Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[sailaboutvic]

And here another confusing statement .
( The new tax includes all private pleasure boats sailing under the Greek flag, professional pleasure boats, regardless of their flag, and professional tourism day cruise ships.

The tax amounts depend on the length of the vessel and the period of time spent in greek waters.)

https://marinaofagiosnikolaos.gr/blog/2018/11/24/new-greek-cruising-tax-te-pa-h/

 

[Chris_Robb]

Any idea what is a “traditional “ ship ?
I sail a wooden yacht build in 1945 and traditional looking ( lots of sticks and rags )
Who will decide if a yacht is traditional ?

One definition I heard was that vessels of historical interest like the oared galleys are exempt. That wont benefit many?

 

[Tony Cross]

And here another confusing statement .
( The new tax includes all private pleasure boats sailing under the Greek flag, professional pleasure boats, regardless of their flag, and professional tourism day cruise ships.

The tax amounts depend on the length of the vessel and the period of time spent in greek waters.)

https://marinaofagiosnikolaos.gr/blog/2018/11/24/new-greek-cruising-tax-te-pa-h/

Vic, what do you find confusing about this? It seems to me to reflect exactly the 'official' information that Chris Robb posted at post #357.

If you let me know what you think is wrong with it I'll gladly pass that on to the marina.

 

[miyagimoon]

Vic, what do you find confusing about this? It seems to me to reflect exactly the 'official' information that Chris Robb posted at post #357.

If you let me know what you think is wrong with it I'll gladly pass that on to the marina.

From reading the Marina's notice I would say that the tax is not applicable to private non professional non Greek flagged boats like mine. Our boat is a private pleasure boat but not Greek Flagged (tax not applicable), it's not a professional pleasure boat (tax not applicable) and it is not a professional day cruise ship (tax not applicable). Therefore based on the above our boat is exempt the tax!

I think that may be where Vic is coming from.

 

[Mistroma]

From reading the Marina's notice I would say that the tax is not applicable to private non professional non Greek flagged boats like mine. Our boat is a private pleasure boat but not Greek Flagged (tax not applicable), it's not a professional pleasure boat (tax not applicable) and it is not a professional day cruise ship (tax not applicable). Therefore based on the above our boat is exempt the tax!

I think that may be where Vic is coming from.

I think that you are just reading item 1 in Vic's link and it only refers to obligation to register.

The following part covers obligation to pay and does mention private pleasure vessels.

2) The obligation to pay the TE.PA.H [in accordance with Article 13 of Law 4211/2013 and the JMD of 7-11-2018 of the Ministries of Finance and Shipping & Island Policy (POL 1210/18, Government Gazette 5170/B/16-11-2018)] shall apply to private and professional pleasure boats and professional tourism day cruise ships that are greater than 7 meters in length for each month they remain within Greek territorial waters, regardless of their flag.

 

[miyagimoon]

I think that you are just reading item 1 in Vic's link and it only refers to obligation to register.

The following part covers obligation to pay and does mention private pleasure vessels.

2) The obligation to pay the TE.PA.H [in accordance with Article 13 of Law 4211/2013 and the JMD of 7-11-2018 of the Ministries of Finance and Shipping & Island Policy (POL 1210/18, Government Gazette 5170/B/16-11-2018)] shall apply to private and professional pleasure boats and professional tourism day cruise ships that are greater than 7 meters in length for each month they remain within Greek territorial waters, regardless of their flag.

Yes, I agree but the first part does not include private non Greek flagged pleasure boats, Clause 1) requires private pleasure boats sailing under the Greek flag, professional pleasure boats, regardless of their flag, and professional tourism day cruise ships to register, whereas under Clause 2) private pleasure boats regardless of flag are required to pay. Confusing, hence Vic & my statement. Not that it effects me, I'm in SE Asia.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Vic, what do you find confusing about this? It seems to me to reflect exactly the 'official' information that Chris Robb posted at post #357.

If you let me know what you think is wrong with it I'll gladly pass that on to the marina.

It may just be a miss print , but it clearly says for Greek flag boats nothing to say it apply to private non Greek flag , just as I write this I have US and Canadian boats thinking it dosent apply to them , of course we know different.

I agree further down it more clearer but if the harbour / marina is going to go through the trouble to put out info the very less their could do is get it right , but on the other hand if the Greek gov can't get it right and info people what's going on , I guess we can't expect a marina to .

 

[Sooty Dog]

If you are going to pay this tax electronically, surely they need evidence of the boats length. Does this mean that ALL boats are required to be on the electronic register. How will you provide the required evidence electronically or otherwise?

