kengill
New member
HOLLAND!!
Colregs - Motor Sailing Cone
- Thread starter Poignard
- Start date
aknight
New member
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With what you say that you have the engine running 'just in case' makes it very difficult for others. At what point are you a sailing vessel and when are you a motor vessel? How do we tell?
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I will stick my neck out and say that the vessel is a motor vessel for these purposes. The reason being: if the motor is on and ready to use, the vessel has options for maneouvre that are not available to a sailing vessel whose engine is off.
(Of course, someone will now say, have you ever tried turning from a beam reach to windward under engine with your sails set in a F7, sonny?) /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
With what you say that you have the engine running 'just in case' makes it very difficult for others. At what point are you a sailing vessel and when are you a motor vessel? How do we tell?
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I will stick my neck out and say that the vessel is a motor vessel for these purposes. The reason being: if the motor is on and ready to use, the vessel has options for maneouvre that are not available to a sailing vessel whose engine is off.
(Of course, someone will now say, have you ever tried turning from a beam reach to windward under engine with your sails set in a F7, sonny?) /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
l'escargot
New member
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The cases that I refer to were not in particularly congested waters, but that's relative as all the Solent could be classed as congested.
With what you say that you have the engine running 'just in case' makes it very difficult for others. At what point are you a sailing vessel and when are you a motor vessel? How do we tell?
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
The cases that I refer to were not in particularly congested waters, but that's relative as all the Solent could be classed as congested.
With what you say that you have the engine running 'just in case' makes it very difficult for others. At what point are you a sailing vessel and when are you a motor vessel? How do we tell?
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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I dont dispute that, but how does another boat know?
You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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I dont dispute that, but how does another boat know?
Victorious
New member
East head to mill rythe to west pole... most weekends anywhere in that triangle is in my opinion "congested"
LadyInBed
Well-known member
So you could also say that you should have your cone up if you have your key in the ignition, as many engines will start 'at the touch of the button'!
No - sorry, sails up, engine on but not in gear, you are sailing.
No - sorry, sails up, engine on but not in gear, you are sailing.
aknight
New member
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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Aha. That'll teach me.
So in theory you could be in neutral and insist on being treated as a sailing vessel as a result, yet the next second you could put the engine in gear and, without warning go off at some weird angle that no-one on board another vessel would reasonably expect, and then be treated as a mechanically propelled vessel. Presumably, however, to avoid having the book thrown at you in the event of a collision, you'd have to keep a member of crew up forward with the cone rigged ready to hoist or lower pretty sharpish..or does the requirement for a cone only apply when there is no foresail hoisted?
You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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Aha. That'll teach me.
So in theory you could be in neutral and insist on being treated as a sailing vessel as a result, yet the next second you could put the engine in gear and, without warning go off at some weird angle that no-one on board another vessel would reasonably expect, and then be treated as a mechanically propelled vessel. Presumably, however, to avoid having the book thrown at you in the event of a collision, you'd have to keep a member of crew up forward with the cone rigged ready to hoist or lower pretty sharpish..or does the requirement for a cone only apply when there is no foresail hoisted?
Malcb
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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I dont dispute that, but how does another boat know?
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To complete the circular argument, by the use of a motoring cone /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
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You are a sailing vessel until the boat is "propelled" by the engine. You do not become a motor veseel by just having the engine running - Colregs definition.
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I dont dispute that, but how does another boat know?
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To complete the circular argument, by the use of a motoring cone /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Cruiser2B
Active member
You've made the strongest case yet for using the cone - down in neutral, up in gear.
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Having the engine running, being in neutral having the key in the ignition, having a cone up or down is all irrelevant.
What is important is that you don't and shouldn't switch from being a motor vessel to a sailing vessel to suit circumstance. Its not bloody fair on the bloke who IS sailing and then whilst observing the col regs as the good seaman does, go and find the boat 'on Stb tack' he has just given way to is motoring, or that there is any doubt about any propulsion.
