fireball
New member
[ QUOTE ]
you have to know that he knows!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm ... do you have to ask him for his RYA certificate then?
you have to know that he knows!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm ... do you have to ask him for his RYA certificate then?
Colregs - Motor Sailing Cone
- Thread starter Poignard
- Start date
mel80
New member
Good point. Unfortunately, you have to assume a certain level of competence or the system won't work. Still, on the positive side, at least if you had the cone up the law would be on your side!
ggt9
New member
So just to summarise, as I read it, what the forum is essentially suggesting is an additional part f to rule 25, along the lines of:
Vessels do not need to show the day shape mentioned above if:
* They are a bit pressed for time
* They'll only be motoring for a bit
* They are near the start or end of a journey
* They are near a harbour entrance
* They are in an area where it is forbidden to sail
* They are in an area where it is not easy to sail
* It's a bit misty and they are only using their sails to be seen better
* The wind isn't quite right to sail properly anyway
* The combination of sails showing suggests they might not be sailing
* It's hard to find one in a chandlery
* It's in a locker somewhere and might be hard to find
* There's so many other boats that it wouldn't be safe to leave the tiller to hoist it
* It takes some time and effort to hoist
* The engine is in neutral
* No-one else is using one
* The skipper knows the tired old joke about motoring cones and RYA Examiners
* There's insufficient manpower available to hoist it
* The skipper thinks it's an old fashioned relic
? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Vessels do not need to show the day shape mentioned above if:
* They are a bit pressed for time
* They'll only be motoring for a bit
* They are near the start or end of a journey
* They are near a harbour entrance
* They are in an area where it is forbidden to sail
* They are in an area where it is not easy to sail
* It's a bit misty and they are only using their sails to be seen better
* The wind isn't quite right to sail properly anyway
* The combination of sails showing suggests they might not be sailing
* It's hard to find one in a chandlery
* It's in a locker somewhere and might be hard to find
* There's so many other boats that it wouldn't be safe to leave the tiller to hoist it
* It takes some time and effort to hoist
* The engine is in neutral
* No-one else is using one
* The skipper knows the tired old joke about motoring cones and RYA Examiners
* There's insufficient manpower available to hoist it
* The skipper thinks it's an old fashioned relic
? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Poignard
Well-known member
I think that sums it up very neatly.
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
There is a flaw with this amendment though. If it was to be included in the col regs, the poor sod who is learning said regs would have a whole lot more to memorise!
fireball
New member
Except "the engine is in Neutral" can come out .... as that is already covered by the colregs in definition of propulsion ..
fireball
New member
Well - to make it easier .....
A motoring cone only need be displayed when
1) there is an RYA instructor / examiner on board
or
2) you can be arsed to find it and hoist it
better?
A motoring cone only need be displayed when
1) there is an RYA instructor / examiner on board
or
2) you can be arsed to find it and hoist it
better?
Sans Bateau
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
Well - to make it easier .....
A motoring cone only need be displayed when
1) there is an RYA instructor / examiner on board
or
2) you can be arsed to find it and hoist it
better?
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats were we started from! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Well - to make it easier .....
A motoring cone only need be displayed when
1) there is an RYA instructor / examiner on board
or
2) you can be arsed to find it and hoist it
better?
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats were we started from! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Blue5
New member
So what comes first, hoisting the cone or selecting the gears from neutral or was it the chicken or the egg /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
fireball
New member
I would've thought trying to find the blummin cone to start with would help .... actually I do know where ours is ... it's in the aft cabin on the shelf ... now ... where's that anchor ball?
fireball
New member
Yes ... but the colregs would need to be changed to reflect common usage ....
wotayottie
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Last summer I was shooting a string of pots, fishing signal up, and found a gaff rigger getting in the way. Well it was very light winds, and he had every stitch up, so I had to assume he might just be ghosting along under sail and would therefore have difficulty avoiding me. I end up with a string of pots not where they should be, and find as I turn he's under power as well. That's when I need you to fly a cone, and acknowledge basic colregs. I once had to come to a dead stop with gear still going over the side as a Dutchman crossed my bow, port to stbd, motoring, no sails up. He had come across the pond, so no slouch. And before you all start, yes my fishing signal is up all the time, but I always give way obviously and in good time if free to do so, or take it down.