I assume that without a reference on the register there would be no way to cross-reference your payment to your boat.

I'm in the UK now and can't afford a fine. So if I want to pay by SEPA or some other system, where's the payment details and how will they know which boat I'm paying for?

 

[Mistroma]

Yes, I agree but the first part does not include private non Greek flagged pleasure boats, Clause 1) requires private pleasure boats sailing under the Greek flag, professional pleasure boats, regardless of their flag, and professional tourism day cruise ships to register, whereas under Clause 2) private pleasure boats regardless of flag are required to pay. Confusing, hence Vic & my statement. Not that it effects me, I'm in SE Asia.

I simply read it as:
1) I don't need to have an entry on the electronic register
2) I do need to pay (unfortunately ).

 

[Tony Cross]

From reading the Marina's notice I would say that the tax is not applicable to private non professional non Greek flagged boats like mine. Our boat is a private pleasure boat but not Greek Flagged (tax not applicable), it's not a professional pleasure boat (tax not applicable) and it is not a professional day cruise ship (tax not applicable). Therefore based on the above our boat is exempt the tax!

I think that may be where Vic is coming from.

It may just be a miss print , but it clearly says for Greek flag boats nothing to say it apply to private non Greek flag , just as I write this I have US and Canadian boats thinking it dosent apply to them , of course we know different.

I agree further down it more clearer but if the harbour / marina is going to go through the trouble to put out info the very less their could do is get it right , but on the other hand if the Greek gov can't get it right and info people what's going on , I guess we can't expect a marina to .

Got it. I've passed that on to the marina. Many thanks to both of you. :encouragement:

 

[Chris_Robb]

Got it. I've passed that on to the marina. Many thanks to both of you. :encouragement:

That version was unfortunately rubbish. Kalamatas was taken straight from the summary of the law and shows the correct position. if only it was true!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Got it. I've passed that on to the marina. Many thanks to both of you. :encouragement:

No problem , I just spent half an hour persuading our over sea friends that the tax will apply to everyone .

@chris Robbs , Chris I know you personally have worked very hard on the tax on behalf of the CA and thank you very much in keeping the rest of us who are not CA members updated .
This is no reflection on you or your work , but isn't it a shame that all the sailing association across Europe as well as the marinas didn't from the start show a strong objection to the tax, rather then just going alone with it,
If made a difference in Italy and stop them taxing other EU boats , it may had made a difference in Greece .
We will miss Greece in the last 28 years there not been many years we not entered part of it even if it was just passing through and only spending a month .
Add this to our own problem of Brexit , for us British sailors we could be in for a rough ride .

Most brit on a count down to March the rest of us are counting the days to the 2 April to see if it happens .

 

[Chris_Robb]

No problem , I just spent half an hour persuading our over sea friends that the tax will apply to everyone .

@chris Robbs , Chris I know you personally have worked very hard on the tax on behalf of the CA and thank you very much in keeping the rest of us who are not CA members updated .
This is no reflection on you or your work , but isn't it a shame that all the sailing association across Europe as well as the marinas didn't from the start show a strong objection to the tax, rather then just going alone with it,
If made a difference in Italy and stop them taxing other EU boats , it may had made a difference in Greece .
We will miss Greece in the last 28 years there not been many years we not entered part of it even if it was just passing through and only spending a month .
Add this to our own problem of Brexit , for us British sailors we could be in for a rough ride .

Most brit on a count down to March the rest of us are counting the days to the 2 April to see if it happens .

Vic. Had the other EU sailing organisations done anything, I am sure that the Greeks would have thought again.

All the EU associations had my detailed document as did the RYA. They all just dragged their heels and did nothing..... wasted my time there.

 

[Chris_Robb]

No problem , I just spent half an hour persuading our over sea friends that the tax will apply to everyone .

@chris Robbs , Chris I know you personally have worked very hard on the tax on behalf of the CA and thank you very much in keeping the rest of us who are not CA members updated .
This is no reflection on you or your work , but isn't it a shame that all the sailing association across Europe as well as the marinas didn't from the start show a strong objection to the tax, rather then just going alone with it,
If made a difference in Italy and stop them taxing other EU boats , it may had made a difference in Greece .
We will miss Greece in the last 28 years there not been many years we not entered part of it even if it was just passing through and only spending a month .
Add this to our own problem of Brexit , for us British sailors we could be in for a rough ride .

Most brit on a count down to March the rest of us are counting the days to the 2 April to see if it happens .

Vic. Had the other EU sailing organisations done anything, I am sure that the Greeks would have thought again.

