Bav 38 et al

[david_e]

Have just read the review in the latest YM on this boat. Is it good value or not? What else could you buy, new, for the same money and how does it compare?

And, come the day when all the long keelers & heavy displacement boats have expired, what will their owners buy to replace them? Will these Manufacturers simply tool up and start producing them?

 

[tony_brighton]

You'll be buying expensive Swedish boats instead - Malo, HR etc

 

[rhinorhino]

Cheap yes, but value for money?
Very little you could buy new for same money, but what is cost of ownership over say ten years.
After ten years I suspect value would be maybe £20/5K? Loss therefore £60K.
High quality boat will sell for 100% of purchase price, true cost nil.
In addittion it is likely that much more work will have been needed.

I agree with the reviwer about the hand-holds in the saloon, it was all I could do to refrain from ripping them off the show boat to demonstrate the piont
The list of included kit is also rather short adding to the cost.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by rhinorhino on 20/11/2002 15:32 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

I\'m not sure I agree

It has been pointed out before on this forum that Bavbenjens are holding their value (hence why buy one 2nd hand). Certainly, I've got a Jeanneau Fantasia. Looking at the asked for prices every month, I'd say she's worth slightly more than I paid for her 2 years ago.

Geoff W

 

[Chris_Robb]

Many of the long keelers and heavy displacement boats will be around long after the likes of the current bavs have expired.

You get what you pay for: I note there was a comment on the handrails - a friend of mine bought a new 38 - hand rails fell off the first day - hope they screwed the keel on properly.

 

[Guest]

Incidentally

I looked at the Bav 32 (31?) at the Soton boat show. I thought it offered quite a lot but was struck by the flimsy nature of the handholds below decks.

I would definitely consider one - assuming I wasn't planning the Vendee in it.

Geoff W

 

[30boat]

Actually they probably didn't.I had to help a friend rebuild the whole keel attachment area in his Bav 30 Plus when the bottom started to detach itself from the fiberglass floors.We had to replace the keelbolts in the process and found out they were only 14mm in diameter and there were not many of them either.Since then I have seen several other Bavs have with attachment problems.

 

[Chris_Robb]

There are hundreds of case of problems with these AWB's - Gibsea 28 Fin keeler at club - when placed on its cradle - had a concave bottom. - sold the boat and bought Bav 38 (the one the handles came off). The surveyor for the new buyer just held the boat in slings to do the out of water inpection! If only he had put some weight on the keel.

The point is that all these boats are OK until you have a minor incident (Minor for a heavy displacement) which starts the degeneration of the structure. Another case of M&G 40 hitting a rock - at 3 knots. Whole bottom had to be rebuilt. These cases plus some more are ones where I know the individuals personally. Is it just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Hold onto your Sigma

I can also quote from people I know a Sigma 33 that lost its keel when it hit the Brambles, and a Sigma 36 that cracked floors around the keel attachment when it went aground (in fairly benign conditions) on the bar ar Exmouth, So it's not just the latest, lightest AWBs that can have problems.

 

[kdf]

I don't know much about Bav's - but I do have lots of experience with late model Bens and Javs. On the whole I have found them to be pretty good. No they are not built like brick sh** houses but then most modern design boats aren't. Neither are most modern cars but that doesn't stop you driving them. My last boat was a Beneteau 40.7 and while being light, it was tough and had the best of gear. The only piece that I thought was flimsy on this boat was the sprayhood track - needs bigger screws to secure it to the deck.

No the new boats won't come off well with a collision but then again neither will most high priced Swedish boats either - One HR was lifted up 12 inches from her cradle in Ireland by the wind and dropped back again and the boat is a write-off. High prices and heavy displacement don't always mean you'll come off best.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Flat Bottoms

I think the point is that any boat which is relatively flat across the bottom near the keel section is extremly vulnerable to grounding damage. This therefore include almost every modern boat going.

