For whom the clock is running.

[Mr Cassandra]

Have you missed the point. Instead of moaning about bureaucracy have you even tried to fill in the online form for a temporary AMKA, I'm sure you can muster up enough information and imagination to fill in the boxes. Once you have lodged the request you will then get an acceptation number, from then on it should all be done by SMS. You don't have to be a Greek citizen, that's why it's called a temporary!!
Strange, If you own a motorbike as you say, no way can this be legally yours and on the road without a residency card of some description, temporary or biometric.
It's not bureaucracy, it's Greek rules. If you was in the UK in the same scenario you would be classed as no fixed abode and would face the same issues. You as many others fly knowingly under the parapet and when it catches up with you moan about it. Those that have left Greece were here because it was one of the last places in the EU that was cheap and free. Well things have changed by people you like to think as under educated and under achievers, but don't just blame the Greeks, blame the EU as they are the driving force in bureaucratic protectionism.

Brits in Gr

Have you missed the point. Instead of moaning about bureaucracy have you even tried to fill in the online form for a temporary AMKA, I'm sure you can muster up enough information and imagination to fill in the boxes. Once you have lodged the request you will then get an acceptation number, from then on it should all be done by SMS. You don't have to be a Greek citizen, that's why it's called a temporary!!
Strange, If you own a motorbike as you say, no way can this be legally yours and on the road without a residency card of some description, temporary or biometric.
It's not bureaucracy, it's Greek rules. If you was in the UK in the same scenario you would be classed as no fixed abode and would face the same issues. You as many others fly knowingly under the parapet and when it catches up with you moan about it. Those that have left Greece were here because it was one of the last places in the EU that was cheap and free. Well things have changed by people you like to think as under educated and under achievers, but don't just blame the Greeks, blame the EU as they are the driving force in bureaucratic protectionism.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/31319...tds_flgs.3:ott.AX-GYg6ueDC3fa0U&__tn__=*s*s-R

 

[grumpygit]

GG honestly it not the odd deal that we found , you obviously dont know us or thats the last thing you would had said.
Greece is no cheaper then most other country's and more expensive then others ,
you live in Greece and you want to contribute and thats fine , I dont think anyone has a problem with that,
Some cruiser /liveaboard seen to get it in their head that Greece is the only place you can cruise that has free anchorage mostly because of what they read on forum thats not true now or in times gone by
Croatia and Turkey are just if not better then Greece and both of them country once you pay what ever fees your left alone unlike Greece with it PP bothering you ever five min ,
How many time we read Italy there no where to anchor and how expensive marinas are , I agree marinas are expensive to use in the summer months , by try and use a marina in Greece in the summer Kos, lefkas,Athens or Corfu I lay money there no much different if any ,
As for anchoring tho who know us personlly here and on the cruising Scene will know all we do is anchor, if it wasn't possible to anchor freely we wouldn't had spend the last three years doing the same rounds, Sicily,West Coast of Italy, South France,Corsica, Sardinia, Malta .
In the early days all us cruiser had for info was pilot books and word of mouth from people we met , we never had up to day charts but copy's we use to share with each ours and we managed , now people have the WWW all the cruising site , forum to help them so when I read comment of people say as an example there no where safe to anchor in Italy my thoughts are they havent got the skills needed to cruise And best to find another way of life.
If you read the forum here its the same hand full of people who go on and on about Greece and the fact is some arrived in Greece and brought their boats there other have rushed across Europe not taken any time to explore other country's and others once arrived spend every season leaving their winter marina or yard then spend every summer going to the same island mostly because its the only way they feel safe .
Tell me have you moved from Poros in the last three years any further then say 100 miles ?

This is a lot of blurt with no substance, but as always your opinions are duly noted.

Here is some of my memories of charges in Croatia 2007-9

Annual Cruising Tax c. €200+. (Today €1283) Gr €1440
Per night on the outside wall of Umag €55 (Today €77+) Gr c.€8
Anchoring within towns ports and bays with mooring bouys €8 pn (Today ??) Gr Nil (except Levitha)
Fuel, I can't remember the cost but cheaper than the EU (Today c.€1.28) Gr c.€1.30

I cannot see how you endorse Croatia for one and decry Greece so vehemently. I also found your views on Italy and other cruisers abilities quite bigotry, not everybody has your superior knowledge and expertise.

