be taken out of there pocket because some will be spending less and other like myself won't be going to Greece at all .unless a way around this is found .
Can you imagine the influx of Italian in July/Aug paying 200€ plus for July and Aug when they arrive late July and only going to be in Greece till mid Aug most don't even have a DEPKA
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Tony Cross
Well-known member
Sorry for the late reply, I was hiking (for free I might add) in the stunning Cretan mountains yesterday.
I do not believe that Greek society is any more corrupt than UK society.
It is true that the various Greek government agencies are not (and have never been) properly 'joined up' so it is quite easy for professionals, who use a self assessment system, to bend and break the rules to reduce their tax burden. The rich in Greece, and there are actually quite a lot of them, use the same sort of 'tax efficient' mechanisms that the rich in the UK use.
I know that if the UK government agencies were not as well 'joined up' as they are many more UK professionals (using self assessment) would do all they could to reduce their tax burden as well. It's not that Greeks as a race are tax cheats, everyone would be a tax cheat if they could get away with it. It's certainly easier to get away with it in Greece than it is in the UK - that's the only difference.
Anyone who has had any official dealings with the Greek State already knows what a bureaucratic, top-heavy monster it is. It doesn't deliver value for money and most Greeks would agree that it's not fit for purpose. All levels of the Greek State are also burdened with a culture of favours, bribes, and nepotism - legacies of the Byzantines and Ottomans from whom many of their governmental systems are descended.
I can already hear you saying 'change the systems then', and that would be the best thing that Greece could do. However, changing an entire culture of government and public service is akin to trying to turn an oil tanker around on a sixpence. The young in Greece today, who have seen much more of the modern world than older generations and who aren't prepared to just 'work with the system', are the best hope for better governance in Greece in the future.
None of that however excuses you kicking up a storm and blaming all and sundry because Greece chooses to charge for the leisure use of her territorial waters. Given her level of debt (and the size of that debt is not entirely the fault of Greece) you should be impressed that they are doing all they can to pay that off. Of course, if you just want to soak up all the beauty that Greece has to offer whilst refusing to pay for it then you're free to leave.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA
And I can well understand your reluctance. What's interesting there is the willingness of all of us to use the weaknesses in the Greek government system when it suits us - and complain bitterly when it doesn't. It's a nine letter word beginning with H.
If I were still a liveaboard I'd be very worried if I'd declared my boat 'out of use' in the water and was still living on her. A chance visit by the Port Police is likely to lead to heavy fines, or worse - unless there is a specific provision that permits this. We all already know that where there is doubt what the Port Police claim are the rules are the only ones that matter.
And I can well understand your reluctance. What's interesting there is the willingness of all of us to use the weaknesses in the Greek government system when it suits us - and complain bitterly when it doesn't. It's a nine letter word beginning with H.
If I were still a liveaboard I'd be very worried if I'd declared my boat 'out of use' in the water and was still living on her. A chance visit by the Port Police is likely to lead to heavy fines, or worse - unless there is a specific provision that permits this. We all already know that where there is doubt what the Port Police claim are the rules are the only ones that matter.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Re: Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA - Fines on DEKPA
I also can't see how they can claim them out of use when they living on them .
I can see the Ragusa and Licata of this world getting much more busier.
Why I object strongly is because why should a non Greek pay a tax on a boat they own for visiting Greece . I would have no objection in paying a tourist tax has what happens like some where in Holland and Croatia come to that , when you stay in a hotel or camping ground or a marina , where everyone pays it , unlike this tax where only boat owners have to pay it , I don't see visitors to Greece flying in paying a tax , non the guy driving around in his RV or when your family come to visit you . I don't disagree full time liveaboard staying all the year round should pay some kind of tax because they live in Greece but the rest of us are just visitors .
As I said time and time again , if they want to put some kind of tax on boats then it should be a fair one and add it on to marina or harbour fees .
Has for@ Burnitblue , he doing just as you said , he taken his keel out of Greece , non of us have to be told that by anyone , if we don't like it then leave , it just put people back up to be told some thing that we All of us know . We not children .
I agree with you on this one Tony , I think the liveaboard are going to have to pay the yearly tax on their boats ,
I also can't see how they can claim them out of use when they living on them .
I can see the Ragusa and Licata of this world getting much more busier.
Why I object strongly is because why should a non Greek pay a tax on a boat they own for visiting Greece . I would have no objection in paying a tourist tax has what happens like some where in Holland and Croatia come to that , when you stay in a hotel or camping ground or a marina , where everyone pays it , unlike this tax where only boat owners have to pay it , I don't see visitors to Greece flying in paying a tax , non the guy driving around in his RV or when your family come to visit you . I don't disagree full time liveaboard staying all the year round should pay some kind of tax because they live in Greece but the rest of us are just visitors .