Cue stories about fishermen behaving badly.
I'm not getting at you particularly, I get many more problems with commercial traffic, just bad practice/seamanship on all sides. A fisherman who had been working amongst shipping for years said to me: "What is the rule of the road out there?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Got to give you credit for cheek with that post! And its not just you who has his fishing shapes up all the time - every fishing boat does so. Many are welded up there, and of course there are the rod tripper boats that arent entitled to them in the first place - an argument that could be applied to potters too!
But you are right in one sense - there is little observance of colregs out there because colregs was never really intended to deal with this mix of large numbers of small pleasure boats with smaller numbers of big commercials. Its simply not sense to expect a 250 ft ship to get out of the way of a 25 ft yacht becauise the latter has some sails up.
I reckon the best solution is to say that anything smaller than (say) 60 ft ought always to give way to anything bigger and at the same time abandon the power gives way to sail rule. Couple that with making sure big ships have nav lights and shapes proportionate to their size and not hidden by deck flood lights
Last summer I was shooting a string of pots, fishing signal up, and found a gaff rigger getting in the way. Well it was very light winds, and he had every stitch up, so I had to assume he might just be ghosting along under sail and would therefore have difficulty avoiding me. I end up with a string of pots not where they should be, and find as I turn he's under power as well. That's when I need you to fly a cone, and acknowledge basic colregs. I once had to come to a dead stop with gear still going over the side as a Dutchman crossed my bow, port to stbd, motoring, no sails up. He had come across the pond, so no slouch. And before you all start, yes my fishing signal is up all the time, but I always give way obviously and in good time if free to do so, or take it down.
Cue stories about fishermen behaving badly.
I'm not getting at you particularly, I get many more problems with commercial traffic, just bad practice/seamanship on all sides. A fisherman who had been working amongst shipping for years said to me: "What is the rule of the road out there?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Got to give you credit for cheek with that post! And its not just you who has his fishing shapes up all the time - every fishing boat does so. Many are welded up there, and of course there are the rod tripper boats that arent entitled to them in the first place - an argument that could be applied to potters too!
But you are right in one sense - there is little observance of colregs out there because colregs was never really intended to deal with this mix of large numbers of small pleasure boats with smaller numbers of big commercials. Its simply not sense to expect a 250 ft ship to get out of the way of a 25 ft yacht becauise the latter has some sails up.
I reckon the best solution is to say that anything smaller than (say) 60 ft ought always to give way to anything bigger and at the same time abandon the power gives way to sail rule. Couple that with making sure big ships have nav lights and shapes proportionate to their size and not hidden by deck flood lights
fireball
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Its simply not sense to expect a 250 ft ship to get out of the way of a 25 ft yacht becauise the latter has some sails up.
I reckon the best solution is to say that anything smaller than (say) 60 ft ought always to give way to anything bigger and at the same time abandon the power gives way to sail rule. Couple that with making sure big ships have nav lights and shapes proportionate to their size and not hidden by deck flood lights
[/ QUOTE ]
to take your points in turn ....
A 250' ship give way to a 25' yacht with sails up ... in open water, why not? The 25' yacht is unlikely to be travelling at much more than 5 knots and the 250' ship would be doing 15 knots plus ... assuming the ship has seen the 25' yacht and is capable of manouver (ie no other interference from other shipping etc etc) then a minor alteration on his part takes little effort.
If the 250' ship had Right of Way then the 25' sailing vessel would have to take major course/speed alterations almost every time there was a ship sighted ... and passage would become very difficult ...
Then you suggest that anything smaller than 60' should give way to anything bigger and abandon the Power gw to Sail ... So ... a 61' mobo could blast his was up and down the solent expecting all the little boats to scatter ... sounds like bullying tactics to me ..
Your only sensible suggestion was to make sure that big ships have suitable nav lights ..... ah well ...
Its simply not sense to expect a 250 ft ship to get out of the way of a 25 ft yacht becauise the latter has some sails up.
I reckon the best solution is to say that anything smaller than (say) 60 ft ought always to give way to anything bigger and at the same time abandon the power gives way to sail rule. Couple that with making sure big ships have nav lights and shapes proportionate to their size and not hidden by deck flood lights
[/ QUOTE ]
to take your points in turn ....