 

[grumpygit]

Brits in Gr

https://m.facebook.com/groups/313197395758514/?ref=group_browse#!https://m.facebook.com/groups/313197395758514/permalink/1100458007032445/?refid=18&ref=group_browse&_ft_=qid.6952483647677059690:mf_story_key.1100458007032445:top_level_post_id.1100458007032445:tl_objid.1100458007032445:content_owner_id_new.1183764835age_id.313197395758514:src.22:story_location.6:filter.GroupStoriesByActivityEntQuery:tds_flgs.3tt.AX-GYg6ueDC3fa0U&__tn__=*s*s-R

Which specific item did you want me to find in FB pages British in Greece because the link did lead me to specific item.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

It was giving information regarding how few people being able to obtain the temp AkMA number

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is a lot of blurt with no substance, but as always your opinions are duly noted.

Here is some of my memories of charges in Croatia 2007-9

Annual Cruising Tax c. €200+. (Today €1283) Gr €1440
Per night on the outside wall of Umag €55 (Today €77+) Gr c.€8
Anchoring within towns ports and bays with mooring bouys €8 pn (Today ??) Gr Nil (except Levitha)
Fuel, I can't remember the cost but cheaper than the EU (Today c.€1.28) Gr c.€1.30

I cannot see how you endorse Croatia for one and decry Greece so vehemently. I also found your views on Italy and other cruisers abilities quite bigotry, not everybody has your superior knowledge and expertise.

GG I not sure if your so bias that your blind to what your writing or just one of these guys who just like to argue .

A boat up to 13 mts last years would had to pay €1248 for a year in Greece where in Croatia it would had been 3360HRK , do your own conversion.

Then come back and tell me there no substance to my posting .

There a big different from people who just want to doss about on a boat and them then who want to cruise looking for interesting places to visit ,
Most cruiser are not looking for some free wall where we can sit for ever and when we can't find one moan the cost of mooring , we happy to live on our hook.

I couldn't tell you what the cost of harbours are in Croatia and if you read my pilot guide for cruiser writing some years back for Croatia you will see , its made very clear that if you looking to moor in marinas or on to town walls Croaita is going to be costly.

On the other hand its has one of the best cruising ground in the whole of the med .
Unlike Greece which going from one island to the next and think you arrived at the same island with its white and blue houses and a church ,
Croatia is full of history, not broken pots and bits of stone , hole in the ground filled with local rubbish which once was some kind of bath or so the broken sign by it says .
Unlike Greece the sea and harbour come to that are clear not floating plastic bottles and bags, although it does seen Greece have at last started to get its act together regarding rubbish .

As for Italy, you might like to tell me where in Greece you can get a berth for the winter for 7 months for €1100 in a fully functional marina for an 13 mts boat .

You given details going back to some years in Croatia and Italy, which even by my reckoning of them times dont match up with mine .

But pulling that to one side what people are interested in is what cost our to day not 5/10 or 15 years ago .

Some here think I have some magical inside info to find these places and cruiser so cheaply then they can , there no magic to it ,

Maybe the price list below will convince you

 

[sailaboutvic]

we cruiser the same five countries in the last three year and other then two night the cost of €15 mooring fee in sardina last year we paid not a cent in mooting fees .
Because of two occasions when we picked up one a net and another time a sack we had to get hauled out twice once in the SOF the other sardinia both time the haul out was cheaper then any wherevwe have been hauled out in Greece .

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I don't believe that the TI law says anywhere how long you have to be out of EU waters. In theory you could exit EU waters and turn around and come straight back. The issue then becomes one of proving you really did leave. I wouldn't want to risk an AIS track so as you say, the best advice is to spend one night in a marina in a non-EU country and use the receipt as proof of having left.

In addition there is I believe a discretionary additional 6 months that can be added to the boat's 18 month stay. The criteria for adding this extra time varies from country to country, it's my understanding that Greece will add it pretty much for the asking - though having a good reason always helps.

This is exactly what I used to do with my boat when it was on temporary admission to Croatia. There is no time period stipulated for how long you have to "leave" for.

The customs rules do not provide for a “minimum period” during which the goods must remain outside of the customs territory of the EU.

Chapter and verse here (for the OP): Yachts and VAT | Foresight consultancy

I used to check-out in the morning (which officially ends your TI period), sail out to the 12 Nm mark, turn round and check back in again on the same day (which starts a new 18 month period.).