What is important is that you don't and shouldn't switch from being a motor vessel to a sailing vessel to suit circumstance. Its not bloody fair on the bloke who IS sailing and then whilst observing the col regs as the good seaman does, go and find the boat 'on Stb tack' he has just given way to is motoring, or that there is any doubt about any propulsion.
Cruiser2B
Active member
Re: A smug git writes...
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could it go on the backstay? More visible in either case.
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Regulations says it goes in the fore triangle
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Not quite. Regs say "forward, where best seen." A bit subjective - I take "forward" to be less important than "where best seen." Have seen a cone up a signal halyard on the spreader; appreciated the fact the signal was there, so didn't nit-pick over its position.
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could it go on the backstay? More visible in either case.
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Regulations says it goes in the fore triangle
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Not quite. Regs say "forward, where best seen." A bit subjective - I take "forward" to be less important than "where best seen." Have seen a cone up a signal halyard on the spreader; appreciated the fact the signal was there, so didn't nit-pick over its position.
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Hi Malc,
Maybe we should have different coloured cones!
Black for motor sailing
Red for charging batteries
Green for key in the ignition
fluorescent pink for engine running, I might use it!
That would make it clear!
Maybe we should have different coloured cones!
Black for motor sailing
Red for charging batteries
Green for key in the ignition
fluorescent pink for engine running, I might use it!
That would make it clear!
Evadne
Active member
If all else fails, there's always the option of using a bit of common sense. (Rule 2b)
flaming
Well-known member
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You've made the strongest case yet for using the cone - down in neutral, up in gear.
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And yet at the same time demonstrated how impractical it is!
I'm sure my experience is fairly common, in that when motorsailing longish distances in very light winds I will fairly frequently fly the cone, more out of having something to do for 5 minutes than anything else. This situation is of course also the situation where it is most obvious that you are not relying solely on the wind and the least likely to encounter any other traffic.
However, when approaching a crowded entrance shorthanded and wishing to motor briefly I'm excedingly unlikely to hoist the cone due to being somewhat busy!
Which of course is when I'm most likely to be confused for a "genuine" sailing boat and most likely to encounter other traffic!
The motorsailing cone - a relic from when yachts had crews of 20 and a dedicated hand could be found to manage it!
You've made the strongest case yet for using the cone - down in neutral, up in gear.
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And yet at the same time demonstrated how impractical it is!
I'm sure my experience is fairly common, in that when motorsailing longish distances in very light winds I will fairly frequently fly the cone, more out of having something to do for 5 minutes than anything else. This situation is of course also the situation where it is most obvious that you are not relying solely on the wind and the least likely to encounter any other traffic.
However, when approaching a crowded entrance shorthanded and wishing to motor briefly I'm excedingly unlikely to hoist the cone due to being somewhat busy!
Which of course is when I'm most likely to be confused for a "genuine" sailing boat and most likely to encounter other traffic!
The motorsailing cone - a relic from when yachts had crews of 20 and a dedicated hand could be found to manage it!
ditchcrawler
Well-known member
I do use my m/c on occasions & it is noticeable that when on a club cruise if one person puts a cone up the rest do as well.Guilty consciences !
One of our older members has an arrangement with a permanent cone on a flag lanyard to the cross trees which he can raise from the cockpit.He does motor sail alot though.
One of our older members has an arrangement with a permanent cone on a flag lanyard to the cross trees which he can raise from the cockpit.He does motor sail alot though.
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Our mooring is on a busy part of the Hamble (is there a part that isn't busy). Yachts heading out often have the mainsails up as they motor past. I don't ever recall seeing one with a cone in this situation. OTOH it is bleedin' obvious (BO) they are motoring.
So maybe we should only really worry about a cone when it is NOT BO we are motoring. To my mind the classic Solent rig - mainsail sheeted flat and all the ponies galloping to push the boat dead to windward, or to make 6 knots in a flat clam - comes into the BO category, even to the dimmest mobo or ferry driver.
In that case us raggies only need to worry about a cone when there is wind and it's not from dead ahead. In which case WTF are we motoring?