All the EU associations had my detailed document as did the RYA. They all just dragged their heels and did nothing..... wasted my time there.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Oh well it's done now , we just got to hope it doesn't come in other wise the only time I can see any U turn is if marinas start having a real bad time because I can't see the Greek gov worried about local businesses.

 

[BurnitBlue]

One thing I find very disturbing is that to be "out of use or period of immobility" an owner must surrender the "boat registration" or "Vessel Running Permit" to the Port Authorities (where they can get lost) and show proof that the tax has been paid before the owner can get his documents back and probably be launched. That means locked in to the boatyard and vulnerable to any tax or boatyards shenanigans before escape.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Another thing, what happened to the change of the start of this tax from a fine for non-compliance to April 2nd.

Does that mean that if documents have not been handed into to Port Authorities an owner must backpay from January, February, March, April until the documents have been submitted.

I am only curious about this because no matter how much my escape fee will cost me I will be out of here ASAP after antifoul and other small jobs.

Sailboat cruising has often been described as the last freedom left for the human race to enjoy and it looks as though Greece and a few other countries are intent on removing that freedom.

What next? Mandatory installation of AIS.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Another thing, what happened to the change of the start of this tax from a fine for non-compliance to April 2nd.

Does that mean that if documents have not been handed into to Port Authorities an owner must backpay from January, February, March, April until the documents have been submitted.

I am only curious about this because no matter how much my escape fee will cost me I will be out of here ASAP after antifoul and other small jobs.

Sailboat cruising has often been described as the last freedom left for the human race to enjoy and it looks as though Greece and a few other countries are intent on removing that freedom.

What next? Mandatory installation of AIS.

The whole question of fines in the transitional period are our first major concern. We have stated that this must be clarified now.

We hope to influence the longer term by allowing out of use to be done on the registration system, but in the mean time it is essential to have a copy of your ships papers - easy with SSR. If the DEKPA is lost - a new one can be issued. You do at least have a certificate to say that you have deposited the papers - see attached.

I have been told that I get an unofficial list of answers to my questions in the next couple of days. That will not be for public consumption (by agreement) and I will answer those and provide constructive views on what should be done. Hopefully in a week we might be able to get an initial overview out but I really don't want to jump the gun here and mislead people.

 

[Mistroma]

Another thing, what happened to the change of the start of this tax from a fine for non-compliance to April 2nd.

Does that mean that if documents have not been handed into to Port Authorities an owner must backpay from January, February, March, April until the documents have been submitted.

I am only curious about this because no matter how much my escape fee will cost me I will be out of here ASAP after antifoul and other small jobs.

Sailboat cruising has often been described as the last freedom left for the human race to enjoy and it looks as though Greece and a few other countries are intent on removing that freedom.

What next? Mandatory installation of AIS.

Too late, see post #322
This morning I spoke with my friend the Master Sergeant of the Porto Rafti customs coast guard boat 510.
He said that IHO the tax will not be implemented this year as there is not a computer system set up, no paper work issued and not sufficient work force.
Another interesting thing he said was going through,is that all boat will need AIS systems installed so that they can track.

Not that I believe it.

I'm currently considering posting my documents to Greece if the yard will submit them to nearest PP and declare my boat out of use. I can't get back to Greece easily before the deadline. I'll be in Sweden and Denmark before returning to UK not long before 2nd April, then off to Greece on 16th. Many boats in the yard and others in yards next door must be in a similar situation. PP will be swamped with last minute out of use declarations, sorting out TEPAH for boats launching in April and issuing fines. Oh joy.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Too late, see post #322
This morning I spoke with my friend the Master Sergeant of the Porto Rafti customs coast guard boat 510.
He said that IHO the tax will not be implemented this year as there is not a computer system set up, no paper work issued and not sufficient work force.
Another interesting thing he said was going through,is that all boat will need AIS systems installed so that they can track.

Not that I believe it.

I'm currently considering posting my documents to Greece if the yard will submit them to nearest PP and declare my boat out of use. I can't get back to Greece easily before the deadline. I'll be in Sweden and Denmark before returning to UK not long before 2nd April, then off to Greece on 16th. Many boats in the yard and others in yards next door must be in a similar situation. PP will be swamped with last minute out of use declarations, sorting out TEPAH for boats launching in April and issuing fines. Oh joy.

He is certainly correct that at the moment the Registration system has not gone live. To collect it through Port Police using the DEKPA as the paperwork would be a possible but mad short term thing. So yes - the sensible thing would be to postpone..... but when did anything sensible come from politicians...... let alone Greek ones.

As for insisting on AIS active transponders - I must get some shares in a manufacturer quick! I cannot believe that they could do this legally.... I think I would then just leave and go to Turkey