Bav 38 et al

[zefender]

Re: curate\'s egg

Charles' observations are not wildly out of sorts.

There are self-tappers through the grp and some of the interior does show more of a love for silicon filler than I would like. Some of the observations about leeway, windage when mooring, slamming and the potential danger of big saloon space, are also accurate.

But surely most of the above characteristics apply to almost every boat built in the last 20 years.

It doesn't mean that they are fit only for a sheltered marina life at under f4. If that were truly the case, then I think a much, much more radical design would have been implemented.

Of course some things are always compromised and that's part of the decision process. If I were meandering around the oceans for months on end, I probably wouldn't buy a Bav either Charles. But I'm not spending all my weekends handing round the crisps while securely tied to the ponton either!

Surely getting a big heavyweight (sorry traditional) design may suit some who go long haul but for most it's a bit like having a 4x4 in Muswell Hill - more a statement than practically sensible, given the likely conditions.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Re: Charles Reed at F4 plus

Charles,

Yoghurt pots vs concrete.

I have always followed your entries on this site with interest. I find your contribution on this topic rather curious, redolent as it is of Captain Nemo and his life long trip at sea! I see that distant, unsettled and unrequited look in your eyes - at least to judge from your turn of phrase.

For the rest of us, there are ports to be visited and socialising to be done, and sleeping on the level, and storage space, and water and fuel capacity and I could go on -oh, and there's some sailing too, but not quite as intensive or extensive as in your case. And should we be shame faced that in terms of time afloat the former considerations exceed the latter? No.

As for your type of vessel being apparently the only deck to be trusted at F4 and above, well I sense your toes itching for a nice slab of solid concrete rather than a moving GRP deck. MDL are key suppliers of such facilites - it would be sad indeed if this was now your true calling. Go on, try a yoghurt pot and surprise yourself - it'll delay your retirement, I'll guarantee!


Regards, as ever,


Peter GIbbs

 

[Twister_Ken]

Whinge about boat tests

Reread the Bav 38 test last night. Seems the sailing test was carried out in flat water and true winds between 9 and 13 kts. You could hardly imagine better conditions to flatter any boats sailing performance.

I'm not knocking the Bav here, it may sail well in more testing conditions, but how are we to know. With all the strong winds this autumn, surely the testing team can find days to take test boats out which would tell us how they perform and how they look after us in weather which is less 'brochure-like'?

But then again, maybe the test team don't like getting cold, wet, shaken, working hard to winch-in sheets, etc?

 

[nicho]

Re: Whinge about boat tests

Ken

PBO (January, I think) will carry a Bavaria 36 test carried out by David Harding recently in rather more brisk, but far from dangerous conditions - I was on it (as part of my test sail) and did some of the helming. The conditions were F6/7 with gusts of up to 33 knots, and latterly with pretty big wind against tide seas (no, not blue water stuff!), in the area between Portsmouth and Ryde - we were the only boat out there apart from the infamous Wightlink Ferry!!. From my inexperienced point of view, the boat stood up very well and sailed in a brisk, safe and dry manner - however, from his professional point of view, I'm sure david will be far more critical - it will be interesting to see......sad to say though, I can't help but feel it will satisfy you far more he reported a disaster rather than a triumph. Please bear in mind few would choose a Beneteau, Jeanneau or Bavaria if blue water sailing was their thing, but very few want to do that anyway, so why would we choose something either very expensive, or very old with high maintenance, when all we want to do is coastal cruising with the odd trip across the Channel? Many BenJenBav's do that week in week out with no problems.

Amazingly, one of the boats I considered (after much "experienced" advice) early on in the choosing process, was a secondhand Starlight 35.........!!

Cheers

Mike N.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Whinge about boat tests

Nicho,

I'm pleased to hear that at last we'll see a boat tested in the sort of conditions that pop up in the Solent quite frequently.

I'm glad to hear the B36 performed well (honestly).

One can't help but wonder whether the criticism of Benjenbavs (not just here, by any means) has got through to them, so that their newer models have sea-kindliness designed-in.

 

[JeremyF]

Me being insensitive

I know it must be a disaster for the owners of the Starlights that need a new outer skin, but I think it is proof that hand-made low-volume models aren't inherently better than Jen/Ben/Bav. For coastal cruising, their high-volume automated production gives us a great product to enjoy this type of sailing. Naturally, if I could have afforded to have spent twice as much, then I would have got a better product (presumably/hopefully)!

<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[nicho]

Re: Whinge about boat tests

Ken,

Sorry, don't know the technical answer to that, except I do believe the new Bavaria 36 and 38 have had some hull design revisions/improvements over the models they replaced, (deeper forefoot for one thing?). Anyway, it will be interesting to see the report.

By the way I quite enjoy the old v. new banter.....though I'm sure the importers of the BenJenBavs get a bit miffed about the 'criticism' of their product!

 

[nicho]

Re: Me being insensitive

Here, here!

