For whom the clock is running.

[truscott]

I'm no authority on this, but I don't think that's necessary for a boat that is on the hard. It's clearly 'out of use'.

I believe depositing papers does become a major issue if you want to declare a boat that is in the water 'out of use'.

@Chris_Robb of this parish will know chapter and verse on this.

I am not sure how the rules will be enforced for all the UK boats, who could be argued to have been VAT paid on Dec 31st, 2020, and thus didn't require anything special in Greece until the powers that be deemed it so, and I am sure Chris will have better info than I on that, but for a NON EU, NON VAT Paid, Foreign Flagged vessel such as ours, we MUST deposit the TL with the local Customs Office in order to 'stop the clock'. We have done this for several years now, and were in the same room when our Canadian friends had the book thrown at them for failing to do this (they were technically still within the 18 month period, but the Greek TL document has a statement on it to the effect that the TL MUST be handed in when the vessel is laid up). I would imagine that any UK flagged vessel that is deemed NON EU VAT paid, will likely be treated the same way, i.e to be deemed Out Of Use, you will need to deposit the TL with the Customs office. How this works for those who were in the EU at rollover and now have an Unlimited Transit Log, will be of much interest to me and many others I am sure.

PT

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I am not sure how the rules will be enforced for all the UK boats, who could be argued to have been VAT paid on Dec 31st, 2020, and thus didn't require anything special in Greece until the powers that be deemed it so, and I am sure Chris will have better info than I on that, but for a NON EU, NON VAT Paid, Foreign Flagged vessel such as ours, we MUST deposit the TL with the local Customs Office in order to 'stop the clock'. We have done this for several years now, and were in the same room when our Canadian friends had the book thrown at them for failing to do this (they were technically still within the 18 month period, but the Greek TL document has a statement on it to the effect that the TL MUST be handed in when the vessel is laid up). I would imagine that any UK flagged vessel that is deemed NON EU VAT paid, will likely be treated the same way, i.e to be deemed Out Of Use, you will need to deposit the TL with the Customs office. How this works for those who were in the EU at rollover and now have an Unlimited Transit Log, will be of much interest to me and many others I am sure.

PT

I suspected that this was the case , we are non EU and foreign flawed vessels.
Think I will have a name change ,might do Cassandra, no one listened to her either.??

 

[BurnitBlue]

I am so happy that I have already decided to remove my boat that is presently in Greece from the EU ASAP. As I feared, those owners who, for Covid or other reasons, cannot get down to their boat this year will face a problem of VAT by June 30th next year. Unless they are aware of this problem and have the address of an agent who can get them a TL and hand it customs to put it "out of use".

 

[sailaboutvic]

I am so happy that I have already decided to remove my boat that is presently in Greece from the EU ASAP. As I feared, those owners who, for Covid or other reasons, cannot get down to their boat this year will face a problem of VAT by June 30th next year. Unless they are aware of this problem and have the address of an agent who can get them a TL and hand it customs to put it "out of use".

I'm still of the option that other then Greece there not going to be a big different regarding UK vat paid boat ,
It wasn't very long ago here in sicily that a non EU boat run out of time and needed to leave , CG just stamped him out and basically told him to keep his head down .
I think most of us know that Greece is a pain in the ass with their paper works and I still under the impression that all this pushing going on with what boat gets what TL is causing more of a problem then not , reading on other forum Leros was playing the game now they are not .

 

[BurnitBlue]

I'm still of the option that other then Greece there not going to be a big different regarding UK vat paid boat ,
It wasn't very long ago here in sicily that a non EU boat run out of time and needed to leave , CG just stamped him out and basically told him to keep his head down .
I think most of us know that Greece is a pain in the ass with their paper works and I still under the impression that all this pushing going on with what boat gets what TL is causing more of a problem then not , reading on other forum Leros was playing the game now they are not .

I agree. Other countries in the EU do not have tourism as 25% (?) of their GDP. Extracting free money from "guests" is therefore a national business in Greece. They will continue to search for different ways to get their fingers inside the tourist wallet. They invite tourists to visit Greece to spend their money which is fine, but they have gone one step too far when they charged tourists a fee for essentially entering the country and a fixed charge for staying there with various bureaucratic schemes like DEPKA, Transit log, monthly tax called tepei I think. All time dated so they must be renewed.

Apart from that there is now a situation where a Skipper can only spend essentially 90 days in the country yet pay storage and guardianage fees for the whole year. OK all 3rd country citizens have been subject to this rule but the difference is that they started their cruising that way so there are not many of them. Right now there are literally thousands of british boats trapped inside the EU unable to escape because of Covid. Nothing is being done to help by anybody or any member state of the EU. "Please do not come down here just post us your wallet, oh by the way here is an address of an agent if you have problems with the present and future rules we will impose on you."