A 250' ship give way to a 25' yacht with sails up ... in open water, why not? The 25' yacht is unlikely to be travelling at much more than 5 knots and the 250' ship would be doing 15 knots plus ... assuming the ship has seen the 25' yacht and is capable of manouver (ie no other interference from other shipping etc etc) then a minor alteration on his part takes little effort.
If the 250' ship had Right of Way then the 25' sailing vessel would have to take major course/speed alterations almost every time there was a ship sighted ... and passage would become very difficult ...
Then you suggest that anything smaller than 60' should give way to anything bigger and abandon the Power gw to Sail ... So ... a 61' mobo could blast his was up and down the solent expecting all the little boats to scatter ... sounds like bullying tactics to me ..
Your only sensible suggestion was to make sure that big ships have suitable nav lights ..... ah well ...
wotayottie
New member
[ QUOTE ]
[
to take your points in turn ....
A 250' ship give way to a 25' yacht with sails up ... in open water, why not? The 25' yacht is unlikely to be travelling at much more than 5 knots and the 250' ship would be doing 15 knots plus ... assuming the ship has seen the 25' yacht and is capable of manouver (ie no other interference from other shipping etc etc) then a minor alteration on his part takes little effort.
If the 250' ship had Right of Way then the 25' sailing vessel would have to take major course/speed alterations almost every time there was a ship sighted ... and passage would become very difficult ...
[/ QUOTE ]
I once sailed aboard a largish container vessel and manning the bridge in no more than a 6 I was amazed how difficult it was to see small sailing yachts against the background of a white topped sea. And it was little is any better on either of the two radars. It confirmed much of what the very competent German master said to me , namely that avoidance of small vessels was as much luck as skill. Even if his lookouts saw them, the reaction time of his big vessel and its turning circle was limited. And then of course there are other factors like draft and other big ships.
The same master told me once of taking a VLCC up the channel (hwen they did this), having to stick to a particular course independant of the lanes because of draft. He said that he would have had to ignore any small vessel in his way because he mostly had no room for manouevre and the disaster of grounding the vessel would be much worse that running a small yacht down.
[ QUOTE ]
you suggest that anything smaller than 60' should give way to anything bigger and abandon the Power gw to Sail ... So ... a 61' mobo could blast his was up and down the solent expecting all the little boats to scatter ... sounds like bullying tactics to me ..
[/ QUOTE ]
The cheap answer is to point out that they largely do this anyway, but why cose a 61ft power boat? Why not chose a 70 ft ferry? Is it because 61 ft power boats are inherently less worthy of respect? The marine equivalent of a large SUV? And what about dinghies at the other end of the scale? The same 61 ft power boat currently has to give way to a laser - or for that matter to a 2 ft model sailing boat!
Whether you divide at 60 ft or at a different point doesnt really matter. The issue is that regs expecting a supertanker to give way to a dinghy are daft.
[ QUOTE ]
Your only sensible suggestion was to make sure that big ships have suitable nav lights ..... ah well ...
[/ QUOTE ]
You could well be right /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[
to take your points in turn ....
A 250' ship give way to a 25' yacht with sails up ... in open water, why not? The 25' yacht is unlikely to be travelling at much more than 5 knots and the 250' ship would be doing 15 knots plus ... assuming the ship has seen the 25' yacht and is capable of manouver (ie no other interference from other shipping etc etc) then a minor alteration on his part takes little effort.
If the 250' ship had Right of Way then the 25' sailing vessel would have to take major course/speed alterations almost every time there was a ship sighted ... and passage would become very difficult ...
[/ QUOTE ]
I once sailed aboard a largish container vessel and manning the bridge in no more than a 6 I was amazed how difficult it was to see small sailing yachts against the background of a white topped sea. And it was little is any better on either of the two radars. It confirmed much of what the very competent German master said to me , namely that avoidance of small vessels was as much luck as skill. Even if his lookouts saw them, the reaction time of his big vessel and its turning circle was limited. And then of course there are other factors like draft and other big ships.
The same master told me once of taking a VLCC up the channel (hwen they did this), having to stick to a particular course independant of the lanes because of draft. He said that he would have had to ignore any small vessel in his way because he mostly had no room for manouevre and the disaster of grounding the vessel would be much worse that running a small yacht down.