 

[tome]

Re: Whinge about boat tests

Stopped by a Bav34 yesterday in the marina to take a closer look, can't see much to gripe about it's a fine looking boat with quality deck hardware. Wouldn't chose one for the sort of sailing I'm hoping to do in a couple of years time, but superb value for money boats costing less new than my 12 year old!

I can easily understand why people buy them, it's a bit like wine - each to their own. Look forward to the report let's hope it's not another bland bit of 'please everyone' journalism.

 

[jamesjermain]

Whinge about whingers

The Bavaria 38 was tested in Mallorca in August, which is why it was not done in typical UK Autumn weather. (You might have spotted the word Mallorca in the intro on second reading). The boat tests which will appear in March were both carried out in winds up to and beyond 30 knots and heavy rain. For reasons I have expounded to the point of exhaustion over many years, we are not always free choose the weather for our tests. I will be continuing to sail, for my own pleasure and your edification, thoughout the winter in whatever conditions come my way - as a yachting journalist and boat tester I cannot always look at a forecast and say -'not today, thank you!'

JJ

 

[davel]

Re: Whinge about whingers

A little unkind to suggest that Ken is a whinger - he's one of the more robust contributers IMO.

Anyhow, whilst I can well understand your point about not being able to control the weather (although a fundemental requirement for a yachting journalist I'd have thought /forums/images/icons/wink.gif) there is a real dilema here when it comes to testing a sailing yacht. What most readers want (I think) is to understand how the boat performs when being sailed in a range of conditions. Otherwise most of the test reports could be done from a boat show or in the marina (she has a nice galley but needs a bit more storage etc etc). I appreciate the difficulties in organising access to a test boat on a day when conditions range from flat to fury, F2- F8, but isn't this were the forum could help? Certainly in the case of "second look" reports or reports on models that are not fresh off the design board. For example, I'd have thought there'd be enough Bav 36 or 38 owners hereabouts to be able to get access to one at pretty short notice the next time the forecast looks right for a more challenging sail. By definition, the same should apply to most popular boats.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the test reports that you do and I think you and your colleagues do a good job. However I do think that theres a great resource available to you all through this forum which offers the opportunity for yet further improvement.



Dave L.

 

[Roberto]

Boat testing in the med?

Boat testing should be done in the medit, usually no prob to have F2 to F8 during the same day, if short of time can arrange to have the shift in a few hours!

 

[pandroid]

Re: Balsa core

>Oh - and what about the current trend in the quality boat and (Malos and Halbergs) to use Balsa Sandwich below the water line.<

I'm not aware that they are. The HRs only use foam (not balsa) above the waterline, and that for insulation only. There is a full spec layup on the outside of the foam that is the true hull. The thickness down at keel level is staggering.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Balsa core

Quite right - from the HR website

"The dimensions are very much the same as in older constructions with single laminate, but a single laminate is not as stiff as the boats we build today. Today we add an insulation that improves the comfort in the boat and the torsional strength of the hull.

The material used is a PVC-foam made by Divinycell. It is fitted when the laminate is still wet, and then covered by laminate. The Divinycell is a superior material for a cruising boat, compared to balsa. The PVC foam has closed cells, which means that the material does not absorb water. The different colours of the Divinycell are an indication that different density of Divinycell is used. There is higher density around the chainplates. The Divinycell will finally be covered with more laminate. "

 

[Twister_Ken]

Whinger responds

JJ - Sure, a trip to Mallorca is more fun than one to Mudslip-on-Sea, but don't the mags think that with the majority of their readers sailing the majority of their time in UK waters, tests conducted here would be more relevant? Wind over tide, just to mention one aspect. Or is it that we are so anxious to read about a particular model ASAP, that you just have to test the first one to hit the water, wherever that water is?

 

[Guest]

James - this is not a whinge!

I was interested to read your comments. Could I ask you to comment further. And bear in mind this is not a critisism of you or your colleagues. It is oft said that you never read a bad report because the magazine can't afford to offend advertisers with the truth (I precis).

Cheers

Geoff

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: Whinger responds

In this case we took the opportunity to sail the 38 in Mallorca becaue it would have been some time before we could do so in the UK. We did the same with the Bavaria 36 and our report appeared in May this year. Compare this with PBO who waited and have yet to produce a report.

Wherever and whenever we test a boat we cannot guarantee perfect conditions - say a variation of wind between, 8 and 28 knots, and sea conditions from near calm to a couple of metres. The Solent in any wind state hardly has typical sea conditions for most people. You can be sailing in a Force 5 and an effectively flat sea, or Force 4 with waves so short and steep no boat could punch through it efficiently. In the West Country I have conducted tests which haven been made a mockery because a residual swell from the south west has over-ridden the waves generated by a north westerly - result 7 knots to windward on one tack, three on the other. On one test I actually sailed a beat with the waves from dead aft, which was weird.