Don't forget a skipper may be home in his resident country but the clock on his boat is ticking away. Frankly, Vic, moving the boat out of Greece to another EU member state is simply getting out of the frying pan and into the fire. I have been trying for three years to escape but falling off ladders and Covid problems have got in the way.

Reading the above makes me appear gloomy but I am not. I am trying to get to the Caribbean and it is really a happy and interesting project. You are a wandering cruiser so I hope to see you there sometime soon. You WILL tire of the EU bureacracy very very soon.

 

[grumpygit]

I agree. Other countries in the EU do not have tourism as 25% (?) of their GDP. Extracting free money from "guests" is therefore a national business in Greece. They will continue to search for different ways to get their fingers inside the tourist wallet. They invite tourists to visit Greece to spend their money which is fine, but they have gone one step too far when they charged tourists a fee for essentially entering the country and a fixed charge for staying there with various bureaucratic schemes like DEPKA, Transit log, monthly tax called tepei I think. All time dated so they must be renewed.

Apart from that there is now a situation where a Skipper can only spend essentially 90 days in the country yet pay storage and guardianage fees for the whole year. OK all 3rd country citizens have been subject to this rule but the difference is that they started their cruising that way so there are not many of them. Right now there are literally thousands of british boats trapped inside the EU unable to escape because of Covid. Nothing is being done to help by anybody or any member state of the EU. "Please do not come down here just post us your wallet, oh by the way here is an address of an agent if you have problems with the present and future rules we will impose on you."

Don't forget a skipper may be home in his resident country but the clock on his boat is ticking away. Frankly, Vic, moving the boat out of Greece to another EU member state is simply getting out of the frying pan and into the fire. I have been trying for three years to escape but falling off ladders and Covid problems have got in the way.

Reading the above makes me appear gloomy but I am not. I am trying to get to the Caribbean and it is really a happy and interesting project. You are a wandering cruiser so I hope to see you there sometime soon. You WILL tire of the EU bureacracy very very soon.

Supposedly Greece is opening the floodgates for visitors from the 14th May (about time too imho) to all with proof of vaccination, negative tests and the correct paperwork also with the high probability of the Covid Travel Passes being used.

You are correct in saying that they are fleecing all and sundry and believe me it doesn't stop with tourists. I know the cost of aligning with Greek rules with obtaining my ten year biometric residency card along with many other issues that goes with it. But it does need to survive and tourism is a very important part of Greece's survival. At the end of the day it is their country so their choices, same as it is your choice to stay or go. I'm sure Vic will have plenty to say on that subject.

The Greek government probably do need to pull their heads from the dark orifices and take a good look around to make sound judgement for the future, which from where I'm looking doesn't to good at the moment. I do fail though to see why you would think the Caribbean is a plus over the convenience of Greece with it's present faults but as long as your happy with your project there's no argument from me.

To be a devils advocate though, I don't suppose British boats are very high in their priority in the big scheme of things. Greece has still 26 fellow EU states to encourage to these fantastic shores and sailing grounds along with all the charter businesses. Then there's all the third countries of which we are now part of, with a forecast in the media of at least half a million Russian tourists that are going to descend here over the summer, there's something to make you leave if you have ever been moored up near or worse next to a Russian flotilla.

To be hoped as this year pans out and common sense prevails that agreements will be made to easily obtain something to extend to 180days and probably there will be easing of other rules too. Remember that it's not all down to the Greeks because there is the Schengen laws to contend with which a far more less forging than the Greek rules.
My UK registered boat will be about ready to launch from mid May but until I have clear indications of how the Greeks are going to go about the TL's and anything else that may arise . . . it will say put on the dry.

 

[BurnitBlue]

The Caribbean is a plus for me because I will be able to stay there for as long as I want. 365/365. So many island states plus mainland Caribbean states give 90 days or more. Many are closer together than the Aegean islands. Trinidad to Grenada is 12 month sailing. Ask seadevil for the rest of it, he is far more eloquent than I am. Other than that the climate is better. Honestly.

Edit. Back on thread, because of the easy travel to friendly islands VAT (or whatever it is called there) can be avoided. As far as I have seen, there is not the obsession with rules about VAT and travel logs and residency etc that is common in Europe cruising.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Supposedly Greece is opening the floodgates for visitors from the 14th May (about time too imho) to all with proof of vaccination, negative tests and the correct paperwork also with the high probability of the Covid Travel Passes being used.