[ QUOTE ]
you suggest that anything smaller than 60' should give way to anything bigger and abandon the Power gw to Sail ... So ... a 61' mobo could blast his was up and down the solent expecting all the little boats to scatter ... sounds like bullying tactics to me ..
[/ QUOTE ]
The cheap answer is to point out that they largely do this anyway, but why cose a 61ft power boat? Why not chose a 70 ft ferry? Is it because 61 ft power boats are inherently less worthy of respect? The marine equivalent of a large SUV? And what about dinghies at the other end of the scale? The same 61 ft power boat currently has to give way to a laser - or for that matter to a 2 ft model sailing boat!
Whether you divide at 60 ft or at a different point doesnt really matter. The issue is that regs expecting a supertanker to give way to a dinghy are daft.
[ QUOTE ]
Your only sensible suggestion was to make sure that big ships have suitable nav lights ..... ah well ...
[/ QUOTE ]
You could well be right /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
aknight
New member
"A vessel having one or more sails raised shall be deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to be a vessel under sail, notwithstanding that it may be mechanically propelled, unless it displays the appropriate mark signifying that it is proceeding under engine."
Discuss!
Discuss!
mel80
New member
[ QUOTE ]
The same master told me once of taking a VLCC up the channel (hwen they did this), having to stick to a particular course independant of the lanes because of draft.
[/ QUOTE ]
In which case he would have his 'constrained by draft' shape up and would be stand on vessel anyway.
Regarding your other point. Until sailing boats are required to have working engines at all times, power giving way to sail is the only sensible option. At 1knot (or even less), there is no way in which a sailing boat could depend on being able to get out of the way of a power boat doing 30 knots. As such, such a system of priorities could not be relied upon to prevent collisions.
What you are in effect saying is that big ships cannot maintain an effective lookout at the speeds they want to travel at, but that this is not their problem. I disagree fundamentaly with the latter, and my experiences suggest that the former is also untrue. Big ships have large turning circles, but they also travel at speed, thus they are almost certainly more maneuverable than a small sailing boat (which turns quickly, but at low speed).
The same master told me once of taking a VLCC up the channel (hwen they did this), having to stick to a particular course independant of the lanes because of draft.
[/ QUOTE ]
In which case he would have his 'constrained by draft' shape up and would be stand on vessel anyway.
Regarding your other point. Until sailing boats are required to have working engines at all times, power giving way to sail is the only sensible option. At 1knot (or even less), there is no way in which a sailing boat could depend on being able to get out of the way of a power boat doing 30 knots. As such, such a system of priorities could not be relied upon to prevent collisions.
What you are in effect saying is that big ships cannot maintain an effective lookout at the speeds they want to travel at, but that this is not their problem. I disagree fundamentaly with the latter, and my experiences suggest that the former is also untrue. Big ships have large turning circles, but they also travel at speed, thus they are almost certainly more maneuverable than a small sailing boat (which turns quickly, but at low speed).
fireball
New member
[ QUOTE ]
The issue is that regs expecting a supertanker to give way to a dinghy are daft.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, No they are not ... the issue of ships being able to spot the vessels they are supposed to be giving way to is another matter (that light blue/grey of the Southerly is almost impossible to spot even in the solent!!).
The master who is navigating a vessel with constrained draft should have the shapes up to indicate that ...
I chose a 61' powerboat as that is the distinction you made, if you want to alter that to the equally ridiculous proposal that commercial shipping has right of way over leisure craft then feel free ... and why you should think it ok for a large vessel to mow down a small vessel just because it can't get out of the way really worries me.
Encounters with others at sea should not be a test of how big or powerful you are, it should be a chance for a gentlemanly nod acknowledging the presence of the others and doing your best not to make the other captains life difficult ... if that means giving way when you would normally stand on then so be it ... but equally it should mean that there is equal respect from those on boats to whom F6 is a light breeze.
The issue is that regs expecting a supertanker to give way to a dinghy are daft.
[/ QUOTE ]
IMO, No they are not ... the issue of ships being able to spot the vessels they are supposed to be giving way to is another matter (that light blue/grey of the Southerly is almost impossible to spot even in the solent!!).
The master who is navigating a vessel with constrained draft should have the shapes up to indicate that ...
I chose a 61' powerboat as that is the distinction you made, if you want to alter that to the equally ridiculous proposal that commercial shipping has right of way over leisure craft then feel free ... and why you should think it ok for a large vessel to mow down a small vessel just because it can't get out of the way really worries me.
