Colregs - Motor Sailing Cone

[ggt9]

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Except "the engine is in Neutral" can come out .... as that is already covered by the colregs in definition of propulsion ..

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This is actually the really tricky aspect of the whole thing. If you put your engine in neutral while you go and find the cone, you'll arguably be sailing by the time you get to the bow and no longer need the cone. Once you've put it away, sat down in the cockpit and put it in gear again, you're motoring so you need to get the cone out again.

It's a wonder more yachts aren't lost every year while their skippers run in circles wrestling with this intractable element of the col regs. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

To be honest, I don't think 'engine in neutral' really cuts it. My engine is frequently in neutral while I'm coming alongside, fishing, generally faffing about or giving way to another boat... but I don't give up my responsibilities as a power-driven vessel nor hoist 'not under command'.

I can quite accept that you can be sailing with an engine on to charge batteries or just in case it's needed... and I'm quite happy to accept your judgement that you are sailing and not motoring and act accordingly.

What would be reasonable though is that if you do decide to use your engine to act as a power boat, that you make it clear that you're doing so by displaying the appropriate shape or lights.

I'll probably still treat you as a sailing boat just in case but at least it shows you care /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[fisherman]

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[

Many are welded up there

They won't get a MCA cert if they are.

and of course there are the rod tripper boats that arent entitled to them in the first place - an argument that could be applied to potters too!

Why? I can't manoeuvre freely when hauling or shooting gear.



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[wotayottie]

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Encounters with others at sea should not be a test of how big or powerful you are, it should be a chance for a gentlemanly nod acknowledging the presence of the others and doing your best not to make the other captains life difficult ... if that means giving way when you would normally stand on then so be it ...

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That is not the way colregs are intended to work. They are there to give predictability and there have been any number of accidents caused by the stand on vessel giving way at the same time as the give way vessel did so

 

[Sans Bateau]

So what you are suggesting is that, and to use the example you gave, that rules written into international maritime law should be changed so that a ship unable to keep a proper look out because it is overloaded with containers should be avoided so that it can maintain its speed and course for commercial gain? To quote stevecronin, "bringing more crap in from China".

MMM maybe you'd like the highway code changed to allow 40ft arctics on the pavement if it suits them, irrespective if someone is walking on it!

 

[fireball]

Yes .. I know that's what the colregs are there for ...

but equally you can avoid the colregs ever coming in to play if early action is taken ... a little mutual respect is all that is needed (and in most cases given!)

 

[aknight]

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"A vessel having one or more sails raised shall be deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to be a vessel under sail, notwithstanding that it may be mechanically propelled, unless it displays the appropriate mark signifying that it is proceeding under engine."

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So which tack are you on when you're steaming at 6 knots with the mains'l flapping? And do you give way to a racing boat with a spinnaker wrapped around the forestay, drifting helplessly but not displaying the correct daymark? And another thing, where does that leave a trawler steaming back to port with his fishing marks and steadying mizzen up?

I vote for leaving the ColRegs as they are, and for encouraging skippers to try and remember some of them. I find them quite complicated enough as they are, thankyou.

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"(1) Save as provided in sub-rule (2) below, a vessel having one or more sails raised shall be deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to be a vessel under sail, notwithstanding that it may be mechanically propelled, unless it displays the appropriate mark signifying that it is proceeding under engine.

(2) Sub-rule (1) shall not apply to vessels engaged in fishing.

(3) Rule 12(a)(iii) shall apply if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on her port or starboard side."

Notes: No special rules for racers.

 

[mel80]

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The issue of lookout was my experience on several occasions. It surprised me at the time, and it seems to me that its an issue yotties arent well aware of. They seem to make the assumption that because they can see a big ship, the latter can see them. Yet on some designs of big ship they cannot see less than half a mile in front because of the bow. Combine that with poor radar refloectivity and bad weather and you have a recipe for disaster a la Ouzo (and many others)

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Again, why should that be someone elses problem? The rather obvious solution would be for them to post a lookout in the bows!

The Ouzo incident was caused by one vessel being unable to see the other. The Colregs rely on both vessels knowing that the other is there, and responding appropriately (maintaining course and speed or changing course and speed). Changing the priorities wouldn't alter this, it would just cause collisions for different reasons.

At the end of the day, there is no way of avoiding the neccessity of an effective lookout. If you can't see other vessels in time, then you reduce speed. It really should be that simple, in my opinion it is commercial pressures rather than the steering rules that are most likely to cause problems (though it must be said that the infrequency of collisions suggests that the problem is largely non-existant).

 

[wotayottie]

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So what you are suggesting is that, and to use the example you gave, that rules written into international maritime law should be changed so that a ship unable to keep a proper look out because it is overloaded with containers should be avoided so that it can maintain its speed and course for commercial gain?