You are after all expecting a flat surface to have exactly the same strength as a traditional wine glass shape - which is inherantly stronger. Coupled with the use of internal grid moldings to form the girder structure inside - glued to the hull - rather than bonded in - we have the recipe for many many wobbly bottoms to come. I wanted to buy a much lighterweight boat than I bought, because I enjoy good sailing performance. I was not prepared however to put my own money into a hull form which is inheranlty un-natural engineering when I aim to own the boat for 20 years plus.

Oh - and what about the current trend in the quality boat and (Malos and Halbergs) to use Balsa Sandwitch below the water line.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Made another post below - flat bottoms - I agree that even the most expensive modern designs are subject top the same engineering stresses.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Balsa core

>Oh - and what about the current trend in the quality boat and (Malos and Halbergs) to use Balsa Sandwich below the water line.<

Very dodgy - I've seen what happened to the balsa-cored deck of a forty-something-foot Swan, that got damp through badly installed deckfittings. Not pretty, and expensive.

There's also an interesting comment from Nauticat in one of the current magazines that it will not use cored laminates because if water does get trapped in them, and the boat has a lightning strike, the trapped water can superheat and explode the moulding!

 

[david_e]

Re: Flat Bottoms long keels

This point is well made, you also mentioned it previously Chris about 8 weeks ago when I was looking at another boat. So when with the surveyor I was interested to see that he load tested the keel whilst in the hoist. Using a block of wood to take th estrain from the centre then forad and aft he measured the movement outside and then climbed inside to do it all again and measured the movement around the furniture.

To me it looked pretty scary seeing some flex and movement but he explained that it was to be expected with a long fin and, as with many like this, where the keel is bolted through about a third of the section running aft of the bolts is fixed by the glass so to speak.

His report gave it a clean bill of health and he was professionally qualified YBDSA etc.
Thanks for the heads up on this.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Balsa core

Sooner we all stick to good engineering principles in design - the better the boats will be. We expect a boat to last 50 years minimum do we not? It is up to buyers to make up their own minds, but perhaps most are blissfully ignorant of the potential long term problems

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Flat Bottoms long keels

Some movement is inevitable - too much and this must have a long term effect on the layup, as it is not designed to be flexible! Old wooden boats were certainly not imune to this, and thus had to be supported very carefully.

I don't know if you have noticed, but all the Legends delivered to Sparks boatyard come on cradles which provide masive support to the hull, keeping the weight off the keel - significant????

Glad to hear that the surveyor did his bit on this! What did you buy?

 

[Guest]

Do we?

Why?

Geoff

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Do we? what?

Presumably you have to make up your own mind in the choice of boat. I may be totally wrong in my views - they are only my views.

 

[Roberto]

Balsa core and balsa cores

Well made sandwich construction is not to be proscribed from below waterline hull. If instead of laying the core in big panels - completely covering one grp face of the sandwich - then glass over the core the second face; if instead of this you lay the core over the first grp face in small panels, either square or longitudinal, and glass each one of them before applying the next core panel, and so on, and only at last glass the second fiber face, you will end up with a much much stronger sandwich structure, like two hulls kept together not only by the core but by glass stringers, where delamination is next to impossible and any water infiltrations are kept to a very limited part of the core (as each panel is embedded in fiberglass), preserving structural integrity.

Not sure about how/if modern sandwich builders use this method

 

[Guest]

Re: Do we? what?

No, I appreciate that Chris but I don't think we really do want things to last that long. I love looking at boats of all sorts - especially older ones but there's a balance to be struck.

If all the modern boats last for 50 years then the world would fill up with boats - we could pile 'em all up in the Channel and walk to France (save on all that nav business anyway).

On the other hand I don't like the "disposable" society either. But I don't think that most modern boats fall into that category. Mine's 14 years old and she show's no sign of age (like me!). I see no reason for that to change provided she's treated well.

Having a "turnover" of boats in the world "stock" is a good thing - bringing new ideas and innovation - otherwise we'd all still be in coracles. Having older boats to remind us of the past as things of beauty is also good.

I reckon 50 years is a bit long thats all.

Geoff