Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[TOKOLOSHI]

I have been told that I get an unofficial list of answers to my questions in the next couple of days. That will not be for public consumption (by agreement) and I will answer those and provide constructive views on what should be done. Hopefully in a week we might be able to get an initial overview out but I really don't want to jump the gun here and mislead people.


Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...ax-update-from-the-CA/page38#4vWr3vhJ23o2wJOT.

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What are they afraid of? A Mass exit of yachts from Greek waters?

 

[sailaboutvic]

One thing I find very disturbing is that to be .

Only one thing I fine almost everything about this tax disturbing , I still can't understand how any country can tax citizens from another EU country a tax for sailing in their waters , I can understand a tax for using harbours / marinas but for sailing in theirwaters , what's next a tax for breathing their air .
Let see how people feel when every country start charging ,

You can expect Turkey now to rises their prices and Croatia to increase their cruisers permit/visit visa / and maybe be even Italy may look again at their tax they never got in .

Shame someone not thought of starting a let leave Greece Socally media page . A few thousand people jumping up and down would had done a lot more then the sailing/clubs association most of us which ever nationality we are pay money into ,
who did nothing to object , in my case the RYA who I will now be canceling my member ship .
What ever money saved from membership and Greece tax will go nicely toward next winter mooring fees

 

[macd]

I still can't understand how any country can tax citizens from another EU country a tax for sailing in their waters

If that were baldy so, Vic, it would surely be untenable. The tax could not legally be levied on vessels on "innocent passage" through Greek waters (i.e. on passages beginning and ending somewhere other than Greece). Vessels not on innocent passage (i.e. any mooring or anchoring in Greece: in other words, most cruisers) are a different matter.

 

[sailaboutvic]

It be interesting tho Mac when a boat on innocent passage on way to Turkey/Italy/ Croatia or any where else In counter bad weather and need to anchor in a bay or a yacht having a problem and need to take refuge in a anchorage or just bad crew member who just can't take the weather, non the boat that's just done a couple of over night and arrives late at night and decided to wait till morning before arriving somewhere they can check in ,
where will they stand when a PP boat turn up and fines them anchored without paying the tax .
The way it's all being applied and the way they emphasise the fines somehow I can't see these boats talking they way out of it .
And before anyone say it won't happen , just what this space .

 

[macd]

boat on innocent passage on way to Turkey/Italy/ Croatia or any where else In counter bad weather and need to anchor in a bay or a yacht having a problem and need to take refuge...where will they stand when a PP boat turn up and fines them anchored without paying the tax ... And before anyone say it won't happen , just what this space .

Quite so, Vic. In a farce not conspicuously defined by attention to detail, that (and many other issues) stand out. The circumstances you describe are known as "force majeure", and are treated in maritime law as wholly mitigating factors. Whether the authors of the new tax laws are conscious of them is another matter entirely. I'd hope that anyone who falls foul of them could count on the wholehearted support of their national sailing body, insurer (of legal cover), MP, MEP, Uncle Tom Cobley, thee, and me.

On our second G&T, so all is otherwise well. Fair winds :encouragement:

 

[alexsailor]

The easiest way is not to pay the tax. What will happen? Nothing. Just keep off the busy harbours. If you are on hook- who will bother with you?
Remember how much fuss was there regarding Croatian sojourn tax? I did not pay it last year (it would cost me over 1000 eur) and? Nothing.
Ok, you can say I got lucky but come on...
The world is going in direction that we will have to pay more and more for fat bureaucrats. But I won't.
So do not worry. Sail, enjoy and f*#k 'em!

 

[sailaboutvic]

The easiest way is not to pay the tax. What will happen? Nothing. Just keep off the busy harbours. If you are on hook- who will bother with you?
Remember how much fuss was there regarding Croatian sojourn tax? I did not pay it last year (it would cost me over 1000 eur) and? Nothing.
Ok, you can say I got lucky but come on...
The world is going in direction that we will have to pay more and more for fat bureaucrats. But I won't.
So do not worry. Sail, enjoy and f*#k 'em!