Encounters with others at sea should not be a test of how big or powerful you are, it should be a chance for a gentlemanly nod acknowledging the presence of the others and doing your best not to make the other captains life difficult ... if that means giving way when you would normally stand on then so be it ... but equally it should mean that there is equal respect from those on boats to whom F6 is a light breeze.
Evadne
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
"A vessel having one or more sails raised shall be deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to be a vessel under sail, notwithstanding that it may be mechanically propelled, unless it displays the appropriate mark signifying that it is proceeding under engine."
[/ QUOTE ]
So which tack are you on when you're steaming at 6 knots with the mains'l flapping? And do you give way to a racing boat with a spinnaker wrapped around the forestay, drifting helplessly but not displaying the correct daymark? And another thing, where does that leave a trawler steaming back to port with his fishing marks and steadying mizzen up?
I vote for leaving the ColRegs as they are, and for encouraging skippers to try and remember some of them. I find them quite complicated enough as they are, thankyou.
"A vessel having one or more sails raised shall be deemed for the purposes of these Regulations to be a vessel under sail, notwithstanding that it may be mechanically propelled, unless it displays the appropriate mark signifying that it is proceeding under engine."
[/ QUOTE ]
So which tack are you on when you're steaming at 6 knots with the mains'l flapping? And do you give way to a racing boat with a spinnaker wrapped around the forestay, drifting helplessly but not displaying the correct daymark? And another thing, where does that leave a trawler steaming back to port with his fishing marks and steadying mizzen up?
I vote for leaving the ColRegs as they are, and for encouraging skippers to try and remember some of them. I find them quite complicated enough as they are, thankyou.
Victorious
New member
thread has gone beyond realality now... with supertankers giving way to yachts..and yachts calling stbd and then motoring away in a totally different direction.
This is not how it is in my expirience.
Forecast is good again.. so I am going sailing.. (I reserve the right to be mechanically propelled as appropriate)
This is not how it is in my expirience.
Forecast is good again.. so I am going sailing.. (I reserve the right to be mechanically propelled as appropriate)
wotayottie
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Regarding your other point. Until sailing boats are required to have working engines at all times, power giving way to sail is the only sensible option. At 1knot (or even less), there is no way in which a sailing boat could depend on being able to get out of the way of a power boat doing 30 knots. As such, such a system of priorities could not be relied upon to prevent collisions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a very fair point and one I hadnt thought of.
[ QUOTE ]
What you are in effect saying is that big ships cannot maintain an effective lookout at the speeds they want to travel at, but that this is not their problem. I disagree fundamentaly with the latter, and my experiences suggest that the former is also untrue. Big ships have large turning circles, but they also travel at speed, thus they are almost certainly more maneuverable than a small sailing boat (which turns quickly, but at low speed).
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
The issue of lookout was my experience on several occasions. It surprised me at the time, and it seems to me that its an issue yotties arent well aware of. They seem to make the assumption that because they can see a big ship, the latter can see them. Yet on some designs of big ship they cannot see less than half a mile in front because of the bow. Combine that with poor radar refloectivity and bad weather and you have a recipe for disaster a la Ouzo (and many others)
Regarding your other point. Until sailing boats are required to have working engines at all times, power giving way to sail is the only sensible option. At 1knot (or even less), there is no way in which a sailing boat could depend on being able to get out of the way of a power boat doing 30 knots. As such, such a system of priorities could not be relied upon to prevent collisions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats a very fair point and one I hadnt thought of.
[ QUOTE ]
What you are in effect saying is that big ships cannot maintain an effective lookout at the speeds they want to travel at, but that this is not their problem. I disagree fundamentaly with the latter, and my experiences suggest that the former is also untrue. Big ships have large turning circles, but they also travel at speed, thus they are almost certainly more maneuverable than a small sailing boat (which turns quickly, but at low speed).
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
The issue of lookout was my experience on several occasions. It surprised me at the time, and it seems to me that its an issue yotties arent well aware of. They seem to make the assumption that because they can see a big ship, the latter can see them. Yet on some designs of big ship they cannot see less than half a mile in front because of the bow. Combine that with poor radar refloectivity and bad weather and you have a recipe for disaster a la Ouzo (and many others)