As I said time and time again , if they want to put some kind of tax on boats then it should be a fair one and add it on to marina or harbour fees .
Has for@ Burnitblue , he doing just as you said , he taken his keel out of Greece , non of us have to be told that by anyone , if we don't like it then leave , it just put people back up to be told some thing that we All of us know . We not children .
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BrianH
Active member
I know cruisers in my NE Italian marina without AIS who have been surprised that their exact course across the northern Adriatic to an Istrian port was already known about on their arrival. So turning off an AIS transmitter is no surety of a clandestine arrival in Croatia.The problem with Croatia is there very good with tracking people who have ISA , both talks I given on Croatia we have had people who have been fined because they didn't turn off there AIS and as you said stopped before checking in ,
the advise I keep trying to get over to people TURN OFF YOUR AIS . At less to you check in .
it a well known thing that you have to go to the first port and check in and if you not going to then don't hold up a big sign saying Hey I am here .
We don't transmit and I hold my hands up and say we have in the pass left Croatia , gone to Venice and returned back without checking in and out , we also gone to a more convenient port to check in with out any problem .
Looking like we might be back there next year. Now the tax is in , although who knows The Greek may have a change of heart and reduce the over 12 mts charges
That is because they have a coastal radar chain surveillance system of 40 sites, supplied by Saab that replaced an earlier US system (Metric Systems Peregrine Coastal Surveillance Radar Systems), which was effective enough with the high mountains they could be mounted on. One such was sited on the northernmost Croatian cliff peak of Savudrija that surveyed all of the northern Adriatic and tracked all vessels, even small leisure craft.
From the Saab Press Centre:
The coastal surveillance system will provide [by June 2016] real-time information from state-of-the-art radar sensors, advanced long range and thermal closed circuit television cameras plus Automatic Identification System (AIS). The sensors are deployed at strategic sites along the coastline and will be connected to several control centres in one of the most advanced maritime monitoring systems operational in Europe. The system will be operated by the Croatian Ministry of Interior Border Police. It is an extension of Croatia’s existing coastal surveillance system delivered by Saab in 2010 used by the Ministry of Maritime Affairs, Transport and Infrastructure.
The system will detect, identify, track and monitor vessels at a distance of up to 100 km, while providing operators with an accurate maritime situational picture on a 24/7 basis. The system will help the Ministry of Interior to protect its sea borders from all threats and intruders. In total, the project includes works at 40 different sites, some of them on remote islands only accessible by helicopter.
The system will detect, identify, track and monitor vessels at a distance of up to 100 km, while providing operators with an accurate maritime situational picture on a 24/7 basis. The system will help the Ministry of Interior to protect its sea borders from all threats and intruders. In total, the project includes works at 40 different sites, some of them on remote islands only accessible by helicopter.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Please . I know all about their radar system,
but you can't tell in in the height of summer months there200/ 500 target heading one way or another and they tracking everyone to see if anyone happen to stop before they check into Croatia .
Every single person I know who been fined ( 18 so far ) as been told they been track by the AIS .
It's so easy for them to track AIS as for radar it takes man power and lots off when you talking about hundreds of targets .
That's not to say some aren't caught because of radra once they have been shown on AIS
Conversation in the radra tower ,
Hey sprigo there a target coming from Italy let's track him for the next 8 hours in case he happen to stop for a swim before checking in . And there another one , oh and another one ,
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vyv_cox
Well-known member
This may have been a very unusual incident but anchored in a bay on Patmos this year a coastguard boat came in and inspected the DEKPA of every anchored boat, around six or seven in all.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Hi Vyv
Yes I know about that one , but you have to say how many times do that happen ? That's not to say it's won't happen more in time to come .
ok time to get on with some work .
Morning all
BrianH
Active member
Your patronising sarcasm is uncalled for. If you think that modern surveillance systems need eyes on radar screens then you are well out-of-date. Croatia is paranoic about illegal migration - every craft approaching their waters will be automatically monitored and any deviation flagged up for investigation with no human intervention - even during the August Italian armada invasion. Not only state-of-the-art radar systems have been implemented, there has been huge investment in patrol vessels. I have experienced some of their draconian behaviour in almost 40 years of cruising there and would not think of not complying with their regulations. You got away with it then but since the new installations of 2016 your chances will be much less.
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