I couldn't agree more Alex , BUT yes there a but , the last two years we seen more and more PP boats checking on boats in Greece , there been quite a few under the radar charters that's been fine ,
we been in anchorages where the PP have manage to find fuel to be able to check on boats lucky for us they gone pass us and checked on other , not that it matter as all our papers was in order .
Topping that up the Greek seen to really be putting over what the fines are going to be , come to think of it we have more info on fines then we have on the whole tax thing put together,
which gets me thinking there going to be a over the top check on boats to collect fines .
Any way I getting a bit too old in the tooth for all that cat and mouse stuff , it's a lot easier for us to go else where as I sure you know I totally disagree with many here who says Greece is the only good cruising ground in the Med , we can enjoy our sailing be Greece, italy,Croatia,Turkey or any where else as long the sun comes out my friends .

 

[Tony Cross]

I couldn't agree more Alex , BUT yes there a but , the last two years we seen more and more PP boats checking on boats in Greece , there been quite a few under the radar charters that's been fine ,
we been in anchorages where the PP have manage to find fuel to be able to check on boats lucky for us they gone pass us and checked on other , not that it matter as all our papers was in order .
Topping that up the Greek seen to really be putting over what the fines are going to be , come to think of it we have more info on fines then we have on the whole tax thing put together,
which gets me thinking there going to be a over the top check on boats to collect fines .
Any way I getting a bit too old in the tooth for all that cat and mouse stuff , it's a lot easier for us to go else where as I sure you know I totally disagree with many here who says Greece is the only good cruising ground in the Med , we can enjoy our sailing be Greece, italy,Croatia,Turkey or any where else as long the sun comes out my friends .

Vic, I appreciate your point of view and your choice to leave Greece if the tax is implemented (and there is IMO still an if there). Everyone has to do what feels right and best for them. I wouldn't have wanted to pay this tax either, although I would have done so and stayed.

I do however completely reject the idea that Greece is behaving unreasonably by taxing the use of their waters. I agree that it's unpopular but I think every country has the right to tax the use of their own resources in whatever way they think is best. That said, the current fee structure is (IMO) unfair in the extreme and too expensive.

I do agree that in the longer term it's likely to drive a great many visiting boats away and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was abandoned in a year or two. As I've said before however, I don't think Greece is going to give up this tax without having tried it. Countries seem to not learn from other's mistakes any more than people do.

Those of us who have had to establish our residence here, change our healthcare, and (the most difficult) change our driving licenses, know well what a monolithic and self serving bureaucracy the Greek government is. Even the locals despair of it and they've lived with it their whole lives!

Although Chris Robb has the best handle on what the Greek government plans are, I don't get a sense that they will be collecting fines for non-payment from day one. There may well be increased checks on boats in the months following the eventual implementation and that in my view is a good thing, I think most of us have little sympathy for those living 'under the radar' or chartering illegally. Certainly the people I speak to here about the tax, both inside and outside the sailing business, are very relaxed about the whole thing. The locals do not have the same sense of approaching doom that foreign sailors do, neither do they believe that fines will be imposed unless there is a clear and deliberate attempt to avoid the tax.

'Wait and see' seems to be the general advice from the locals, so whilst I'd caution all sailors in Greece to keep themselves as aware of the implications of the tax and it's current implementation date as they are able, those who have not made a deliberate decision to leave should not panic just yet. Remember, this tax has been designed to collect taxes from Greeks who have used all sorts of ingenious ways in the past to avoid paying the luxury tax on boats here, foreign flagged boats are really just collateral damage.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Vic, I appreciate your point of view and your choice to leave Greece if the tax is implemented (and there is IMO still an if there). Everyone has to do what feels right and best for them. I wouldn't have wanted to pay this tax either, although I would have done so and stayed.

I do however completely reject the idea that Greece is behaving unreasonably by taxing the use of their waters. I agree that it's unpopular but I think every country has the right to tax the use of their own resources in whatever way they think is best. That said, the current fee structure is (IMO) unfair in the extreme and too expensive.

I do agree that in the longer term it's likely to drive a great many visiting boats away and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was abandoned in a year or two. As I've said before however, I don't think Greece is going to give up this tax without having tried it. Countries seem to not learn from other's mistakes any more than people do.

Those of us who have had to establish our residence here, change our healthcare, and (the most difficult) change our driving licenses, know well what a monolithic and self serving bureaucracy the Greek government is. Even the locals despair of it and they've lived with it their whole lives!

Although Chris Robb has the best handle on what the Greek government plans are, I don't get a sense that they will be collecting fines for non-payment from day one. There may well be increased checks on boats in the months following the eventual implementation and that in my view is a good thing, I think most of us have little sympathy for those living 'under the radar' or chartering illegally. Certainly the people I speak to here about the tax, both inside and outside the sailing business, are very relaxed about the whole thing. The locals do not have the same sense of approaching doom that foreign sailors do, neither do they believe that fines will be imposed unless there is a clear and deliberate attempt to avoid the tax.