[edit] Errrm flat calm, not flat clam[/edit]
So maybe we should only really worry about a cone when it is NOT BO we are motoring. To my mind the classic Solent rig - mainsail sheeted flat and all the ponies galloping to push the boat dead to windward, or to make 6 knots in a flat clam - comes into the BO category, even to the dimmest mobo or ferry driver.
In that case us raggies only need to worry about a cone when there is wind and it's not from dead ahead. In which case WTF are we motoring?
[edit] Errrm flat calm, not flat clam[/edit]
mel80
New member
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I'm sure my experience is fairly common.....
However, when approaching a crowded entrance shorthanded and wishing to motor briefly I'm excedingly unlikely to hoist the cone due to being somewhat busy!
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I would say that that's the complete opposite of my experience. Out at sea I never bother with a cone but I always put it up if I'm likely to meet anyone else at close quarters (especially in confined waters). If you can't spare the time, then slow down or stop whilst making your approach. Better still, plan ahead and have the cone lying on the deck ready to hoist. The work of half a minute, certainly much less time than it takes to start the engine, and no effort (even single-handed).
I'm sure my experience is fairly common.....
However, when approaching a crowded entrance shorthanded and wishing to motor briefly I'm excedingly unlikely to hoist the cone due to being somewhat busy!
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I would say that that's the complete opposite of my experience. Out at sea I never bother with a cone but I always put it up if I'm likely to meet anyone else at close quarters (especially in confined waters). If you can't spare the time, then slow down or stop whilst making your approach. Better still, plan ahead and have the cone lying on the deck ready to hoist. The work of half a minute, certainly much less time than it takes to start the engine, and no effort (even single-handed).
Robin
Well-known member
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In that case us raggies only need to worry about a cone when there is wind and it's not from dead ahead.
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That is abslutely correct, nail on the head commonsense.
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In which case WTF are we motoring?
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However there are those who feel insecure with the reassuring noise of the donk or who are closet moboers anyway! I know some people who have the engine running (in gear too) on a broad reach F5-6 'because it helps the autopilot keep control in a sea'. Mind you it was a Moody.. . Another we know has the engine running regardless of all sail set in a good breeze if crossing the Channel, a) to keep the speed up at 6.5kts b) in case a ship comes close c) so he can run radar without flattening the battery. Methinks some folks are too far from redemption, but each to their own /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
In that case us raggies only need to worry about a cone when there is wind and it's not from dead ahead.
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That is abslutely correct, nail on the head commonsense.
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In which case WTF are we motoring?
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However there are those who feel insecure with the reassuring noise of the donk or who are closet moboers anyway! I know some people who have the engine running (in gear too) on a broad reach F5-6 'because it helps the autopilot keep control in a sea'. Mind you it was a Moody.. . Another we know has the engine running regardless of all sail set in a good breeze if crossing the Channel, a) to keep the speed up at 6.5kts b) in case a ship comes close c) so he can run radar without flattening the battery. Methinks some folks are too far from redemption, but each to their own /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
fireball
New member
Should I admit to motoring to Cherbourg with reefed sails and no cone? .... On the other hand we were ready to give way to any shipping and didn't come across any other small craft till we were nearly at Cherbourg ... and then we had plenty of water without need for colregs ...
mel80
New member
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Should I admit to motoring to Cherbourg with reefed sails and no cone? .... On the other hand we were ready to give way to any shipping and didn't come across any other small craft till we were nearly at Cherbourg ... and then we had plenty of water without need for colregs ...
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That's exactly my point. Out at sea you should have plenty of warning and would be able to give way, or put a cone up long before a cone would be visable to the other vessel anyway. In crowded or confined waters, its not enough that the other guy knows that you're motoring; you have to know that he knows!
Should I admit to motoring to Cherbourg with reefed sails and no cone? .... On the other hand we were ready to give way to any shipping and didn't come across any other small craft till we were nearly at Cherbourg ... and then we had plenty of water without need for colregs ...
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That's exactly my point. Out at sea you should have plenty of warning and would be able to give way, or put a cone up long before a cone would be visable to the other vessel anyway. In crowded or confined waters, its not enough that the other guy knows that you're motoring; you have to know that he knows!