The customs officials are used to this as there are many yachts which do it regularly.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is exactly what I used to do with my boat when it was on temporary admission to Croatia. There is no time period stipulated for how long you have to "leave" for.



Chapter and verse here (for the OP): Yachts and VAT | Foresight consultancy

I used to check-out in the morning (which officially ends your TI period), sail out to the 12 Nm mark, turn round and check back in again on the same day (which starts a new 18 month period.).

The customs officials are used to this as there are many yachts which do it regularly.

Your quite right I known people who sail from Greece in the morning to Turkey and sail back in the afternoon

 

[BurnitBlue]

This is exactly what I used to do with my boat when it was on temporary admission to Croatia. There is no time period stipulated for how long you have to "leave" for.



Chapter and verse here (for the OP): Yachts and VAT | Foresight consultancy

I used to check-out in the morning (which officially ends your TI period), sail out to the 12 Nm mark, turn round and check back in again on the same day (which starts a new 18 month period.).

The customs officials are used to this as there are many yachts which do it regularly.

Thanks for that link to "Yachts and VAT". I find it difficult to post links so I wonder if someone will add it the post "Facts about live aboard you may want to add to" thats the name of the thread not a specific request to you, although I reckon it would be useful if you did. (Do it that is). Digging myself a grammatical hole here. Sorry.

 

[grumpygit]

GG I not sure if your so bias that your blind to what your writing or just one of these guys who just like to argue .

A boat up to 13 mts last years would had to pay €1248 for a year in Greece where in Croatia it would had been 3360HRK , do your own conversion.

Then come back and tell me there no substance to my posting .

There a big different from people who just want to doss about on a boat and them then who want to cruise looking for interesting places to visit ,
Most cruiser are not looking for some free wall where we can sit for ever and when we can't find one moan the cost of mooring , we happy to live on our hook.

I couldn't tell you what the cost of harbours are in Croatia and if you read my pilot guide for cruiser writing some years back for Croatia you will see , its made very clear that if you looking to moor in marinas or on to town walls Croaita is going to be costly.

On the other hand its has one of the best cruising ground in the whole of the med .
Unlike Greece which going from one island to the next and think you arrived at the same island with its white and blue houses and a church ,
Croatia is full of history, not broken pots and bits of stone , hole in the ground filled with local rubbish which once was some kind of bath or so the broken sign by it says .
Unlike Greece the sea and harbour come to that are clear not floating plastic bottles and bags, although it does seen Greece have at last started to get its act together regarding rubbish .

As for Italy, you might like to tell me where in Greece you can get a berth for the winter for 7 months for €1100 in a fully functional marina for an 13 mts boat .

You given details going back to some years in Croatia and Italy, which even by my reckoning of them times dont match up with mine .

But pulling that to one side what people are interested in is what cost our to day not 5/10 or 15 years ago .

Some here think I have some magical inside info to find these places and cruiser so cheaply then they can , there no magic to it ,

Maybe the price list below will convince you

I didn't realise I was arguing but you do make a lot of noise with nothing or very little to back up your verse with costs, I did attempt to make the effort
I was 15metres so that was my basis. I did not have a clue on present day cruising tax for Croatia so rightly or wrongly I took my information from . . . . .

Sailing in Croatia: Sojourn Tax for Boat Owners to Increase in 2018.

The last time I had a yard contract in Italy it was c.€6k p.a. and my last yard contract in Greece was €8 +vat per day c. €300 p.m.

And the clock is still running

 

[sailaboutvic]

I didn't realise I was arguing but you do make a lot of noise with nothing or very little to back up your verse with costs, I did attempt to make the effort
I was 15metres so that was my basis. I did not have a clue on present day cruising tax for Croatia so rightly or wrongly I took my information from . . . . .

Sailing in Croatia: Sojourn Tax for Boat Owners to Increase in 2018.

The last time I had a yard contract in Italy it was c.€6k p.a. and my last yard contract in Greece was €8 +vat per day c. €300 p.m.

And the clock is still running

Well then if you haven't a clue what going on why even comment , again your given old info dated back some years which is no help to anyone . That link is not only 3 year old but since then there been a 20% reduction.
As for what you was paying mooring fees in Italy , I can only say they must had seen you coming .

 

[Chris_Robb]

I'm no authority on this, but I don't think that's necessary for a boat that is on the hard. It's clearly 'out of use'.