You are correct in saying that they are fleecing all and sundry and believe me it doesn't stop with tourists. I know the cost of aligning with Greek rules with obtaining my ten year biometric residency card along with many other issues that goes with it. But it does need to survive and tourism is a very important part of Greece's survival. At the end of the day it is their country so their choices, same as it is your choice to stay or go. I'm sure Vic will have plenty to say on that subject.

The Greek government probably do need to pull their heads from the dark orifices and take a good look around to make sound judgement for the future, which from where I'm looking doesn't to good at the moment. I do fail though to see why you would think the Caribbean is a plus over the convenience of Greece with it's present faults but as long as your happy with your project there's no argument from me.

To be a devils advocate though, I don't suppose British boats are very high in their priority in the big scheme of things. Greece has still 26 fellow EU states to encourage to these fantastic shores and sailing grounds along with all the charter businesses. Then there's all the third countries of which we are now part of, with a forecast in the media of at least half a million Russian tourists that are going to descend here over the summer, there's something to make you leave if you have ever been moored up near or worse next to a Russian flotilla.

To be hoped as this year pans out and common sense prevails that agreements will be made to easily obtain something to extend to 180days and probably there will be easing of other rules too. Remember that it's not all down to the Greeks because there is the Schengen laws to contend with which a far more less forging than the Greek rules.
My UK registered boat will be about ready to launch from mid May but until I have clear indications of how the Greeks are going to go about the TL's and anything else that may arise . . . it will say put on the dry.

Me , ??? I not saying anything , you only got to see whats going on in Greece , it speaks for it self .
By the way Grumpygit have the Greek offered you as a resident a covid jab , we both got our as non resident in sicily .

 

[grumpygit]

Me , ??? I not saying anything , you only got to see whats going on in Greece , it speaks for it self .
By the way Grumpygit have the Greek offered you as a resident a covid jab , we both got our as non resident in sicily .

Lucky you Vic, not a hope here at the moment, just waiting for the temporary AMKA numbers to come through as I explained in #19. The ridiculous thing is that they are opening up for tourists mid May and many are not going to have vaccine. It isn't boding well.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Lucky you Vic, not a hope here at the moment, just waiting for the temporary AMKA numbers to come through as I explained in #19. The ridiculous thing is that they are opening up for tourists mid May and many are not going to have vaccine. It isn't boding well.

Good morning sir
Local paper run a bit of marinas liveaboard and how income from them helped the local economy and they should be offed the jab so the hospital have offered cruisiers of certain ages group to go alone over a three days period to have the jab.
This is what happen when you in a country that's consider liveaboard a vital part of their community, as where Greece couldn't give a monkey as long as they can squeeze money from you .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I don't think its anything other than stupid beauocracy .AMKA. wanting to know my father name wanting his tax number The fact that he died 50 years ago is no help.
Can you imagine the outcry in the UK if we refused to vaccinate foreigners.
Its a beautiful country screwed by its low level of education, bribery , corruption.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I don't think its anything other than stupid beauocracy .AMKA. wanting to know my father name wanting his tax number The fact that he died 50 years ago is no help.
Can you imagine the outcry in the UK if we refused to vaccinate foreigners.
Its a beautiful country screwed by its low level of education, bribery , corruption.

I not come across a country that's not beautiful Bob and bribery and corruption is every where you just got to read the UK papers back home although Greece take the biscuit on that .
Greece just got too much tourists and boats coming out of their ears and have been milking it dry ,
Just maybe the pandemic cutting their income might just show them how important tourism is and get them thinking a bit more.

Some here just keep on about how us liveaboard mean zero regarding what we put into the local community but as I posted in 30 that's not the case ,
In 2013/14 when Italy wanted to bring in a cruising tax and thanks god a particular sailing association didn't get involved as soon as us cruisers got the TV and papers on to it and with the marinas backing them as well as the local community the Italian government drop it and only applied it to their own boats.
Marinas knew without the winter liveraboards and cruisers parking they boats the marinas would be died and the local also recognise the income their would lose.

Marinas in Greece couldn't give a F yes they made a bit of a fussy to show they where doing some thing but they know it wasn't going to make much difference as there was never going to be a big influx of boats leaving Greece .

Some people see Greece through the rose colour glass and everything fine and god help them who say any thing against Greece until it hit them ,
then there here moaning about it and how hard done by they are ,

 

[Tony Cross]

I don't think its anything other than stupid beauocracy .AMKA. wanting to know my father name wanting his tax number The fact that he died 50 years ago is no help.
Can you imagine the outcry in the UK if we refused to vaccinate foreigners.
Its a beautiful country screwed by its low level of education, bribery , corruption.

