Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA

[grumpygit]

This is my take on what is/will happen. I live in Greece, this for most of the year and we have done so for the last 10+years.
The Greek tax system is not as unfair as some make out. All sorts on tax payments here in Greece get postponed, have an armistice, deferred or the Greeks just don't pay it. If the system is not fully prepared, IMHO the tax will not be collected, end of . . .
Remember this Tax is more for taking money from the Greeks themselves that try to evade luxury tax payments. We as visitors, temporary residents or tourists are just an anomalies.
As most now know, the PP no longer collect monies, such as DEKPA, Berthing or Dues so I can not see them to be given the task of collecting this tax. Besides that they have much more important things to do, like office dwelling and watching TV.
Just chill, they won't be, out with their guns, threatening big fines or making unnecessary demands.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Announcement from Greece

https://www.aade.gr/sites/default/files/2019-03/dt_22.03.19.pdf

Click through to the second PDF.

There is still a chance that there will be a short postponement

 

[Earl Grey]

Many thanks Chris, A very interesting read although...... there appears to be a contradiction, or maybe I'm reading incorrectly?

2.17. Ε My ship is at a ship parking lot, or at my private premises (e.g. in the garden of my summer house). Is TEPAI due for that ship?

Α The TEPAI is due for all ships in Greek territorial waters, as detailed in questions 2.3. and 2.5.; therefore, any ship not in Greek territorial waters is not subject to TEPAI. It goes without saying that, as soon as the ship is in Greek territorial waters, the TEPAI shall be immediately due, as per the relevant provisions, unless exempt. For exemptions, see question 2.4.


Deffinition of Territorial waters here. No mention of hard standing.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Territorial+Waters

All seems clear then??? Not quite because section 6 implies that Out of Use status and all the handing in of papers etc can apply to in water or "on dry land outside of Port Authority jurisdiction"

As there are many thousands of boats on the hard in Greece over this winter and owners arriving throughout April, May and June to commission I think this could do with some clarification?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I also think there could be a problem when it comes to as we know it Innocent passage ,
A suggestion would be , if you plain to sail through Greek waters to say Turkey to make sure you have some kind of electronic log on board to prove you haven't stop.
I still can't see this happening in April but it does look very likely it will happen some time this year .

 

[De.windhoos]

Announcement from Greece

https://www.aade.gr/sites/default/files/2019-03/dt_22.03.19.pdf

Click through to the second PDF.

There is still a chance that there will be a short postponement

Thanks Chris.
I particularly like the part that you need to have to go to the PP and bank and back to the PP twice. Once for DEKPA/transit log and once for the tax. :ambivalence:

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thanks Chris.
I particularly like the part that you need to have to go to the PP and bank and back to the PP twice. Once for DEKPA/transit log and once for the tax. :ambivalence:

This has been the case for the last few years except on the odd place where you can pay it at the tax office cutting out the bank trip .

 

[Chris_Robb]

Many thanks Chris, A very interesting read although...... there appears to be a contradiction, or maybe I'm reading incorrectly?

2.17. Ε My ship is at a ship parking lot, or at my private premises (e.g. in the garden of my summer house). Is TEPAI due for that ship?

Α The TEPAI is due for all ships in Greek territorial waters, as detailed in questions 2.3. and 2.5.; therefore, any ship not in Greek territorial waters is not subject to TEPAI. It goes without saying that, as soon as the ship is in Greek territorial waters, the TEPAI shall be immediately due, as per the relevant provisions, unless exempt. For exemptions, see question 2.4.


Deffinition of Territorial waters here. No mention of hard standing.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Territorial+Waters

All seems clear then??? Not quite because section 6 implies that Out of Use status and all the handing in of papers etc can apply to in water or "on dry land outside of Port Authority jurisdiction"

As there are many thousands of boats on the hard in Greece over this winter and owners arriving throughout April, May and June to commission I think this could do with some clarification?

Yes. I had thought we might wing it as it is pretty clear. If out of the Greek territorial waters it must per se, be out of Use with no other actions. It will be a route we will use to try to diswade them of the ridiculous handing in of documents which will cause so much work.
But as ever will be the problem of the Greeks avoiding tax.

 

[Tony Cross]

Deffinition of Territorial waters here. No mention of hard standing.

If the boat is on land then it cannot possibly be in Greek territorial waters.

 

[vasant]

guys i dont think anyone will be controlled on the water.
You will have to present the receipt when getting your DEKPA and all together when moored somewhere and getting controlled.
In the end the fines are (typical greek) not sky high.....

 

[Tony Cross]

guys i dont think anyone will be controlled on the water.
You will have to present the receipt when getting your DEKPA and all together when moored somewhere and getting controlled.
In the end the fines are (typical greek) not sky high.....