YM has neither the staff nor the resources to tie up a three-man boat test team for three or four days while we wait for the right test conditions. There are occasions when we will abort a test and try again later when the weather is quite impossible - either a dead calm or a full gale. I know some on this site would love us to sail every test in 38 knot winds but this would actually tell us very little about how a boat bahaves in the sort of conditions met by 90 per cent of our readers, 90 per cent of the time. Additionally our photographer would be submitted a bill for a new, £10,000 set of cameras every other month.

We have to compromise and take what we are given. This has always been the case and is the same for ourselves, all other British magazines and all those Continental and American magazines of which I have knowledge. I believe we take more trouble over our tests than most journals.

JJ

 

[jamesjermain]

PS

Strange though it might seem, I would rather travel to Mudslip on Sea than Mallorca or other 'exotic' location. The attraction of a 0600 flight from Stanstead, a dash from air port to marina, night spent sharing a twin bedded room with Graham Snook (fine chap though he is) and a test sail with non-English speaking crew who would much rather be selling brokerage boats in the warm followed by a night flight back to Stanstead and a three-hour dawn drive homed, lost its glitter a long time ago.

Of course, I can't pretend its all bad, but it is not exactly a beach holiday.

JJ

 

[jamesjermain]

Re: James - this is not a whinge!

During the ime I have been with YM we have lost the advertising of most major builders/suppliers for being outspoken in our critisism. YM is, I believe, more hared edged in its reports than any other magazine. Our freedom to report what we think is envied and wondered at by American journals

Having said that, I will admit that we probably try to find the good in a boat rather than hammer on about the negative. I believe it to be true that very few 'bad' boats are built these days. Some are undoubtedly better than others and tend to cost more. We also have to be fair to the boat and the builder. If a boat is designed and built as an economically priced, spacious boat for families to go mainly day sailing with, perhaps the occasional longer cruise (seldom involving passages of more than 24 hours), then it would be unfair to castigate it for not being capable of weathering Cape Horn in a full gale while preparing four course meals and maintaining a yard-perfect EP. Whether or not the main stream of modern cruisers - the Jenbenbav brigade - should be critisised as a whole and as a matter of principle for the assumptions they make about the needs of the modern buyer, is not a topic for individual boat tests. If it were, they would be very repetitive and even less full of specific informartion than some say they are already. We have to judge a boat against its stated purpose.

In this respect my own general view is that the Jenbenbav brigade by and large do a good job. I have considerable concerns about some of the detail of internal construction and design - Bavarias use of mastic and staples, for example, the over reliance by others on slot and tab joinery, and the lamentable design of stowage on occasions. We also refer frequently to poor detailed finishing which is down to the skill and attention of the workers rathwer than to cost.

As far as performancer and handling is concerned, I think we pased through a particularly bad patch about 10 years ago and that there has been a steady improvement in both recently. It is very easy to look back to the boats of our youth with rose tinted spectacles but lets be fair, some of the cruising designs from the sixties and seventies were pretty dire in all sorts of ways. My Pioneer 10, which was actually a good boat which I loved dearly, could be out pointed and out performed by a modern 32 footer quite easily and was a lot less comfortable in a big sea - above and below decks.

I could go on and much greater length, and have done, frequently on this board in the past but I think that's enough for now - I chopped the top off my index finger at the weekend so typing is uncomfortable to say the least (plea for sympathy, hangdog expression, moisture forming in corner of eye).

JJ

 

[Guest]

Moisture duly formed

Thanks for that.

I can't help responding to a point though. You may have noted we own a Jen Fantasia. My Wife and I have been considering other boats in order to undertake longer cruisers to the point of live-a-board status! Anyway - everybody says "lighter/younger/flatter etc boats are no good" - or words to that effect. So we looked at Vancouver 28s, Westerlies, Nichs etc "they've got much more stowage etc etc" and my opinion is moving towards "Tosh".

I haven't seen one yet that had as much stowage as Magicienne. The useable space of the older boats is poor by comparison. The "finish" below decks on Magicienne is streets ahead - Vs and Ws are dingy and poor by comparison. Above decks, Magicienne is more comfortable (I found the Nich was particularly uncomfortable - cutting into ones back).

I'm afraid that the one point I picked up about stowage led to the others!

A point I must consider are sea keeping qualities and strength - I'll concede only that I don't know. Last summer we were caught in a blow off Point de Barfleur - it was tough going. However, also caught out was a boat of clearly older design (I don't recall the type). She fared no better - indeed we overhauled her and got into Cherbourg quicker and argueably therefore safer).

Of course there are some points about Magicienne I'd change (and probably will if we do an extended cruise) but I'm not at all convinced on this "old/heavy = good" arguement which always seems to develop. (Nor do I feel the need to discard my baseball cap in favour of a Breton fishermans hat - light hearted jibe).

Thanks for taking the time with the previous long post. If you've got comments on this I'd appreciate them.

Please note - none of my comments on other boats above relate to how much we individually might appreciate boats aesthetically or "love" them just because of what they mean to us - they're not designed to cause offence.

Geoff