I don't know why some of you people even cruise in Greece, you seem to hate the way the country is run so much. And often without fully understanding what you're even talking about. ALL Greek documents require your father's name, some also require your mother's name. The reasoning is simple once you understand how children are traditionally named here. The first born son is named for the father's father. The first born daughter is named for the mother's mother. The second born son is named for the mother's father. The second born daughter is named for the father's mother. Not only is this traditional and respectful but it also helps to preserve ancient christian names and avoids the stupidity of people called Zara and Zac (or worse).

That of course means that in a family with a surname of (say) Kyriakis, if the grandfather is Georgios Kyriakis then his son's firstborn son will also be Georgios Kyriakis (affectionately known by the diminutive Georgaki). Since Greek families often live together at the same address it's confising having two Geogios Kyriakis at the same address - but by including the name of the father it's possible to tell them apart. That your father died 50 years ago is neither here nor there, the system here requires father's (and sometimes mother's) names to be sure they know which Georgios Kyriakis you are. If you want to be here then learn to fit in - you are a guest here and you have to change to suit the Greeks, not the other way round.

Greece has not (to my knowledge) refused to vaccinate foreigners. The need for an AMKA number (which is like the UK NI number) is because ALL health services are keyed on the AMKA number (just as they're keyed to the NI number in the UK). As I understand it the issue of temporary numbers is taking some time because they need to ensure that they are easily identifiable in the future as being vaccination-only numbers and are not able to be used to access regular Greek healthcare. As I understand it the AMKA system (which really is just a number) was never designed to have such restrictive numbers issued - that's the problem.

And don't you dare accuse Greece of bribery and corruption with the Greensill scandal rumbling away in the UK. People who live in glass houses.....

 

[sailaboutvic]

Tony i think he live in a boat not a glass house , plus it be bloody too hot in Greece to live in a any type of glass house
We also need a type on official number here in Italy to get a jab.
but unlike the Greece, here you go onto the Internet and it explain how to get one , its made up with 15 letters and numbers part of your first and last name , DOB country you was born and where you are in Italy, print it out and away you go , it took all of 30 mins

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I have to agree ,I spent 3 months in the Ionion last year , Cleopatra marina unbelievable charges for very low standard work . I got quotes for bimini, sailbag s,pray hood and cockpit cushions from what people on Facebook were saying how wonderful they were .
My guy in Porto rafti gave me a price over the phone €2000 cheaper on €4500 job Quality worker in Alimos and the dreaded Olympic marine.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I don't know why some of you people even cruise in Greece, you seem to hate the way the country is run so much. And often without fully understanding what you're even talking about. ALL Greek documents require your father's name, some also require your mother's name. The reasoning is simple once you understand how children are traditionally named here. The first born son is named for the father's father. The first born daughter is named for the mother's mother. The second born son is named for the mother's father. The second born daughter is named for the father's mother. Not only is this traditional and respectful but it also helps to preserve ancient christian names and avoids the stupidity of people called Zara and Zac (or worse).

That of course means that in a family with a surname of (say) Kyriakis, if the grandfather is Georgios Kyriakis then his son's firstborn son will also be Georgios Kyriakis (affectionately known by the diminutive Georgaki). Since Greek families often live together at the same address it's confising having two Geogios Kyriakis at the same address - but by including the name of the father it's possible to tell them apart. That your father died 50 years ago is neither here nor there, the system here requires father's (and sometimes mother's) names to be sure they know which Georgios Kyriakis you are. If you want to be here then learn to fit in - you are a guest here and you have to change to suit the Greeks, not the other way round.

Greece has not (to my knowledge) refused to vaccinate foreigners. The need for an AMKA number (which is like the UK NI number) is because ALL health services are keyed on the AMKA number (just as they're keyed to the NI number in the UK). As I understand it the issue of temporary numbers is taking some time because they need to ensure that they are easily identifiable in the future as being vaccination-only numbers and are not able to be used to access regular Greek healthcare. As I understand it the AMKA system (which really is just a number) was never designed to have such restrictive numbers issued - that's the problem.

And don't you dare accuse Greece of bribery and corruption with the Greensill scandal rumbling away in the UK. People who live in glass houses.....

Tony ,I came in 1996 stop talking silly . Theres quislings everywhere. I often talk with sailors that suffered you in Ag Nikolaos Crete .with the marina politics
Do you live on a boat ?