I believe depositing papers does become a major issue if you want to declare a boat that is in the water 'out of use'.

@Chris_Robb of this parish will know chapter and verse on this.

Tony, there is a difference between the rules on the E-Tepai where the boat is automatically out of use if hauled out, for the tax, and if in the water, papers have to be deposited with Port Police. Confusion exists as some PP dont want them - then a change of presonel gets you into trouble!

With the Limited Transit log, you physically are required to hand your papers in to Customs where on the hards or in the water. This stops the clock. When you want to sail again - buy your Tax and present receipt for said tax and reclaim your papers.
To start the clock in Greece again - just sail 12 miles out - record it on your chart plotter by photo, and return. I have clarity on this with a letter from Customs having asked this question - they just want you there!

 

[Chris_Robb]

I am so happy that I have already decided to remove my boat that is presently in Greece from the EU ASAP. As I feared, those owners who, for Covid or other reasons, cannot get down to their boat this year will face a problem of VAT by June 30th next year. Unless they are aware of this problem and have the address of an agent who can get them a TL and hand it customs to put it "out of use".

You are panicking. There is no co ertion to get a TL at the moment if you are not present. Only when you start sailing. The issue of UK Vat recognition is currently being dealt with by the EU Commission - and may take a few weeks yet - I do not get feed back whilst the stages of the complaint are running.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Tony, there is a difference between the rules on the E-Tepai where the boat is automatically out of use if hauled out, for the tax, and if in the water, papers have to be deposited with Port Police. Confusion exists as some PP dont want them - then a change of presonel gets you into trouble!

With the Limited Transit log, you physically are required to hand your papers in to Customs where on the hards or in the water. This stops the clock. When you want to sail again - buy your Tax and present receipt for said tax and reclaim your papers.
To start the clock in Greece again - just sail 12 miles out - record it on your chart plotter by photo, and return. I have clarity on this with a letter from Customs having asked this question - they just want you there!

I am definitely changing my user name to Cassandra.

 

[BurnitBlue]

You are panicking. There is no co ertion to get a TL at the moment if you are not present. Only when you start sailing. The issue of UK Vat recognition is currently being dealt with by the EU Commission - and may take a few weeks yet - I do not get feed back whilst the stages of the complaint are running.

Thanks a million Chris. Yes I am reacting to all the "news" with panick. This is because of the complete absence of clarity. Thanks for your work trying to get it all up front and understsndable. Like probably everyone sailing his boat in the EU as a Brit, all we need is clear simple instructions what we must do to continue doing this. People are guessing and making decisions now on rumours and dodgy news about what will happen in the near future. My guess up to now is that if I am absent from the EU because of Covid, the Greek customs on EU rules will impound my boat after 18 month and only release it when I have paid VAT on their valuation.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Dear Cassandra, (Mr)
Please tell me if the Greek Customs will charge VAT on my boat built in UK before 1985 by British craftesmen to a spec so much higher than the normal French and German rubbish they are used to dealing with that they are competant to arrive at a fair assesment. I am afraid they will be so much in awe of the carpentry and excellent hull design that I will be overcharged. Please put my peasant mind to rest.

Do you accept the same offerings as your wife? I can manage two boiled frogs and a spider.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Probably they will feel sorry for you having to live on a derelict ,If you can find a dated BOS prior to 1985 I would not worry

 

[BurnitBlue]

Probably they will feel sorry for you having to live on a derelict ,If you can find a dated BOS prior to 1985 I would not worry

Dear Cassandra (Mr)
You misunderstand me. I did not ask if you would be worried, i asked if I should be worried. Also, forgive my impertinance , but you "probably" think they will feel sorry. Don't you know for sure? I am so disapointed, you are just like everyone else. Nothing definite

 

[sailaboutvic]

Dear Cassandra (Mr)
You misunderstand me. I did not ask if you would be worried, i asked if I should be worried. Also, forgive my impertinance , but you "probably" think they will feel sorry. Don't you know for sure? I am so disapointed, you are just like everyone else. Nothing definite

I have the answer to all your problem .
You sell it to me for €5 and all your problems gone .

 

[BurnitBlue]

I have the answer to all your problem .
You sell it to me for €5 and all your problems gone .

I have already filled in my Swedish tax return for all incomes. You are one day late. That 5 euro would put me on the wrong end of a firing squad. They don't take prisoners. Sorry.