I agree that it's very unlikely anyone will be stopped other than in a port or marina. In addition, all of the Greek people I speak to in the yachting industry are certain that fines will not be levied unless they think there has been a determined and deliberate attempt to avoid the tax.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I would like to think that's true except what we seen over the last two years there been many more PP visit to boats at anchor then I seen in all the years we sailed in Greece ,
and I been known to take risk when it comes to keeping my head down but I not sure I would at this time in Greece , we see what happen over the coming year or so before we step foot back into Greece ,

 

[grumpygit]

I agree that it's very unlikely anyone will be stopped other than in a port or marina. In addition, all of the Greek people I speak to in the yachting industry are certain that fines will not be levied unless they think there has been a determined and deliberate attempt to avoid the tax.

I tend to agree with Tony, never mind the staffing or more to the point the lack of it to do any stopping. There will in most cases be a total lack of enthusiasm from the PP too.
And where are they going to get the money for fuel for their RIB's, that's if they have one. The PP here have only had a RIB for about a year, it went in for a service and it was out of action for 6 months because they didn't have the money to pay and get it out the yard. Now it just sits in the port doing nothing because of the lack fuel.
Don't worry be happy

 

[Chris_Robb]

If the boat is on land then it cannot possibly be in Greek territorial waters.

I have thanked them for this new facility which clearly says hauling out means you are exempt - you dont even have to hand over your ships papers!

Please dont think that this will happen!

 

[Chris_Robb]

I agree that it's very unlikely anyone will be stopped other than in a port or marina. In addition, all of the Greek people I speak to in the yachting industry are certain that fines will not be levied unless they think there has been a determined and deliberate attempt to avoid the tax.

Unless you are in Kalamata

 

[vyv_cox]

I have received a mail from Leros Marina this morning. It reads as follows:

Dear Customers,
Attached you can find the information we have received concerning the cruising tax.
Leros Marina's estimation is that the above applied tax (TEPAI) will not be applied in practice as the port police offices do not have the necessary personnel to do so.
The same has happened with other similar taxes that the Greek government has tried to impose from year 2000 in yachts.
So practically our estimation is that the whole issue is just a lot of fuss and no actual change will come to the tax regime.

For Leros Marina, Evros S.A.
Constantin N Kalantzopoulos
chairman

Hoping he is correct!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Unless you are in Kalamata

Or Leros the p p was very busy visiting boats at anchor last year

 

[Chris_Robb]

I have received a mail from Leros Marina this morning. It reads as follows:

Dear Customers,
Attached you can find the information we have received concerning the cruising tax.
Leros Marina's estimation is that the above applied tax (TEPAI) will not be applied in practice as the port police offices do not have the necessary personnel to do so.
The same has happened with other similar taxes that the Greek government has tried to impose from year 2000 in yachts.
So practically our estimation is that the whole issue is just a lot of fuss and no actual change will come to the tax regime.

For Leros Marina, Evros S.A.
Constantin N Kalantzopoulos
chairman

Hoping he is correct!

Vyv - here's to hoping they are correct. I know that they have been considering a delay but I am worried that the act of Publication of the FAQ's on the tax means that they have decided to go ahead.

They will have my considered reply soon which emphasises the problems they are crating in terms of personnel to do the job....

To illustrate the point, you may remember that in the Ionian, on July 16th, the Italians turn up in vast quantities.
1. I doubt if they even know about the tax
2. They wont have a DEKPA
3. They will need to get a DEKPA and pay the tax.
4. They will queue up in Ionian ports to do this.
5. When they come to pay they will need cash and an open bank (no banking at weekend)
6. If they pay by internet it will take a minimum of 2 days to arrive by SEPA transfer.

I can see a lot of angry Italians loosing 4 days of their valuable holiday because of this.

Or scenario 2: Italians do what they usually do - go straight in to a bay - cross anchors with anyone there already - set up band on beech ........ Port Police launch arrives (if it has diesel) and detains the lot of them...... International incident happens as one infuriated Itee puts a flare into PP launch...... WW3

 

[Chris_Robb]

Or Leros the p p was very busy visiting boats at anchor last year

Vic - Nothing against visiting boats - its their job. Kalamata are fining bastards.

 

[grumpygit]

Or Leros the p p was very busy visiting boats at anchor last year

This is quite normal for the PP in Leros. It's mostly to confront the Turks that slip over without doing the paperwork.
Love the project fear though, we are getting it from all sides!!

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is quite normal for the PP in Leros. It's mostly to confront the Turks that slip over without doing the paperwork.
Love the project fear though, we are getting it from all sides!!

I think it was Vyv last year who also said he seen the same thing happen but in his case the PP visit ever boat except the Turkish boat , correct me if I am wrong Vyv