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Why not? Whats more important - the cheap import of the food and manufactured goods that keep us going, or your convenience on a weekend channel crossing?

And to use your highway code analogy, when crossing the road on foot, do you not give way to artics? I do.

 

[fireball]

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And to use your highway code analogy, when crossing the road on foot, do you not give way to artics? I do.


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and if you're cycling along the road do you expect to have to jump off every time an artic goes past?

 

[mel80]

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Why not? Whats more important - the cheap import of the food and manufactured goods that keep us going, or your convenience on a weekend channel crossing?

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It isn't about convenience, it's about preventing collisions at sea and associated loss of life. To my mind that is fairly important.

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And to use your highway code analogy, when crossing the road on foot, do you not give way to artics? I do.

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Not mine, but to continue the analogy... At a pedestrian crossing then, yes, I would expect the artic to give way. I would certainly not support the suggestion that I should give way at the crossing simply because the artic driver wants to do 100mph and can't be expected to stop when he sees the red light. For the crossing to work, I have to know that he is there and he has to know that I am there. When that happens the inconvenience for either party is negligable; the same is true at sea.

 

[Oldhand]

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Still involves the hassle of putting something up and, in this case, it would be hidden by the sails from many angles.

I saw a yacht a while ago where the motoring cone was permanently on a halyard near the mast, such that it would be simple to merely raise or lower it, rather than go down below searching for it in a locker, tieing it to the deck, loosing a halyard, attaching a halyard, then pulling it up.

At the time I thought that can go on the winter jobs list. In fact, if it could be fed back to the cockpit.....

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It's the transition between motoring and sailing that has always worried me in relation to the cone being deployed. Perhaps the cone hoist should be rigged so it's operated by the front bedsheet furling line or genoa halyard for those who don't furl. It would be a bit complex but sureley the cone should ascend when the genoa is deployed and descend as the genoa is being stowed and this should be made automatic? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Sans Bateau]

Its a troll, the guy is winding us up! You cant take what he says seriously.

CG1 is that you out there?

 

[Resolution]

Oh dear. Confession time. Spent the weekend frollicking around in Sunsails, lots of close racing, had a really great time. Plus the anonymity of being on one of 50 identical yachts does enable one to make a particular c**k up of berthing with no comebacks....

Relevant point is that, on our way out of Portsmouth on Friday afternoon, we motored through the small boat channel with main up (but no cone), turned right (Sunsail terminology) into the swashway, unfurled the genny (still no cone) and carried on motorsailing. Passed a yacht coming the other way (port to port, sorry, leftside to leftside) and were assailed by an old sea dog type sailing an old type yacht who appeared to be gesticulating and calling us "Sunsail Scum!" We maintained a dignified silence until he was gone, then fell to discussing grumpy old men.

From this thread it appears the "old sea dog" may have been yourself, and we may have misheard your advice re cones.

Deep grovels and repentances. I will go and stand in the corner with the cone on my head.

 

[Stork_III]

One of your rule modification is already true. The one above "No-one else is using one".

 

[jb2006]

[quote It would be a bit complex but sureley the cone should ascend when the genoa is deployed and descend as the genoa is being stowed and this should be made automatic? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Complete madness
We had a very good sail at 6 - 7 knots the other week under just the main - furling the jib was easier than reefing for half an hour of broad reaching.

Perhaps it should be a hologram that is only generated when the engine is running and not in neutral . Now there's a sensible suggestion.


Where did I stow the cone anyway ....... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Poignard]

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I will go and stand in the corner with the cone on my head.



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Sir. You had better go and boil your head!

Being afflicted with a bad dose of the flu, I did not put out to sea until Saturday morning, and then only by a special effort of will, having paid in advance for a dinner on the Hamble. Whoever was so unpardonably rude to you, it most certainly was not I. On the contrary, I am always especially delighted to see the Sunsail Armada on the water and to admire the skill with which its skippers handle their vessels and the courtesy and restraint they always show, even when being overtaken by 40 year old boats.

 

[Helina]

The other boat knows that you are motoring when you have the cone up ?

 

[Sans Bateau]

If they dont then you shouldnt expect them to know and therefore comply with any other col reg.

Buy lets not forget, ignorance is no excuse.

 

[ytd]

Well f me! Been sailing 30 years and never seen a cone. Thought that part of the ColRegs only applied in congested waters. But I wonder how the ColRegs would treat the modern canting keel boats like Wild Oats. They need an engine running all the time for their hydraulics. The engine doesn't propel them but there is no way they could sail as fast as they do (or at all) under manual power. Maybe they need a permanent cone.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

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But you have got to realise the only reason that particular yacht actuall had a motoring cone up was that it was a training boat and they had an examiner on board.

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If only that were true. Weekend before last both training yachts from my marina went by with sails up and engines going full pelt and the cone I saw was being handed out by the ice cream man at Beaumaris pier.