'Wait and see' seems to be the general advice from the locals, so whilst I'd caution all sailors in Greece to keep themselves as aware of the implications of the tax and it's current implementation date as they are able, those who have not made a deliberate decision to leave should not panic just yet. Remember, this tax has been designed to collect taxes from Greeks who have used all sorts of ingenious ways in the past to avoid paying the luxury tax on boats here, foreign flagged boats are really just collateral damage.

First you and I have at times come head to head over the years on this and it nothing personally , its just we looking at it in different ways .
Your more interested in the Greek economy because you live there and that fair enough ,
for me and many cruisers and this may sound hard we not interested in Greek economy no more then any other country economy we visit .
We happy to help that economy by spending money there but it stops there .
It's the money in our pocket that important And to some it's the different between how long they can continue doing what some have worked all they life's to do . and to be honesty most Greek them self are not interested in there own country economy if they did they wouldn't had spend hundreds of years avoiding paying taxes and I sorry to say even to this very day that still at it . last year we made two very big purchases in Greece running into thousands both wanted cash , I wouldn't mind so much but the discount they offer was almost. Nothing .
I refused ended up still with getting the discount but paid by cards .


The other thing that make me cross ( no punt intended Tony ) when I read that the tax is to catch Greek owners and the rest of us are collateral damage .
That's a totally load of rubbish and I wish people will stop saying it , Greek owner under other country flag have to buy DEKPA They also like the rest of us have to show passport/insurance/reg doc there you go problem sorted , Greek owner impound his boat till the tax is paid .just like the way they can impound other EU owners when they have a problem and need help , the survey scam as it known .

And what's going to happen with Greeks big boat owners , there just move them else where where not only the marinas cheaper but there no tax .
In the end it be as it been for many years others popping up the Greek economy why the Greeks pay nothin

Ofcause ever country can put in place what ever they like and yes we all have the choice to stay and leave and in some way I sad to be pushed out but if it's the case of staying and having to cut my cruising days or cruising else where , it's no contest .
It coast me no more include the tax a lot less .
Like many I don't object to a tax but at less make it a fair one for everyone .
If I had to pay a tax for every time I moored up or took a marina berth no problem but to sail into a country water at the rate they want to change that's another thing .
Especially a country that spend hardly any money on safety
to navigate .

It be interesting to see if your harbour in Crete is still fully booked in two years time ..
You just have to look at Turkey where once you had to book year in advance now they begging people to go .
Of cause by then the damage is done.

 

[Tony Cross]

First you and I have at times come head to head over the years on this and it nothing personally , its just we looking at it in different ways .
Your more interested in the Greek economy because you live there and that fair enough ,
for me and many cruisers and this may sound hard we not interested in Greek economy no more then any other country economy we visit .
We happy to help that economy by spending money there but it stops there .
It's the money in our pocket that important And to some it's the different between how long they can continue doing what some have worked all they life's to do . and to be honesty most Greek them self are not interested in there own country economy if they did they wouldn't had spend hundreds of years avoiding paying taxes and I sorry to say even to this very day that still at it . last year we made two very big purchases in Greece running into thousands both wanted cash , I wouldn't mind so much but the discount they offer was almost. Nothing .
I refused ended up still with getting the discount but paid by cards .


The other thing that make me cross ( no punt intended Tony ) when I read that the tax is to catch Greek owners and the rest of us are collateral damage .
That's a totally load of rubbish and I wish people will stop saying it , Greek owner under other country flag have to buy DEKPA They also like the rest of us have to show passport/insurance/reg doc there you go problem sorted , Greek owner impound his boat till the tax is paid .just like the way they can impound other EU owners when they have a problem and need help , the survey scam as it known .

And what's going to happen with Greeks big boat owners , there just move them else where where not only the marinas cheaper but there no tax .
In the end it be as it been for many years others popping up the Greek economy why the Greeks pay nothin

Ofcause ever country can put in place what ever they like and yes we all have the choice to stay and leave and in some way I sad to be pushed out but if it's the case of staying and having to cut my cruising days or cruising else where , it's no contest .
It coast me no more include the tax a lot less .
Like many I don't object to a tax but at less make it a fair one for everyone .
If I had to pay a tax for every time I moored up or took a marina berth no problem but to sail into a country water at the rate they want to change that's another thing .
Especially a country that spend hardly any money on safety
to navigate .