 

[nortada]

I don't know why some of you people even cruise in Greece, you seem to hate the way the country is run so much. And often without fully understanding what you're even talking about. ALL Greek documents require your father's name, some also require your mother's name. The reasoning is simple once you understand how children are traditionally named here. The first born son is named for the father's father. The first born daughter is named for the mother's mother. The second born son is named for the mother's father. The second born daughter is named for the father's mother. Not only is this traditional and respectful but it also helps to preserve ancient christian names and avoids the stupidity of people called Zara and Zac (or worse).

That of course means that in a family with a surname of (say) Kyriakis, if the grandfather is Georgios Kyriakis then his son's firstborn son will also be Georgios Kyriakis (affectionately known by the diminutive Georgaki). Since Greek families often live together at the same address it's confising having two Geogios Kyriakis at the same address - but by including the name of the father it's possible to tell them apart. That your father died 50 years ago is neither here nor there, the system here requires father's (and sometimes mother's) names to be sure they know which Georgios Kyriakis you are. If you want to be here then learn to fit in - you are a guest here and you have to change to suit the Greeks, not the other way round.

Greece has not (to my knowledge) refused to vaccinate foreigners. The need for an AMKA number (which is like the UK NI number) is because ALL health services are keyed on the AMKA number (just as they're keyed to the NI number in the UK). As I understand it the issue of temporary numbers is taking some time because they need to ensure that they are easily identifiable in the future as being vaccination-only numbers and are not able to be used to access regular Greek healthcare. As I understand it the AMKA system (which really is just a number) was never designed to have such restrictive numbers issued - that's the problem.

And don't you dare accuse Greece of bribery and corruption with the Greensill scandal rumbling away in the UK. People who live in glass houses.....

Very interesting. Thank you. Bit of 'When in Rome ..............' but this is Greece.

Whilst I can fully understand foreigners established in Greece and use to the Greek ways staying.

Given what we are reading here, I would be surprised if many newcomers arrive. Especially, if a war is brewing in the region.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Corruption is not rampant everywhere. Sweden is considered lily-white politically. Corruption stands out like a sore thumb in similar countries whereas people living in a corrupt country consider it normal. Take the slow roll out of the vaccinations in the EU. With a world population of seven billion people, billions of dollars are swirling around at 20 dollars a jab with three jabs needed. The UK organised plenty of contracts in a matter of weeks. The EU struggled to finalise contracts in three month. It takes longer to organise a brown envelope exchange because it must be hidden and negotiators have to wait and delay to see who will offer the bribe first.

Astra Zenica and J&J are cheap at two dollars and are offered at cost so there is no room or incentive for bribes. Phizer and Moderna cost over 20 dollars a jab. Guess which companies are actually supplying the vaccine and which companies have had their reputation trashed.

A retrospective study has just been published that says that the phizer jab is responsible for many more blood clots than Astra Zenica. The study is under review and is still being peer reviewed as we speak. Dr John Campbell spilled the beans just yesterday. He gives all the url links but cannot make comment.

In the case of political corruption it is almost impossible to prove because the measures to achieve it have been refined for years. One can only draw conclusions to explain why a country will "appear" to shoot itself in the foot. "Follow the Money" is an apt but often futile excersize.

 

[25931]

I suspected that this was the case , we are non EU and foreign flawed vessels.
Think I will have a name change ,might do Cassandra, no one listened to her either.??

 

[nortada]

Corruption is not rampant everywhere. Sweden is considered lily-white politically. Corruption stands out like a sore thumb in similar countries whereas people living in a corrupt country consider it normal. Take the slow roll out of the vaccinations in the EU. With a world population of seven billion people, billions of dollars are swirling around at 20 dollars a jab with three jabs needed. The UK organised plenty of contracts in a matter of weeks. The EU struggled to finalize contracts in three month. It takes longer to organise a brown envelope exchange because it must be hidden and negotiators have to wait and delay to see who will offer the bribe first.

Astra Zenica and J&J are cheap at two dollars and are offered at cost so there is no room or incentive for bribes. Phizer and Moderna cost over 20 dollars a jab. Guess which companies are actually supplying the vaccine and which companies have had their reputation trashed.

A retrospective study has just been published that says that the phizer jab is responsible for many more blood clots than Astra Zenica. The study is under review and is still being peer reviewed as we speak. Dr John Campbell spilled the beans just yesterday. He gives all the url links but cannot make comment.

In the case of political corruption it is almost impossible to prove because the measures to achieve it have been refined for years. One can only draw conclusions to explain why a country will "appear" to shoot itself in the foot. "Follow the Money" is an apt but often futile exercise.

Why can't he comment?