It be interesting to see if your harbour in Crete is still fully booked in two years time ..
You just have to look at Turkey where once you had to book year in advance now they begging people to go .
Of cause by then the damage is done.

Fair enough Vic, though as you might expect I disagree with much that you have written here. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

FWIW The marina here is already fully booked for next winter.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Fair enough Vic, though as you might expect I disagree with much that you have written here. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

FWIW The marina here is already fully booked for next winter.

Hi Tony
We never going to agree regarding the tax , has I said you see it one way and I see it another way .

I no doubts Crete if fully booked for next winter , the tax isn't in yet and most are hoping it won't be in , let's wait a year or two .

Anyway it's time we took time out arguing over a little matter that not going to change my life or yours,
Surely that's something we can both agree with.

Plus we started to sound like two old women and between both of us we adding no useful input to it this thread .

 

[Tony Cross]

And here another confusing statement .
( The new tax includes all private pleasure boats sailing under the Greek flag, professional pleasure boats, regardless of their flag, and professional tourism day cruise ships.

The tax amounts depend on the length of the vessel and the period of time spent in greek waters.)

https://marinaofagiosnikolaos.gr/blog/2018/11/24/new-greek-cruising-tax-te-pa-h/

From reading the Marina's notice I would say that the tax is not applicable to private non professional non Greek flagged boats like mine. Our boat is a private pleasure boat but not Greek Flagged (tax not applicable), it's not a professional pleasure boat (tax not applicable) and it is not a professional day cruise ship (tax not applicable). Therefore based on the above our boat is exempt the tax!

I think that may be where Vic is coming from.

Got it. I've passed that on to the marina. Many thanks to both of you. :encouragement:

Thanks again for this, the marina website at https://marinaofagiosnikolaos.gr/blog/2018/11/24/new-greek-cruising-tax-te-pa-h/ has been updated.

It was simply a case of the writer not appreciating the (complex) nuances of written English. That has now been corrected.

The marina was keen to point out that the translation of the law that followed on that page was (and is) accurate. It was just that one paragraph overview that was less clear than it could have been.

:encouragement:

 

[Earl Grey]

Is there any update on this please? Seems about a month to go until possible implementation. A stressful year of possibles and unknowns between Brexit and this tax.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Is there any update on this please? Seems about a month to go until possible implementation. A stressful year of possibles and unknowns between Brexit and this tax.

Have another cup of Earl Grey and chill , stop stressing and enjoy the sailing .
I can tell you now , no one going to know anything until April comes and good chance not even then

 

[Chris_Robb]

Is there any update on this please? Seems about a month to go until possible implementation. A stressful year of possibles and unknowns between Brexit and this tax.

Right now there has been nothing forthcoming from the Greeks.

We have been promised that we will have answers in the form of a Website with FAQs - hopefully they will answer my original list of questions and suggestions.

This is being translated into English in the next couple of days (but they said that 2 weeks ago)- mean while we have a slow moving complaint with the EU commission on the lack of publicity and information surrounding this tax which goes against our rights under EU law. Note that we are not complaining about the tax itself - that would fail - but about its implementation.

Watch this space - or for an advantage with more detailed info - Join the CA!

https://www.theca.org.uk/join

 

[Chris_Robb]

Latest on the Greek Cruising Tax - TEPAI

We have just been informed via the Greek Marinas association and from a member in Kalamata that the tax will start being collected manually on the 2nd April.

Owners who are unable to attend to pay or put their Vessels out of use, must engage an Agent to carry out this task.

WHat a F$£K up.

I am hoping that my complaints to half the Greek Government may result in something.
We are still not certain that you can be out of Use in the water - although the marinas association say you can, the Min of Finance said to us you cant!

In theory there will be many many owners facing substantial fines if that is what Port Police have been instructed to do.

 

[One A.]

Is there a list of these agents? Or can it be someone acting on your behalf?

 

[comino]

I am advised by Gouvia Marina that they are expecting the on-line payment system, in English, to be operational before 2nd April.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I am advised by Gouvia Marina that they are expecting the on-line payment system, in English, to be operational before 2nd April.

There is are a lot of differing advice out there. The Greek Marinas assoc says use a Agent...... who knows.

 

[vasant]

manually by whom??
The port police??